| Author | Message | ||
     Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 234 Registered: 4-2015 |
Given that filling the cooling system is a bit problematic in order to be sure that air pockets are removed, has anyone devised a system for pressure filling the system? The filler cap is on the top tank and any coolant added only slowly trickles down into the main radiator core and engine block thru the tiny line (approx 1/4" ID?) that goes from the front of the top tank down to the top of the radiator and the almost equally small (approx 1/2" ID) line that connects from the rear of the top tank down to (presumably) the water pump housing. The main problem area seems to be the horizontal hose that goes from the thermostat housing to the radiator. It is difficult to get that cavity completely full of coolant and that area seems to persistently retain an air pocket. Until the system is full, and when you squeeze it, it most certainly feels empty. I notice that it is necessary to add coolant to the top tank at the rate of about half gallon (two liters) at a time which fills the top tank. Then I go around to the thermostat side of the car and vigorously squeeze the noted line which seems to assist with draining the coolant out of the top tank. Repeat procedure as necessary. Eventually the system becomes full (presumably) which can be evidenced by squeezing the horizontal thermostat-radiator hose and when that squeezing action causes coolant to burp out of the filler orifice, I am presuming that the system is maximally full. It seems to me that a better procedure has been, or can be, devised? What I would be inclined to do is to cut and insert a filler "T" connection to the water pump to top tank line to which a pump device would be attached to inject coolant into the system. Considering that the thermostat is closed, and but for the "jiggle pin" opening which is presumably intended to allow air to be purged thru the thermostat, the thermostat presents a blockage for coolant to flow past that point. However, when fluid is injected thru the waterpump to top tank line, it would flow first to the water pump housing and thence into the engine block in one direction, and in the other direction into the radiator thru the lower radiator hose, thus filling both the engine block passages as well as the radiator core. As the radiator core fills, the coolant will eventually find it way up into the top tank and when it flows from the filler cap neck, the system has been effectively completely filled. What am I not seeing here, why would this not work, and why has such a system not been incorporated into the design by Crewe?? Obviously this system is not appropriate for "side of the road" filling, but rather home use only. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1551 Registered: 6-2006 |
Because Shadows are easy to fill. Make sure the small hose is clear. Fill sliwlyish. Park or put the front left wheel on a kerb or block if you like. Fill away. Heaters on hot. Keep topping up. Run for 30 secs. top up, run again, top up. Nothing clever needed because the filler is the highst point. If you want to fill it hi tech or make a meal of it, buy a vacuum fill kit. Nice on Seraphs, necessary on GTs. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1282 Registered: 5-2012 |
Christian Are you sure you haven't got a blockage somewhere. I have changed my coolant twice over the past 3 years and it's just a case of pouring coolant into the header tank. It fills quickly, although in keeping with the handbook I always pour slowly to minimize air pockets. Running the engine burps out any trapped air and I then top up. One thing I always do is measure the amount of coolant I've drained from the rad/engine/heater matrix so I have a good idea of how much needs to go back in. (about 16 liters). Geoff | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 235 Registered: 4-2015 |
More info on this "vaccuum fill kit"? How does it work? Where available? How connected? As to the problem at hand, what works for others does not seem to work for me with the P.O.S. Shadow I have just purchased. What blockage is suspected? There are only two ways for fluid to get out of the top tank (other than filler cap). Is it possible that the connections to the top tank may be blocked inside the top tank and that is why fluid only VERY slowly flows down into the radiator core and thermostat horizontal hose? They at least appear to be free, but I suppose I should remove connections, inspect, blow air thru to be sure, etc, to be sure. Something is not right and the repetative "squeezing/burping" method seems to be the only solution. Of course, starting the engine gives the same effect, but it still has to be doen repetatively and rather than starting and stopping the engine and refillng, I alternatively employ the "squeezing/burping" method. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 1032 Registered: 9-2004 |
As you say "Something is not right" As Paul says "Shadows are easy to fill" From my previous posting on this. "if ok I would do a Cylinder leakage test to make sure the head gaskets etc are ok. If ok check the flow through the rad it may be blocked causeing excess heat that goes to the highest point steam valve header tank. As you state the electric fan running all the time fault should not let the engine at idle" run hot.Guessing with cooling faults with this and that can be a costly excersize. | ||
| gordon le feuvre Prolific User Username: triumph Post Number: 118 Registered: 7-2012 |
Shadows were never problem to fill, as PAul says fill,run and recheck. I always try my hardest to leave a car overnight and then recheck cold. Shadows will always take some more. As a general none model guide I always look for small diameter hoses as these tend to "clog up" at point where they fit fit onto hose connection, whether on rad or engine. Remember to always set any heater tap tap open prior to filling. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 236 Registered: 4-2015 |
I will check both hoses to be sure clear. Manual says to also disconnect the shift cut out in the fuse box. I assume that is to prevent accidentally shifting into gear while starting and stopping the engine during the purge? Makes sense as a precaution. Opening heater tap is to be sure that you get the heater core filled as well? Manual says to put AC control to "DEF"? I bought the Shadow since I thought it might be time for me to graduate from the Prewar and EPW cars (my preference due to simplicity and driving fun...you actually have to "drive" them!) up to a "modern" car....which the Shadow certainly is, but I now miss the "simplicity"...open radiator cap, fill, close cap. Done. | ||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2010 |
Hi Christian, Yes, the shift cut-out is just for safety. Yes, opening the heater tap is to fill the heater core. Turning to DEF will open the heater tap even if it is warm out. I would suspect a partial blockage in one of your small hoses. FWIW, fluid is supposed to go down the medium-sized hose. The smallest hose is the air bleed to allow the radiator to fill from the bottom, pushing the air out the top and into the header tank. Cheers, Jeff. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 681 Registered: 4-2009 |
it has been said before - but I need to say it one more time. Is the radiator blocked? From what you say - it sounds like it is. I would take the bugger out and do a thorough inspection/clean. If the radiator was free flowing, you would have no trouble filling up the system. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1948 Registered: 6-2009 |
I'll add to the chorus: Changing out the coolant on a Shadow is a drain out and pour in affair. While a little air can be trapped at the very top of the system in the upper radiator hose (if one is using the OEM thermostat or a Stant with a jiggle pin transplant rather than a simple "flow-through" hole) it self burps on the first run and all you have to do is top off. There are no gyrations of any kind necessary to fill a Shadow cooling system. Having done it several times now on two different cars I can safely make that statement. Also, removing the radiator from these cars is, relatively speaking, an easy task. It's simple to take the grille off and, with a bit of assistance, it's not hard to get the hood/bonnet off, either (and provided you mark the exact position of the hinges on the bonnet, it's easy to get it back on again perfectly, too). Brian | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 239 Registered: 4-2015 |
Omar, Brain, and all... Yes. That advice was not immediately clicking with me for a number of reasons. I had to an extent not wanted to hear it. When I took the plunge to buy the car, I really did not anticipate (due to time, age, health, et cetera) buying a project car, or even one that would have a new problem every time I drove it. I paid quite a premium believing that the car had been "completely workshopped". Having the seat adjustment switch and most especially the radiator top tank burst within the first 10 miles and hour of use, really left a bad taste. It was like marrying a pretty face only to find that she was a neurotic crack addict. To come to the realization that the cooling system needs to be debugged was not on my horizon. I have yet to be able to even drive and enjoy the car. Adding insult to injury, the neurotic crack addict does not even what to have sex, so to speak! Having gone thru the purgatory of putting a cooling system right with the MPW coupe a few years back and never coming to a satisfactory conclusion, I can see that the task can be a money pit. The car is, accordingly, for sale and I now realize that my temperment is more suited to the more predictable mechanics of the Pre-Shadow Era. Accordingly, I will likely avoid pursuing these other solutions unless absolutely necessary. When I get the replacement top tank, I will install it and see what changes on the theory of doing one thing at a time. I may attempt to do a flow test on the radiator, or hook up an auxilliary temp gauge, but will leave all else to the new owner. | ||
| richard george yeaman Grand Master Username: richyrich Post Number: 515 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Christian I am sorry to hear all about your troubles with this car I wish you well. What about taking a break from it for a while I am sure these problems can be sorted out with a bit of time. I received this advice from a man years ago when I was having troubles with my business he told me to cut one tree down at a time instead of the whole forest it worked for me. Good Luck. Richard. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2072 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Christian, Also remember the old adage "when you are up to your eyeballs with alligators, it is hard to remember your original objective was to drain the swamp"!! My suggestion is also to put the car aside for a few days, go on to other things and come back to it after successfully completing a number of other tasks for the same reasons as suggested by Richard above. I have found this very successful when I have been in similar situations. Also remember the car temperature gauge is only an indication of temperature and not an absolute measure. you can calibrate it by placing a thermometer on the thermostat housing and comparing the thermometer temperature rise after starting the engine from cold against the vehicle gauge so you can drive your car with confidence knowing exactly what the gauge display means for the coolant temperature. This would also be a means of finding out whether the sensor is faulty or not. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Prolific User Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 243 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Yes, I can appreciate the method. The problem here is that the gauge variation between cold and hot is too compressed on the gauge. Ideally on a scale of 1 to 100, "1" should be the temperature in the morning when the engine is cold and "100" should be the "you have a BIG problem" end of the scale. In this case on that same 1 to 100 scale, 1 is the cold in the morning point, and 10 is the "steam is blowing everywhere" point with the aforenoted readings of 235F at the thermostat housing and 210F at the radiator core. This is complicated by the likelihood as pointed to by Omar that there is inadequate circulation, possibly due to plugged radiator, so what happens is that when the engine is shut down, all that latent heat generated by the hotest part of the engine, the cylinder liner walls, causes the now non-circulating coolant to rapidly increase in temperature and that is when all the boiling and steam really starts to be forced out thru the cracked top tank. Sorry if I am getting old and my memory of life experiences is playing tricks on me, but an earlier comment during this episode where I was noting something about not turning off a hot engine, but rather to flush the radiator with water first, was actually (upon reflection) a misrecollection of what I was told years ago (previous life time, it seems) when I drove diesel long haul trucks, which was to let the engine idle for a few minutes after coming in from a run in order to allow the coolant to continue to circulate and dissipate that heat created by the combustion chambers. I suspect that something similar is happening here. Normally, with a proper and freely circulating system (not plugged up and marginally circulating) that latent heat gets dissipated thru the volume of the entire coolant system, even while not circulating by the water pump, but in my situation, since it cannot circulate thru the marginal radiator, it gets trapped on the engine side of things and the system gets even hotter after engine shut down than it otherwise would...compounding the problem. It is after shut down that the fluid (about a gallon) is lost by being pressure ejected thru the cracked top tank, and under these circumstances, that is when I get the really high readings at the thermostat housing. Even so, when observing the dash gauge, that even hotter circumstance is reflected on the gauge as only the slightest increase in the needle position. In short, the gauge works, it is just that the total scale from cold to really hot is too compressed in terms of the total span available on the scale...1 to 10 only, on a scale of 1 to 100. Sorry to make a short story long. | ||
| ross kowalski New User Username: cdfpw Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2015 |
Might be good piece of mind to get https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/669708/00469 and make sure the head gaskets are intact. |
