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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 203
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 04 June, 2016 - 06:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, the honeymoon with my new Shadow II was short. First shakedown/familiarization cruise this evening ended badly. While playing with the "8 way" seat adjustment knob and trying to experience which way it would adjust the seat, something broke (switch failed to self center probably) and the motor would not turn off. Panic! No matter what I did with the knob, the motor just kept running with the "click, click, click" of the limits of the motion reached. I pulled to the side of the highway, yanked off the seat cushion and could see the threaded rod merrily revolving. I had no idea what to pull off to get it to stop and while fishing for a flashlite and then a coin to open the fuse tray that I am totally unfamiliar with, hoping that there would be a dedicated fuse I could pull, the motor finally stopped. Probably burned itself out although no smoke escaped from either the wiring, or the motor itself, so at least I do not have to worry about getting one of those "handy dandy Lucas smoke recharging kits" that were recently linked in another thread! Upon returning home I read the owner manual, found the fuse, and it is not blown. Manual says there is an overload cutout but does not say where located. Hopefully the cutout is what finally stopped the motor. We will find out tomorrow after everything cools down. A more calm examination of the under seat cushion area does not reveal anything that looks like a reset button. Any suggestions?? I am beginning to understand why I have always loved my EPW Silver Dawn and Silver Cloud. Simple mechanisms without all that electronic circuitry. Never break. Ideas??
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 252
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, 04 June, 2016 - 07:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Are you sure the switch didn't just finally re-centre itself? The wiring diagrams don't show a cut-out for the seats, just the two fuses (right and left).
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 205
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 04 June, 2016 - 08:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff...
I wish it were so. The motor is now dead, or at least the cutout mentionned in the owners' manual has not reset yet. With the engine off and ignition switch "on", manipulating the passeenger switch energises that motor and the ammeter shows an obvious discharge due to the draw from the motor. If the same is done on the driver side (that had the problem)the motor does nothing and the ammeter shows just the slightest blip, probably simply the switch activating. The motor is nonfunctional.

By "self centering" maybe I misspoke since the switch does move freely and appears to be spring loaded and it does appear by feel to return or self center back to the neutral position. It is just that in doing so, the electrical connection transmitting the signal current from any of the eight positions does not turn off. I suppose more accurately, the switch self centers but does not turn the electricity to the motor off, so it seems that the switch is the culprit even if not the self centering action of the switch. Think of a simple "on-off" light switch where you turn the switch on and the light comes on, but when you turn the switch "off", the light stays "on". Defective switch leading to a burned out motor, unless the cutout did its job. Of course I am simply speculating. The worst is that I simply now have a non-adjusting seat! Like I said, the honeymoon was short! Bought a Shadow and the adjustable seat worked for all of 30 minutes!
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 206
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 04 June, 2016 - 08:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oops...keep forgetting to give chassis number. It is 1979 Shadow II SRK37338.
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Patrick Ryan
Prolific User
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 224
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Saturday, 04 June, 2016 - 08:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That's a real bummer Chris.
It's one item in my car that does not get used every time I use the car.
When I am getting the car out of the garage, I have a pre flight check list that I go through while waiting for my wife, if she is coming with me on said trip that is.
Absolutely everything gets powered up or used, even the rear Demister, and all cigar lighters.
Unfortunately the seats do not get moved as I have them perfectly aligned in fore/aft position and tilt.
The only things we move on the odd occasion is the seat back tilt lever if the wife or I (if she is driving) is having a nap.
As we know, these cars do not like not to be used, however I break my own rule every time by not moving the seats.
At least you didn't suffer from smoke or anything worse.
I hope it's just a simple fix.
Seat motors are very cheap second hand.
Don't be put off by this.
Your Shadow will give you terrific service.
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 209
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 09:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Re: 1979 Shadow II Chassis #SRK37338

Gentlemen...Update. Good news and not so good news. Today with everything cooled down, the thermal cutout...yes, there must be one somewhere...had reset. Upon turning the ignition switch to run and supplying electricity to the mechanism, the motor resumed its whirring. Therefore good news is that the motor is not burned out. Cutout did its job. Flicking the adjustment switch in the hopes that the stuck "off" mechanism would free up did not work. Temporary solution was simply to pull the #10 position fuse, effectively turning "off" the flow of electricity. I now just have to live with the seat in its current position.

So...the question is now: How does one get that center console apart in order to access that switch for replacement?

Center console
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Patrick Ryan
Prolific User
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris,
Good news that's for sure.
Can't help I'm sorry about the console, but in regards to the seat mechanism can you adjust or turn it manually with the seat cushion off?
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 212
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 02:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Perhaps. I would hope so. I will have to observe what happens on the passenger side because it is not readily apparent where the adjusting gadgets are.
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Patrick Ryan
Prolific User
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 227
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 03:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good plan mate.
I was looking at some seat frames on the net, and they look like they will be easy to move/adjust
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 214
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 06:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick...Took the time to check it out, and it is more complicated. Really strange system. The motor makes a single shaft turn and there are electromagnetic devices through which the shaft passes. Current to the desired electromagnet causes the device to clamp onto the rotating shaft and transmits that rotation to the linkages that adjust the positions. What "might" be possible is to unplug the cable from the passenger seat and run jumpers over to the driver seat connections and thereby use the passsenger "switch" to control the driver seat. What a hassle though! Probably more expedient to simply take the console apart and replace the defective switch!! Now...if I only knew how to take the console apart!!!
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Jean-christophe Jost
Experienced User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 06:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Christian,

Maybe not relevant to your car but on my 1976 SY (SRH25085) I had to remove first the ashtray cover then the ashtray box and then the switches pannel could be just lifted, no clips no fasteners.

See link for details - hope this helps
http://www.icipay.com/MyShadow/autoDB/show.php?action=fiche&id=35&l=
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 215
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 08:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean-Christophe...
Thanks. That certainly looks like it. You're my hero. I'm busy writing a legal brief for the next few days, but am looking forward to getting back to the problem once that's out of the way. I appreciate the link. Great photos! A photo is worth a thousand words, as they say!
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Patrick Ryan
Prolific User
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 230
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 05 June, 2016 - 08:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gents
This is why when I display my 2 cars together (25 Chev & 72 Shadow) I always say to onlookers.
"Here is the most simplest thing made by man (the Chev) and here you have the most complex thing made by man)
We all laugh, but I deep down know it's true
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Jean-christophe Jost
Experienced User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 01:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Christian, I'm happy to help and proud also because very often discussions in this *great* forum are too expert for me to join. Take in account that each seat motor (if like SY) is run by two relays : one working the motor clockwise and one anticlockwise. Complex indeed. Good luck!
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 217
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 06:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I attempted to take a look at the service manual posted in the tech library (TSD4200) to see what it might reveal about the seats. The section on "body" is split into two pieces, but regretably neither contain sections "S10" for the seats. The second section stops at "S8". What would be the third section for "body" seems to be missing. Any ideas where else it might be found in the library? I suppose that I am old school and really do prefer paper copies of things so will be on the lookout for the printed manuals. Ebay, I suppose.
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 218
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 07:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The seller/dealer suggested that the relays may be the issue. I fussed with them, tapping and disconnecting feed wire on and off, swapped them around, but that made no difference. Switch still seems to be the likely culprit. When moved to various positions, it does not cause any of the "grabbing gizmos" to grab onto the rotating shaft. Trying to hotwire to the "grabbing gizmos" would probably damage something else, so not going to try that. (or would it?)

From observation of the idea of making a jumper harness, it is not as easy as hoped as the wires that control the "grabbing gizmo" seem to come straight out of the harness from the switch and without any connectors that can be tapped into. Did not have time to try disassembling the console to access the switch. Next time.
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Patrick Ryan
Prolific User
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 233
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris has invented a new part name.
"Grabbing Gizmos"
Just need a part number now
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 223
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 08:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I finally found the section describing the function in the electrical part of the manual...where they refer to the gizmos as "clutches". In any event, they serve to grab onto the revolving shaft in order to make the linkages move so perhaps "grabbing gizmo" is more evocative than "clutch"!

Jean-Christophe was correct about the ashtray. It just lifts out and the switches are visible thru that opening. I'll have a better look at things tomorrow or next day.
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Patrick Ryan
Prolific User
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 236
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 08:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,
Would you consider posting some pics of your Shadow II in the thread titled "photos of our cars" in the Silver Shadow Series section?
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 308
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 06 June, 2016 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian, when I had a seat switch on my Spirit fail, as a temporary bodge, I disconnected the motor connections on the passenger side, lengthened the wires and connected them to the drivers side motor etc. Worked until I could deal with the switch fault.
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 224
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 07 June, 2016 - 06:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mark...Thanks for the idea. In your case, was it the motor that failed, or something else? I will as time allows in the next day or two send a photo of the area. While there is a detachable connector to the motor, the balance of the loom from switches to relays and to the grabbing clutches is hard wired and without convenient loom disconnects. There appear to be wire spring clips of some sort (also illustrated, but not explained in the service manual) holding the clutches together. It is not readily apparent how the catches are released so as to unscrew the feed wires to the cluitches and the fear of the unknown cautions me from proceeding with what may, or may not, be a simple and straight forward disassembly. The wires to the clutches could then be switched over with the aid of extension splices to the other switch. Anyone know how the clutches come apart? The manual is vague at best.
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Mark Aldridge
Grand Master
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 309
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 07 June, 2016 - 06:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian, it was the switch that failed, I had to cut and splice the wires.
Mark
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 07 June, 2016 - 07:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mark...Thanks for confirmation. After an observation of the circumstances, I would prefer to not cut and spice all those wires. In my case what I was envisioning was making a jumper loom (about 4 wires as I recall) for the motor and then make jumper wires to energize the appropriate grabbing clutch, but rather than cutting the wires, I would prefer to unscrew from the passenger clutch and add an extension wire to the similar clutch on the driver side.
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Jean-christophe Jost
Experienced User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 08 June, 2016 - 06:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

I think the issue in your case is more likely to be solved by checking what is wrong inside the switch (could be a stucked contact blade needing some cleaning or lubrication).

But if you happen to work on the clutches, they can be opened by pulling the wire springs on both sides, this will release the clutch "lid". But then be really careful if you go further into the clutch because there is a tiny spring seen here on the picture. This spring is magnetized in some way, but it can also "pop up" when you open the clutch.

As to the wirings they are connected with 6BA (or so) nuts.

Inside Clutch SY1
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 228
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 08 June, 2016 - 04:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean-Christophe...
Thanks for the photo and tip. So, there are clip wires on both sides of the clutch? Do they pull straight out, or rotate up? How much force is necessary? Not knowing what direction to pry, pull, twist, rotate, or how much force is needed to overcome the spring tension cautioned me to not even try...because of those "spring" things that always lurk and pop out to confound the unsuspecting, if you don't know what you are doing!

Yes, I am sure that the problem is in the switch. I was only needing to get into the clutches to unscrew and release the wires. I will look closer again in light of your information and see if it really necessary to open them. It was all in the name of jumping over from the functioning switch, but in the end, simply fixing the broken switch may be the preferable and more expedient solution. Right now the overheating and defective radiator top tank is the priority. Thanks, though, for sure!
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Jean-christophe Jost
Experienced User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 08 June, 2016 - 05:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christian,

(please remember my car is a SY1)

First picture shows you the underside of the lid so that you can visualise how the clips are fitted.

You can just pull the clip wire by using needle nose pliers. The clip is robust but the clutch 'lid' is not. So you can secure it with 'grips' while removing the clips.

Once the clip is removed on both side you can pull up the lid.

As to the wirings, from what I could see, they 'disapear' under a black isolating tape and are certainly soldered (?).

SY1 clutch lid removal

SY1 clutch lid removal

SY1 clutch lid removal
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 230
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 08 June, 2016 - 06:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean-Christophe...Really appreciate your photos and tips. If mine is the same...probably...then I will not be able to disconnect the wires at the clutch and had better just concentrate on the switch...although having come this far, I would be remiss to not at least open one, so that I can then say "I did that"!

I edited one photo with an arrow to show where I was planning to pry as it appears that the clip snaps into a groove in the body at that point. I theorized that a screwdriver under the clip at the corner, preferably both corners at the same time, and prying it "up" would snap it out of that groove and then allow it to rotate towards the top. I can see that pulling the side tabs out may be more expedient, and now I have a better idea of what is going on.
Christian

clutch clip
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Jean-christophe Jost
Experienced User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 08 June, 2016 - 07:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

The wire is not meant to rotate over the top of the case because it is not long enough. You just have to pull the side tabs in the direction indicated by orange arrow in order to release the clips.

PS if you do open the clutch 'for sport' and before you do so be warned that refitting the microspring is part of the Houdinis.

(good luck with your tank also !)

SY1 clutch lid removal

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