| Author | Message | |||
     Richard Greene Experienced User Username: benzjag Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2012 |
In a separate thread, I posted I have to replace one of the brake pipes in the brake 1 system on my 78 Shadow II. The pipe to be replaced is located in the center of the car behind the transmission. My question is I need help in bleeding the system. I assume I will not have to bleed the brake 2 system. I know I need to start the car and have constant pressure on the brake pedal. What points in the brake 1 system need to be bled? I have a quart of RR363. If I need more, would it be ok to use dot 4 brake fluid with the caster oil or should I order another quart of 363? Please excuse my elementary questions! I never had to the system. Richard 1978 Shadow II | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1891 Registered: 6-2009 |
Richard, See the attached technical supplement on bleeding the brakes. You can still ignore anything related to bleeding any intermediate bleed points. If you bleed the appropriate locations on the calipers those are the endpoints of the system and if you've got no bubbles there it's because there's nothing but fluid coming through ahead of them. In the opening couple of paragraphs it tells you which caliper locations correspond to system 1 and system 2 supplied. You will never get agreement on the use of YAK363 (90% DOT3 or DOT4, 10% castor oil). I use it as do others, and have had no issues doing so. You must make your own risk assessment based upon what you've read and who and what you choose to trust and act accordingly. Brian
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| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1522 Registered: 6-2006 |
How much fluid have you lost? A quart is not much for these cars. Unless you have changed the fluid in the past year or so I would bleed both systems. And if you haven't cleaned the reservoir in the past 4 years I would do that as well first. Bleed with dot 4 until clear. ( The callipers do not need 363 but the rest of the system does. ) Once clear, Bleed briefly with 363. Personally I only use 363. | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 622 Registered: 4-2009 |
Words of wisdom from Brian as always. One thing I have done in the past when I have nobody to help bleed the system is to use a long see-through bleed hose and connect it from the bleed screw to the reservoir. Then press on the pedal and let the hose fill up with return oil making sure you keep the reservoir topped up. When the hose is full then the hose will keep the reservoir topped up and you can bleed for as long as you want. Make sure the hose is a tight fit on the nipple and make sure the other end is secure in the reservoir. All too easy. Omar | |||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2016 |
That's a great idea Omar. I will use that next time while bleeding the daughters brakes. For me, the first and last time I asked a semi drunk neighbour who didn't know the difference between a brake pedal or accelerator pedal. For a few minutes I was freaking out why nothing was happening at rhe bleed nipple. | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2035 Registered: 4-2003 |
Omar, good idea however my concern would be the possibility of dumping old degraded fluid back into the reservoir and contaminating the fluid there. I would suggest letting about 100/200ml depending on the length of the pipe go to waste to purge the old fluid out of the system before putting the later released good fluid back into the reservoir. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1892 Registered: 6-2009 |
Several asides based on the last couple of posts. If you have any friends who work in a hospital or care facility where they use vinyl tubing to deliver oxygen, this makes excellent clear bleed tubing and is thrown away by the thousands of feet every month. Since this is "upstream" of the consumer there is very, very little worry about any pathogens. It fits snugly over the bleed nipple, you can see everything, and you can just pitch it afterward. Patrick: Does your daughter drive a Rolls-Royce or Bentley? I ask only because ours are relatively rare in having a positive pressure built in to the braking system and just having the brake pedal depressed means that fluid will be being actively pushed (so long as the accumulator hasn't "gone empty"). I'm with Mr. Gore on the "waste a bit of brake fluid" attitude. I always put a set of catch bottles under each wheel that allow me to run back and forth as necessary. I just put a weight on the brake pedal to keep it depressed. Even then, I tend to focus on one bleed screw at a time following the steps in the instructions I've posted many times (and that are an extended step-by-step version of instructions originally sent to me [or posted] by Richard Treacy). Brian | |||
| Patrick Ryan Prolific User Username: patrick_r Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2016 |
Hi Brian. No mate, even thought she drives mine often. It was a 2003 model Kia Rio, so just a standard bleed after a full brake overhaul. | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1231 Registered: 5-2012 |
Patrick You trust your Rolls with your daughter!!! - lol. Actually, I had to leave my Rolls in my son's garage when I left Las Vegas for Cleveland Ohio. It was there for 10 months. It's only recently I found out he was using it to go to college in. Apparently it got a lot of attention. I have never had an occasion where I could recycle brake fluid. As a result, I've always found hydraulic work to be expensive, due to the amount of RR363 that has to be used. Hence my intention to move over to the dark side at the next change (YAK363). I have a piece of wood, cut to the right length to keep the brake pedal pressed when bleeding the brakes. It jams between the depressed pedal and the base of the drivers seat, with a protector in place to prevent any marks. Geoff | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 625 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear All, I always end up dumping all the old fluid before i get to the bleeding stage. I assumed that this step would be par for the course. We have previously all bought into the idea of complete hydraulic oil changes every 2 years based on experience. As a consequence you only bleed when the system is ready for use. My mistake for not clarifying. Thanks for picking it up guys. Omar | |||
| h_kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 211 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi all,I have a quick question re flushing brakes with dot 4 fluid before adding RR363. I have comma dot 4 brake fluid from Halfords it's synthetic, is it ok to flush out brake system the fact it's synthetic?. Any advice welcome. Thanks in advance. Ps got the RR 363 from Opieoils.co.uk got 8 litres at 20 euro a bottle including vat delivery etc.locally I was quoted 37 euro a litre | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1724 Registered: 6-2006 |
I think they have started putting synthetic on the label because it sounds better. DOT4 should be made to DOT 4 standards and can be used for flushing through. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2209 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul Yorke is correct. DOT3 and DOT4 both are synthetic brake fluids. It's become a marketing tool since synthetic oil took off (and, yes, in the case of motor oil there is something there). A quick web search on DOT3 and DOT4 brake fluid will find you enough reading material from trustworthy resources to keep you reading for a long time. DOT3, 4, & 5.1 are glycol ether based fluids and can be mixed with each other without issue (which is different than saying they all will work the same way in a given application). DOT 5, by contrast, is silicone based (also synthetic) but cannot be mixed with any of the other types. Even though this is from a mountain biking site, it's worth looking at for a good, accurate overview: http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/resources/faq/difference-between-dot4-and-dot51-brake-fluid/ Brian | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1567 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian On a related note, have you a preference for DOT3 or DOT4 when making YAK363. It occurs to me all the testing you and others have done is probably with DOT3. If this is the case then presumably it is safer to use DOT3, since this is the mix which has been more widely tested. Geoff | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 2210 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Several people I know who make YAK363 have used DOT4 as their base. What's interesting, if you dig a bit under the surface, is that a number of DOT4 formulations will have a lower wet boiling point than certain DOT3 formulations. This is controlled mostly by the additives used rather than the fluid base, which is the same for DOT 3, 4, & 5.1. I personally doubt that it would make much difference whether one used DOT3, DOT4, or "super" DOT4 (which is supposed to have boiling points higher than regular, but not nearly so high as DOT 5.1). I have only use DOT3 myself since it's the easiest thing to source. It's not that DOT4 is rare, but it's just not as ubiquitous as DOT3 fluid is. I've also used different DOT3 fluids over time - Prestone DOT3 and SuperTech DOT3. Every one of the fluids (Girling Crimson, Green, & Amber) that were used up to and including RR363 with the Shadow Era cars were, I believe, all DOT3 spec fluids. I know RR363 is, but it's hard to dig up info on the earlier Girling fluids that I'm willing to rely on. Brian | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1568 Registered: 5-2012 |
Thanks for the info Brian. For anyone interested, here is the link to the castor oil supplier for model airplane engines that John Beech mentioned a while ago: http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmart.exe/IndexText/FSIGCO001.html?E+Sig John surmised that this castor oil was less likely to contain additives as it was sold purely for engine lubrication purposes. I can confirm I have ordered a quart of castor oil from this company and received said product within a few days i.e. great service. Geoff | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2016 |
Omar - Brilliant. If I had thought of this before, I would have saved litres of fluid. I am now almost looking forward to bleeding my system. Another question on the subject that I am sure has been dealt with somewhere: If I want to renovate my reservoir, how would I treat the surfaces. I know they were originally cadmium plated, but not sure if that is available anymore? Knowing how aggressive brake fluid is with any type of paint makes me wary of painting of any sort. How about galvanising or some sort of chroming, which is available to me? | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1014 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Patrick, We are in synch here mate. I am doing exactly that myself!!! I have taken a spare reservoir and had it nickle plated. The reservoir looks great now and I am starting to get the newly plated reservoir installed when I next have a window of opportunity. I am hoping nickle plating is ok - if its not someone please tell me before I install it. It is easier to strip off the coating now than after installation. | |||
| Larry Kavanagh Experienced User Username: shadow_11 Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2016 |
Regarding YAK 363 I use DOT4 as a base because DOT3 is no longer available in Ireland. I get a half litre of medical grade castor oil from my local veterinary supply store. | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Omar I am in contact with Macdermod about the resistance of zinc coating to brake fluid. Will let you know when I get an answer. My guess is that zinc is the best plating to use because it can be plated quite thin. Anyone please: About YAK 363, am I right in saying that the only two issues are the lubrication of metal to metal contact in the hydraulic system (quite a lot of that!) and the deterioration of the seals, or is there something else? | |||
| Robert Noel Reddington Grand Master Username: bob_uk Post Number: 1266 Registered: 5-2015 |
Normal DOT4 isnt oily enough and the addition of 2% to 15% castor oil is added. There isnt as much metal to metal contact as implied the main being the pumps and the rear rams. The various valves seem to be fine on straight DOT4. The seals are not effected by DOT4 only and are the same as other marques of cars with DOT 3/4 systems. Bleeding the brakes is very easy on a SY2. Remove gearbox relay from fuse board. Start engine allow to idle until brake pressure lights go out. Apply brake with stick between steering wheel and brake and open caliper bleed nipples any order will do and then go round again. 100ml from 8 nipples, so at least 2 litres of Yak required. | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Omar/All I have not had a reply from Macdermid, but have been speaking to Alan Gilligan (coatings ltd) http://www.agilligan.co.uk/ about plating methods for the brake fluid reservoir, who is an expert in the field. He says that plain zinc plating is not sufficient for anti corrosion protection against brake fluid, and what is needed is a Nickel zinc plating made up of 12-15% nickel and the rest zinc. He says this is better than cadmium. He has a landrover defender that he has been protecting in this way for years. I will be sending him pictures of my reservoir which is in a state at the moment (I have a not very good replacement on the car at the moment)so that he can advise further and quote for. I will let you know. He has sent me pictures of 3 different finishes - clear, yellow and black. He is very amenable and easily contactable if anyone wants their own peace of mind. I know later Rollers had plastic reservoirs - anyone know if these were interchangeable? | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Omar Alan just sent me an email saying that Nickel plating is no good for this use. He didn't say why. Maybe you would like to drop him an email and enquire before you install yours? Alan Gilligan <alan@agilligan.co.uk> Hope this helps. He is in the process of quoting me for doing the container and all its bits with nickel zinc. | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1025 Registered: 4-2009 |
Many thanks Patrick. I will do that. Omar | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2016 |
Hi Omar/Guys Below is the answer fro Alan with a quote of £100 to do all the bits and container. I will be going ahead and will let everyone know how it goes..... "Hi Patrick, thanks for those pictures, we shall very carefully fine shot blast all surfaces particularly the larger items to uniform the metal condition/appearance. Then pre-treat and zinc/nickel plate + passivate, please can you find out if the original passivate was a clear or yellow colour, the clear on cadmium would have been grey/blue looking. The attached shows our zn/ni and colours, please be aware that your parts will not have a shine/reflectivity. A question on your 2 mesh strainers, please check that the mesh maybe brass and soldered onto the fittings, no probs if they are brass, I just need to pre-treat them slightly differently otherwise the brass will dissolve !! Thanks Alan. n.b. the 2 domes are what we zn/ni clear pass for a network rail customer, you can see the non-blasted inner surfaces do have some sheen to them but the shot blasted outer surfaces do not, this is considered by network rail up to 50 year lifespan finish !!" | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2016 |
The state of my reservoir at present - will send "after pictures" when it is done!    | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1584 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Patrick This is a topic that really interests me (and I suspect others as well) as the reservoir on my car is starting to look a little jaded. I was surprised at the quote of 100 gbp. I thought it would be much more expensive than that. It would be great if you could put a photo of your reservoir when it has been re-plated. I am ready to overhaul the brakes on my car. I have all the seals for the calipers etc, so this will be a great time to get my reservoir re-plated. I was intending to do this work over the winter lay-up but find I cannot force myself into the freezing garage to carry out the work. I must be getting old - lol. I will wait until spring arrives. Geoff | |||
| John Beech Prolific User Username: jbeech Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2016 |
Too cold Geoff? You pussy! May I suggest you move back? -- John, who is suffering through another FL winter where it's presently a near unbearable 74°F ;>) | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1587 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi John Lol. Yes, we do intend to move back eventually. Oklahoma is not too bad, generally in the 40s and 50s, but too cold for me these days. Geoff | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1732 Registered: 6-2006 |
Or wedge the brake pedal down and open the nipples VERY slowly. Once flowing it is fine, just the initial surge I'm thinking front uphill will allow more fluid to the rear. | |||
| Jeff Cheng Frequent User Username: makeshift Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2016 |
The 'bleed back into the reservoir' trick is useful to bleeding out air once you know the system has new fluid, without wasting new fluid. Usually done after new bits are installed and you are still chasing a soft pedal. Regarding Brian's tip to just bleed from the calipers; being the end points in the system, does anyone know the fluid capacities of the accumulators and calipers. I ask because I just did a 'flush' over the weekend, cleaning and refilling the reservoir (Yak363), then just bleeding at the calipers. I bled ~200ml out of each caliper, and was wondering if that was enough to replace the old fluid left in the system with the fresh stuff from the reservoir? On a side note, a member (and RR owner) of another general car forum I frequent has been in touch a chemical engineer with samples of RR363 and various YAK363 mixtures for some testing and analysis. We are all eagerly awaiting results, which I'm sure will find their way back to these forums. | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2016 |
Update: Pictures of my reservoir in the process of being renewed.   . | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1172 Registered: 4-2016 |
Huge improvement there Patrick. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. | |||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 1635 Registered: 5-2012 |
Thanks for putting the pics up Patrick. It will be interesting to see the final result. Looking good so far. | |||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 1116 Registered: 4-2009 |
looks great Patrick | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2016 |
Latest on my reservoir process. It is now complete. Some dark patches due to conductivity and solder fill. Considering the state that I sent it to him in, I am more than happy with the result.     . | |||
| Patrick Francis Experienced User Username: jackpot Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2016 |
   . | |||
| Patrick Ryan Grand Master Username: patrick_r Post Number: 1190 Registered: 4-2016 |
Looking good mate. Just got to fit it up now | |||
| Jeff Young Grand Master Username: jeyjey Post Number: 310 Registered: 10-2010 |
Indeed. Well done! Cheers, Jeff. |
TSD4287 Brake Bleeding Supplement