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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 328
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 07:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Re: 1966 MPW Shadow CRX 2541
In another recent thread concerning the "pump down" test, Paul Yorke gave a simple description of the various symptoms, but I have one that does not readily conform and solicit opinions.

Once the dash pressure light is illuminated, either by doing a pump down (about 20 pumps...I know, not ideal, but that is not the issue, I suspect) or by natural depressurization overnight, the light goes out IMMEDIATELY once the starter has engaged. Depending on how depressurized the system is, it was my understanding that it could take several to many seconds for the pumps to build up sufficient pressure to extinguish the light. I had also understood that if the diaphram were to be entirely ruptured, there would be pressure in the system only when the engine is running, and that under such circumstances, presumably the light would come on quickly or immediately once the engine is turned off, which is not the case. The light only comes on with a deliberate pump down, or by sitting overnight or longer.

So....what do you suppose could cause the light to go out immediately upon the starter engaging, and even before the engine has started and thus the pumps have had an instant or two to build up pressure in the system??
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2128
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 08:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

The symptoms you describe suggest a faulty pressure switch sensor/wiring which goes "open circuit" when the system voltage drops due to the starter motor current draw and the alternator is not delivering a charge because it is not rotating fast enough.

Does your car have 1 or 2 brake warning lights?

If it has two, try swapping the pressure switches and see if the dodgy warning light changes position. If so, the cause is most likely the pressure switch. If not, faulty wiring is the probable cause.

A "Gremlin alert" would be appropriate for this problem......
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1595
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 09:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Or . . If you didn't do this. you need to pump the pedal another 30 to 50 times after the light comes on.

This will fully depressurise the accumulator.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 329
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David...
Thanks for reply. Two systems. Two lights. Problem seems to be with the right light (#2 system). Forgive me though as I am not sure about the reference to "gremlin alert". What is that?

Paul...
Also thanks for input. I do not grasp how pumping another 30-50 pumps to entirely depressurize the system should be interpreted. Are you perhaps implying that if the system is completely depressurized, rather than only to the point where the possibly defective switch is operating, that the light will come on, not because of the switch fault, but because the pressure truly is low, and under those circumstances, the light should stay on until the system is sufficiently repressurized to extinguish the light...or do you imply something else? What symptoms are you looking for, or how do you expect the symptoms to "change" if I pump an additional 30-50 times to completely deplete the system?...or are you simply asking to see if "any" symptoms change?
Thanks for further clarification.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1596
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, if you only pump the pedal until the light comes on and no more, then the accumulator is depressurised to a state where it will only need a very slight top up to put the light out.

So your switch is just on the cusp of going off and a few pumps will be enough to extinguish it.

If you continue to pump the pedal, then the pump will need to pump for longer to replace all the fluid you have depleted , it will now have to compress the diaphragm and fill the accumulator before the light goes off instead of just needing a few spurts.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2130
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 08:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

My reference to a "gremlin alert" is an allusion to the existence of a problem that defies rational explanation leading to blaming a mythical character often called a "gremlin" for the problem.

You might recall a movie from the mid-1980's called "Gremlins" which was based on these characters.

Paul has highlighted an important safety issue which I overlooked in my reply regarding swapping the pressure switches. It is critical that you ensure the accumulator fluid pressure is reduced to zero before removing the presure switches - this can be checked by opening one of the brake caliper bleed screws and then getting an assistant to press the brake pedal whilst you watch the bleed screw from a safe distance wearing a suitable face shield to protect your eyes. If the accumulators are fully discharged, there should be no spurt of fluid from the caliper and you should then repeat the test on a caliper fed from the other accumulator.

Once you are certain both accumulators are exhausted, it is safe to remove the pressure switches. Always remember you are dealing with pressurised fluid which has great potential to cause eye damage if mishandled and the old Irish saying "to be sure to be sure" should never be ignored.
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 330
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 25 July, 2016 - 08:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul...
Thanks for clarifying. I tried your suggestion and now at the very least wonder if perhaps the early system varies from later systems. On my 1986 Silver Spur when the system is quite depleted from sitting for a few days and the engine is started, it can take quite a few seconds...10, 15, 20...for the pressure to build to the point where the lights go out. Maybe the pumps get worn and take longer to charge pressure? On the 1966 MPW, however, both lights go out almost immediately no matter how depleted the systems are.

This is what I found: After the MPW had been sitting for 24 hours, the #2 light came on with the ignition. While I was incorrect that the light goes out "immediately", it does go out quickly, and before the engine actually starts. I suspect that during just that brief time that the engine is turning (and my engine fires almost immediately) the pumps are immediately pumping since the camshaft is turning and those few pumps are sufficient to turn the light off. I then quickly turned the engine off and ignition back on. Light was off as expected. A quick pump or two on the pedal and the light comes back on as expected. Turn key to "start" and the light again goes off by the time the engine fires and starts. Turn engine off and then ignition back on. Light is off. Now pump once or twice and light comes on. I then follow your routine by continuing to pump. After about 50 pumps I am wondering if the #1 light is ever going to come on. Push test button. Light comes on, so it is not burned out. Continue pumping. After about 70 total, the #1 light finally comes on. I pump another ten or so. Both lights are now on.

Here is what is unusual and differs from the Spur. When I then start the engine, BOTH lights go out almost immediately even though the accumulators are both just about entirely depleted. With the Spur it would have taken 20 seconds or so for the pressure to build to the point that first one light, then the other, would finally go out.

What do you think? Is it possible that the early system pressure switches are designed go out at the first pressure from the pumps, rather than the eventual pressurization of the accumulators? That is the only scenario that makes sense as to why the lights go out so quickly. Is it possible that they are designed to illuminate when the pressure drops to a certain point (as in pumping without the engine running), but that they extinguish if there is ANY pressure coming from the pumps, which only happens when the engine is running?

Bottom line, to be verified by a proper gauge pressure test of the accumulators, is that the #1 system seems to be fine (70 pumps), but the #2 system is definately at end of service life at 20 pumps, and I should stop worring about why the lights go out so quickly. Thoughts?

David...We were writing at the same time. Thanks for that cautionary note about pressure and reference to "gremlins".
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2022
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 26 July, 2016 - 12:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just as a quick aside, when you do the pump down to depressurize the system you should easily be able to see that the reservoir levels have gone well above the normal "full" mark on the sight glasses.

Christian, I will be curious as to what your findings are with regard to pressure once you have the gauge attached to the bleed port on the ACV and have had a chance to do a full pump down and start the car again test to see exactly what's going on.

It is conceivably possible for an accumulator to lose pressure via internal leak relatively slowly, which would be another situation where an "almost instant off" could logically occur. If your pressure level is only "one or two pumps from the pump" below warning extinguishing pressure you could get this kind of behavior as well.

I have, over time, found that the theoretical behavior of the warning system for the accumulators varies, and quite a bit, from the observed behaviors even when everything is perfectly OK. My pressure lights in SRH33576 have always taken much longer than the theoretical ideal number of seconds to extinguish, even when fully charged with nitrogen, but give good pump down results and pressure gauge readings within normal limits. This is even after rebuilding one of the pressure switches.

It seems the number of things that can introduce variability in behavior is quite wide. Once I knew what "normal behavior" was on this car when I was certain that the accumulators were fully charged I simply used deviation from that as the "something needs to be checked" metric.

The ne plus ultra of diagnostics will be checking out what's going on with a pressure gauge and working from there. It is conceivably possible, though not likely, that your 20 pumps could be the result of a hypersensitive pressure switch.

Brian
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 26 July, 2016 - 04:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,
yes.
yes.

Early switches come on at a much lower pressure than spirits. Often late Spirits even have a shim behind the switch spring to make them even more pressure sensitive.

You can often get 30 pumps on a spirit after the lights come on and before the car starts to roll.

So 20 pumps as soon as the engine is turned off would not make me worry about driving it.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 26 July, 2016 - 06:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree with 20 pumps. Because if a light does come on then the sensible driver is going to stop. My jeep has a reserve of only two pumps before vacuum is gone and the brakes become impossibley heavy the hand brake is good though.
When my pipe from pump to acv burst. The brakes were still good to go and I was only 1 mile from home.

When the jeep burst the rear pipe to a wheel cylinder. The brakes were truly King awful.

My car being a sy1 has a master cylinder which although not exactly powerful will stop the car. (21%) So in the unlikely very very that both power systems blow and lose all acv pressure all at the same time. Only partial brake failure is possible. Plus the systems would have to fail at exactly the wrong time to cause an accident. So the likely hood of an accident being caused by brake failure is very small, providing of course the braking system is all correct to start with.

To check the switches on a SY1.
Screw the switch into the rear caliper bleed port, which is the master cylinder one.
Connect test lamp.
Screw pressure gauge into other caliper.
Then use the manual hydraulics to test the switch.
For SY 2
Get a master cylinder and tee piece from a breaker and make up a little test rig. Or use another car with compatible threads 3/8 UNF.

Not sure about this bit.
Given that normally the system is operating at 2700 psi. It is possible to apply enough pressure on the pedal to produce 2700 psi at the calipers, wheels difinately well and truly locked with flat spots on the tyres.
At a guess somewhere between 500 and 1000 psi will lock the wheels. So if the switch is set at say 1400 psi this will give plenty of time for the driver to stop the car.

From what I have read all that needs to done if the switches are suspect is to simply dismantle polish up the bits and reassemble.

If my car is left for a week then the both systems are dead. It takes about 90 seconds for lights out. Day to day No1 is quicker with No2 at 90 secs because the ride control has been sipping pressure all night. Saggy springs.

I was told by a RR mechanic that he has seen car stood for a month that still have some pressure in the ACV. Enough to make a mess.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2023
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 26 July, 2016 - 07:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I also agree that 20 pumps once the engine is not running is more than within the "safe to drive" range.

If you have a place where doing this test is safe, try cutting the engine on a long, nearly level surface and then making repeated efforts to stop the car in rapid succession. Pay attention to just how many attempts would have worked post illumination of the light had you just continued holding down the pedal and how many it takes before you actually have no brakes.

I think SRH33576 only ever stalled once prior to here distributor module failure during my period of ownership (which started in 2006). My accumulators were not "at peak" for quite a bit of that time, but you could still apply the brakes many times, including after the lights came on, where they were still doing their job.

I don't propose that anyone drive around with accumulators that are completely devoid of nitrogen charge or have a ruptured diaphragm. But I also don't want people to have the mistaken belief that the illumination of either one of the brake system pressure lights means that you immediately have no brakes. They are actual warning lights that the pressure is lower than it should be under normal circumstances, but not that it's absent. You do have brakes, and generally for more applications than most of us would need to stop the car.

Also, where safe, try putting your car into reverse with your foot on the brake immediately after starting the car either having done a complete pump-down test or after the car has been sitting long enough to illuminate your lights. It will stay in place long before one or both of your pressure warning lights actually extinguish. You can generally keep the car in place almost the moment you've started it as the pumps can produce enough pressure to do that.

Brian
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 331
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 26 July, 2016 - 07:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks to all for their contributions. As Robert noted, the 1966 MPW, being early, has a master cylinder which is actually a "3rd" braking system and a "failsafe" even in the case of absolutely no brake pressure. Bottom line is that more results will become apparent once a pressure gauge test has been run.

It has been over two years since I have enjoyed the Silver Cloud I and so now knowing that there is nothing "seriously or imminently wrong" with the MPW, I am inclined to defer further investigations, switch daily drivers, and get back to the Cloud experience for a while. Thanks again.

P.S. Due to the presence of the master cylinder, the "experience" of letting the car roll with no pressure and therefore no brakes, cannot be effectively accomplished since the car will be stopped by the master cyclinder "3rd" system. Nice to know that with the early cars you still have "some" brakes even with no accumulator pressure.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1064
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 04:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We worry to much about brakes on these cars you know.

I should think Elton John didn't worry about his RR brakes.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 369
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 09:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am betting your right Robert.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1603
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Claim to fame :-) . . .

My dad sold him his first Bentley. I went with him to deliver it, but I was to young to appreciate it at the time.
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Larry Kavanagh
New User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have installed 2 new accumulators and 2 reconditioned accumulator control valves on my Silver Shadow11 SRH37125. The No.1 brake pressure light stays off while parked for a number of days but the No. 2 light comes on after a day or sooner but extinguishes immediately on starting the engine. I have the height control valves set slightly high to compensate for weak rear springs and I reckon that the No.2 system loses some pressure while parked with the engine off because the weight of the car is pressing down on the HCV control levers until the car rests normally on the rear springs. That's my theory on why the No.2 pressure light comes on sooner while parked and extinguishes immediately on starting but I could be wrong, Regards, Larry.
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Patrick Ryan
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Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 372
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 01:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To bad there were no pics of you with Elton Paul.

Great memories mate.
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Alan Dibley
Experienced User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 05:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"" I have the height control valves set slightly high to compensate for weak rear springs ""

Larry, I don't follow the logic here. The springs may be slightly too short but the "springiness" (Young's modulus?) is still within specs, I imagine. The HCVs adjust for short springs and there doesn't seem to be a reason to set them high.

Alan D.
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Alan Dibley
Experienced User
Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, 29 July, 2016 - 05:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To address the exact subject of this thread:-

One significant result of a failed diaphragm is usually a lot of black sludge in the hydraulic reservoir. I think it comes from the back surface of the diaphragm which has spent years flexing against the inside of the sphere body. If there is a ruptured diaphragm and no sludge then maybe someone has flushed/replaced the fluid without recognising the problem???

Alan D.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2033
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2016 - 01:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan,

Not that I did it with the height control system (I used spring spacers) but there is an amount of sag that is enough to screw up ride height but not quite enough to activate the height control system.

You see many cars, previously including mine, with "saggy boots" that have a fully operational height control system because of this.

It's better to either change the springs or use spacers than to make the hydraulics compensate.

Also, though I won't argue with your "black sludge" statement so far as it goes, there are lots of things, particularly old hoses slowly sloughing off their interior carrier surfaces, that also result in a lot of reservoir sludge. I've dealt with several very sludgy reservoirs on cars that had accumulator diaphragms that were entirely intact. One of the reasons I'll never fit regular "rubber" hoses again, and have converted to PTFE carrier tube hoses, is that they don't break down and have a virtually perpetual service life (much like the original high-pressure hoses did, only better due to the addition of the protective sleeve over the stainless mesh).

Brian
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 578
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2016 - 05:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree Brian when I bought SRH19529 it sat up at the back like a preying Manta the springs were shot I used the spacer route for a while and later I had new springs made either of these is better than the Hcv approach.

Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1328
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2016 - 05:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have 8 used spacers for anyone who wants them, as long as they cover the mailing costs. Probably only good for someone in the US, due to international postal charges. I'll get a pic up on the for sale forum when I get the time, hopefully this weekend. They were used for a few months until I replaced my rear springs.

Geoff
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Larry Kavanagh
New User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2016 - 06:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree that raising the HCVs is not the ideal way to compensate for saggy springs but I have done it as a temporary measure to correct the ride height until I get around to fitting new springs. I was of the opinion that I could damage my universal joints if the car sat too low and furthermore I didn't like the appearance of the saggy bum. Another reason for raising the HCV levers is to keep the hydraulic fluid flowing as I rarely carry passengers or weight and as a result the height control rams are seldom activated. Hopefully I'll get around to replacing the springs soon but meanwhile I prefer the ride with the HCVs slightly activated. This car had been laid up for a couple of years which resulted in a number of hydraulic issues so now that the hydraulics are working well again I prefer to keep the components active and moving. As a result of the raised HCVs I experience the pressure warning light symptoms described by Christian in the thread starter and I believe it is caused by the HCV's gradually releasing return pressure as a result of the rear end slowly sagging while the car is parked for a long duration, Regards, Larry
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1068
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2016 - 07:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Running continually on the Rams won't damage anything. This car was designed to carry 4 and luggage and 23 gallons of petrol for 100s of miles. It also exercises the Rams.

The only problem is if the springs are seriously sagged then the Rams would be out a bit too far and as soon as you get back seat passengers the Rams won't have enough travel to level the car. And driving around with arse sagging is not a good look or good for the drive train. But one would get away with an inch.

So providing the springs are not too bad I wouldn't worry too much.
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Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Saturday, 30 July, 2016 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There is some mis-information here, the height control system does not draw any pressure when the car is stationary, unless the load changes, the valves simply open to relevel the car and then close, or they open to lower the car and return fluid to the reservoir, if you are losing pressure overnight or in a short time via the height control system it will most likely be a failure in the seat of the fast/slow solenoid valve, if this fails (and many do) fluid leaks from the high pressure circuit back to the tank, to test this undo the return line from the solenoid and block off the line (or you will drain the reservoir). Pull the fuse or disconnect the solenoid and you may see a steady drip from the solenoid return outlet.
My car sits for weeks before the lights will come on due to minor internal leaks. If there is a problem isolate the circuit to prove and then fix it as you would an electrical isssue.
Cams wear making pumps slower, pressure switches stick, both open and closed.
Many owners think it is normal to get into regularly used car and see warning lights at startup, it is not.
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Larry Kavanagh
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Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Monday, 01 August, 2016 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for that advice Martin. My No.2 light illuminates after a day or thereabouts. I've very recently replaced the solenoid valve on SRH37125 as I couldn't get a satisfactory pressure reading at the No.2 accumulator and the readings returned to within normal limits once the solenoid valve was replaced. I haven't checked for a leak at the return outlet on the reconditioned solenoid but I must do that just in case it is also defective. My theory is that the car very gradually sinks down on the weak rear springs over time when parked and this slow sagging assimilates the effect of a load increase which causes the height control lever to very slowly move downwards thus releasing fluid pressure from the rams until a point of equilibrium is reached whereby the car has sagged as far as it can go and some pressure still remains in the No.2 system. I'm no expert and the above is merely an unqualified theory but could you confirm that what I suggest is entirely impossible. I don't mind if you find my theory to be stupid, I'd prefer to have it ruled out than remain deluded, Regards, Larry.
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Alan Dibley
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Username: alsdibley

Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, 01 August, 2016 - 06:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Larry, stop worrying about the slow loss of pressure in no.2 system. There is a slow leak between the high pressure circuit and the low-pressure return when the HCV is in "up" mode. It leaks past the slider operated by the height control lever. Look at the beautiful coloured diagrams in the RROC technical library made by(?) Marinus Rijkers. There are multiple paths for slow exchange of fluid around the HCV along sliding-fit parts with no rubber seals.

Alan D.
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Martin Taylor
Experienced User
Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Monday, 01 August, 2016 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry, springs don't move (in the short term at least) unless the force acting on them changes. If low the levers will operate the valves and move the Rams to correct height at which point the valves once again close off from the pressure feed.
Possible exceptions could be the Rams fully extended but the car still low, this still should not leak back.
There are small leaks from high to low pressure internals but I find my system takes weeks to depressurise, I did rebuild the entire system to get it that way and I use the correct fluid which may or may not be molecularly thicker than ordinary brake fluid?
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Larry Kavanagh
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Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 02 August, 2016 - 08:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Alan and Martin, I think I'll check the return feed from the solenoid valve just to confirm whether or not there's a slight leak there. The brakes and suspension work well and when pressurised it takes at least 50 to 60 pumps for the No.2 warning light to illuminate. The No.1 system could take 70+ pumps before that light shows. If the solenoid valve is holding pressure properly I'll leave well enough alone and just replace the rear springs or add rubber spring assisters as a short term experiment, Regards, Larry.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 582
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 02 August, 2016 - 06:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry I live in northern Ireland last year I had two pair of springs made by Euro springs in Coalisland N I they made them from a sample that I supplied to them I fitted one set to a friends car and the other to my own car very satisfied with them.
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Larry Kavanagh
New User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 03 August, 2016 - 01:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for that info Richard, you've saved me a lot of searching, I'll give them a shout, Regards, Larry
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 584
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 03 August, 2016 - 03:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Larry If you have any difficulty with them give me a shout and I will help they might need some information as they don't normally make Auto springs.

Richard.
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Larry Kavanagh
New User
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 03 August, 2016 - 09:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

OK Richard, will do, thanks, Larry
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John Beech
Experienced User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I figured out HCV means Height Control Valve but have not figured out what ACV means. Some kind of Axxxx Control Valve, but what does the A stand for?

John, who is perplexed about a lot of 'English' words and phrases on this site and who is often baffled by acronyms as well.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2117
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

ACV = Accumulator Control Valve

It is what controls whether the fluid from the pumps is being directed to the accumulators in order to build (accumulate) pressure or directly back to the reservoir once the cut-out pressure is reached.

You will need to get used to certain acronyms such as ACV since accumulator control valve is a PITA to type again and again in a conversation.

I would advise you to use the search function on these forums and on rollsroyceforums.com and on the RROC-US Discussion Forums (if you're a member) to do your basic research on both terminology and technique. The territory you're seeking to cover, and which you need to cover, is very well trod in all three venues.

It is also well worth checking out Marinus Rijkers' Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow Pages and specifically the section on the hydraulics which includes animations.

Brian
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 03:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am getting up to speed by devouring this forum. Do you find rollsroyceforums.com to be any better than this one? I've noticed some of the same people and despite joining that forum at about the same time I find myself coming here, instead. I've been to Rijker's site previously but have not spotted the hydraulic animations. I will search further. And yes, I agree, using ACV instead of typing out the the words over and over again makes perfect sense, and by and large I can suss out the meaning of acronyms but occasionally one of these trips me up, which leads me to ask.

Finally, thank you for taking time to mention these things. You are a treasure for this site
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2313
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 03:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In 2005, Tord Samdal, a Norwegian member of the R-R/B fraternity created a simulator for the Shadow Hydraulic system which illustrates all the functions of this system - this simulator is on the link below.

application/octet-streamsimulator
hydraulics.exe (511.5 k)


Click on this link and a window will open with the file name "hydraulics-22992.unk" with options of opening or saving the file. Save the file in an appropriate folder and edit the file name to "hydraulics-22992.exe" [the number in the file name may be different to what came up in my test run].

Right mouse click on the file and select the "Open" option, you will get an "Open File - Security Warning" or similar appropriate to your browser saying "the publisher could not be verified - are you sure you want to run this software?". Select "Run" and the simulator will appear and can be started from the "Start Engine" button and you can then play with the various operating conditions by selection the various buttons in the simulator. You can also scan the file with your anti-virus software if you wish before running it.

If you have problems running the file, please let me know and I will put it on Google Drive with restricted access to those with the link provided by me by PM through the Forum.
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 04:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

The link says it's an .exe but in actuality it's to a .unk file and I cannot go any further with it.

http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/hydraulics-22992.unk
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2314
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 04:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

I was editing my original post without deleting it after my test run revealed the file was downloading as a "unk" file and not the original "exe" file.

It took me a little while to work through the problem and the procedure detailed above should now allow you to view the simulation.

If not please advise.
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 04:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmm, I'm still getting a message to effect that I have chosen to open a .unk file and asking with what program I want to open it. Ad when I went to Rijker's website and found the link to the anuimation (http://www.rrsilvershadow.com/Best/HydraulikkPro.exe) I got a 404 Error. Since it's a small file ~500KB, perhaps you could email it to me directly?
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2315
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 27 November, 2016 - 04:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

You do not need to select a programme, just edit the saved file name to "hydraulics 22992.exe" and then follow my instructions above commencing with "Right mouse click on the file and select the "Open" option, you will get an "Open File - Security Warning" or similar appropriate to your browser saying "the publisher could not be verified - are you sure you want to run this software?" Select "Run" and the simulator will appear and can be started from the "Start Engine" button and you can then play with the various operating conditions by selection the various buttons in the simulator. You can also scan the file with your anti-virus software if you wish before running it.".

If you are still having problems, please PM me an email address and I will send the programme to you.

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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Monday, 28 November, 2016 - 02:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear David,

I didn't even run the virus software on it because of my level of trust and respect for you. Basically, I renamed the existing download from .unk to .exe and it started right up. Many thanks!

Finally, do you have contact information for the talented fellow who devoted himself to creating this? I wish to communicate my thanks directly.

Last thing, my direct email address is: info AT genesishobby DOT com

And my cell phone number, on the off chance you wish to speak with me directly, is (407) 302-3361 and note, I do actually sleep and we're on GMT -5 (Orlando, same as New York City) so between 6AM and 11PM Eastern is generally acceptable for personal calls from friends.

John, whom if your ears are warm it's because I am thinking very warm thoughts!
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2317
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 28 November, 2016 - 09:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi John,

Have not heard from Tord Sambal for over a decade since the demise of the Swammelstein Shadow Forum. You can be certain I thanked Tord appropriately from all of us at the time as I helped check the programme for him when it was under development however it was entirely his work.

You can expect a call from me sometime next year from North Carolina where a long-time family friend [2 generations old forged during the dark days of 1942 when his father-in-law was wounded in the first US Army action in New Guinea by the 128th Battalion of the famous 32nd Division [Red Arrows] and repatriated to Australia for medical care] lives - a friendship formed between our parents has continued to the next generation of both families.

My partner's grand-daughter is a Harry Potter fanatic and has been promised a visit to Harry Potter World at Universal Studios in Orlando hence our reason for going to Orlando during our visit to the US.

Australian have a tradition of helping their mates in times of need and that is exemplified in this forum where that help is extended freely and unreservedly to R-R/B custodians and enthusiasts no matter where they live in the world. You are one of many who have shared this experience and will continue sharing as long as we can continue the forum with the support of participating/contributing members.
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Monday, 28 November, 2016 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, put this in your mobile:

John - Thanks for contact information however I respectfully suggest your interests are best served by not disclosing it in a publicly accessible location as not everyone in our world is as honest and considerate as we are. I have saved the information and deleted it from your post. We normally exchange this information privately using the Forum private messaging facility.

With the address, you can get driving directions. Anyway, please give me a heads up (e.g. keep me in the loop instead of showing up unexpectedly). Believe me, you are very welcome. Also, you and who else? And how long will you be in the area? Oh, and 'when' next year? What month?

Finally, I am only beginning to get plugged into the local RR scene. By then I'll be able to show you around and introduce you to a few folks. Thus far, one drinks rum, another bourbon. Me? I like my whisky neat. We all like to bullshit. Suspect this last is an occupational hazard amongst automobile aficionados.

Last thing, I'll take offense if you get too busy, or 'forget' to visit if you're in the area, and this after traveling half-way around the world - capice?
}}
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2321
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 28 November, 2016 - 03:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

Our visit is currently at "it seems a good idea" stage as schooling and other family considerations have to be taken into account when finalising our plans.

I have committed to the proposed Forum get-together in the UK next September for my partner and I subject to my successfully restructuring my current responsibilities beforehand in the first half of next year.

You can be certain we would never turn up unannounced and will always have transport and accommodation organised beforehand so we do not inconvenience anyone. I have simple tastes in liquid refreshment, a good, cold beer suits me right down to the ground thanks to our Australian climate and I have many stories [mostly true] to share as I have had a very interesting time and experiences thanks to my life and employment moving around the length and breadth of our country. My weakness is a good bottle of port after a good meal with interesting company.
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 70
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 29 November, 2016 - 04:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

While I'll drink the odd beer here and there and keep it on hand for the occasional friend who imbibes (a British customer who became a friend and while he resides in Bermuda, shows up sometimes, immediately comes to mind), you'll have to introduce me to port. Anyway, I very much look forward to meeting.

John, who well understand life's unexpected twists and turns
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2326
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 29 November, 2016 - 08:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John, if I introduce you to a good vintage port, please do not blame me for your subsequent addiction.

Port is an old-fashioned liqueur made from red wine and high-quality brandy named after Opporto in Portugal some centuries ago when the blending was used to preserve red wine for shipping to England. The English aristocracy found the "preserved" red wine was an excellent after-dinner drink and the rest is history. Port was very popular here when I was growing up and Australia makes some excellent ports especially the Penfold's Grandfather and Great-Grandfather tawny ports and the Seppelts range of Para vintage ports. Unfortunately, mass marketing of other commercial liqueurs has resulted in a decline for port sales and the younger generation have no idea of what they are missing .

As for beer, the US has finally caught up with the rest of the world and your craft breweries are making beers that are the equal of the best in the world. My friend Steve in N.C. and I have many memories of our craft brewery visits in Australia over the years and finding little-known beers that were absolute treasures. Steve has a craft brewery crawl organised when I visit which I am really looking forward to however my ability to travel afterwards might be somewhat restricted.....
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 29 November, 2016 - 01:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Agreed, I accept the consequences ;>)
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Tord Samdal
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 139.164.160.141
Posted on Tuesday, 31 October, 2017 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen!

I coincidentally came across this forum thread where you discussed the computer animation of the hydraulics system that I made some 10 years back. I am so happy that it has been useful to you!

I also made another animation a year or two after the hydraulics, this time of the ACU system that you are also free to download if you wish. It is all on this site:

http://www.samag.no/silvershadow/

I suppose it should all have been updated a bit, the graphics is a little bit primitive, but I suppose I'll have to postpone that to some kind of retirement project (which means some 4-5 years from now).

Happy motoring!

Tord - who is still alive and well, and member of the Norwegian branch of the RREC and the proud owner of SRH7073

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2715
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 01 November, 2017 - 06:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Tord and a huge Australian welcome to our forum - please join us as a member.

As you might recall, I posted links to your Shadow hydraulic system simulator on several international R-R/B forums including our own and, as you are aware, the simulator has been greatly appreciated by many Shadow DIY custodians over the years including myself.

I am certain the ACU simulator will also be similarly appreciated.

Thank you for including us and we hope you will join us as a member.

Kind regards
David
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1932
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 01 November, 2017 - 09:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Todd,

I think your animation is very period and CWA of these vehicles :-)

Thanks.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1835
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 01 November, 2017 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Tord

Many thanks for the additional animation of the ACU system. I hope you will be joining this forum.

Regards

Geoff

BTW - Great photo on your web page.

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