| Author | Message | ||
     Nigel hawcroft New User Username: nigel Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2004 |
Sorry,No toolkit with car SRH36390 SS2 Could someone please enlighten me as to the size of key I require to remove the Oil sump Plug as I wish to give the Old Lady a Festive Oil Change Merry Xmas Nigel | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 507 Registered: 4-2003 |
Buy a standard 14mm 3/4" drive Allen key socket as shown below. NOTE: this is a metric size. Many people think that it is a tapered 9/16“ size but it is not. If you buy a 9/16“ one (=14.3mm), you will need to dress (ie file) the end to make it fit, and even then it will not be quite right. Also, many people advocate replacing the plug with an inferior conventional hex-head one. Don’t even think of it. This is dangerous with the alloy sump, as a steel plug will strip it after a few changes. Also, the Allen key type saves you the humiliating risk of dropping the plug and washer into the waste oil pan. The same size fits your final drive filler and drain plugs too. Many Mercedes-Benz and BMWs even have the same size transmission, engine and final drive Allen fitting also, so you are not alone. RT. Socket  Spanner assembly: use a new washer, and tighten with a torque wrench of course.  | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 508 Registered: 4-2003 |
Pardon my mistake: that is a 14mm 1/2" drive Allen socket of course. RT. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 298 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard you sent me scurrying to the calipers. Co-incidentally I had a Shadow 'short' adapter on the bench which I usually use and a 'stubby' version supplied with the Clouds. The former measures 13.37mm and the latter 13.14mm yet both have the same drain plug and both tools are loose in the drain plug apertures! A 14mm key would seem to overcome this. I also do not use the Factory supplied washer but prefer one supplied by Champion Plugs which is thicker and slightly larger on the outer diameter. I have found a number of cases where the drain plug has been tightened so much it has 'brinelled' the washer forcing it into the recess across the top of the plug threads. And PS all the best for the Season wherever you are | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 299 Registered: 4-2003 |
And PPS Nigel - keep an eye on eBay under Rolls-Royce - tool kits are always coming up there! | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2003 |
I own a 14mm socket, and it only fit in the first 1/8 of the allen "hole". It seems to be at least 1/4" deep, so slightly filing 1/8" of the tip on an angle allowed it to fully bottom out. My original plug was in perfect undistorted shape. I've gotten many emails from people confirming the same thing after purchasing a 14mm allen socket. I've never said nor heard anything about 9/16". I have offered the hex head plug & washer, and have changed oil a number of times without wear or filings in the thread. Like most things, don't overtorque. I apologize for disagreeing, but I'm only going by personal experience, and verbal confirmation. Larry tbird@consultant.com  (Message edited by david_gore on 13 October 2008) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 510 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well, Larry, All I can say is that I have been changing the oil on these cars since 1970 using a 14mm Allen socket. R-Type, T-Series, Turbo R, Silver Dawn, and even my BMW. I have never had a problem, nor have I ever slightly damaged the brass plug. I find this system far superior to a hex head, and would never use a steel fastener in an aluminium thread. That is why our alloy V8s are helicoiled in every thread apart from the sump plug. You got me curious. Here is a 14mm Allen socket fully home in the sump of my Turbo R 5 minutes ago. RT.  (Message edited by david_gore on 13 October 2008) | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 179 Registered: 9-2004 |
Do correct me if i am wrong. To do the sump plug you need a 5/16BSF hexagon tool the same size as the one supplied in the tool kit. The size of the rear diff plug is 13/16AF hex. Not much room from memory,so the RR one in the tool kit is best if you can get one to use with a flat 1"AF ring spanner. PIX of kit.  RR Hex Tool  (Message edited by david_gore on 13 October 2008) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 511 Registered: 4-2003 |
Pat, You are possibly correct about the BSF sump plug size, but a 14mm Allen socket fits perfectly. I prefer the Allen socket: you can distance yourself from the oil flow with two extension bars, and the plug comes away with the socket assembly. It does not drop in the waste oil pan. If you DIY as I do, you would often either burn yourself taking the plug off finally by hand, or need to fish the plug out from the hot waste oil pan (ie no hoist, so no waste oil drum with mesh neck for a simple DIY oil & filter change) without a socket type. You are correct that the two diff plugs' hex size on Shadows and later is different from that of the sump, but it is certainly not 13/16": it is smaller than the sump plug hex, which is slightly smaller than 9/16". From memory they are both 1/2" AF. Earlier cars (Mk VI etc) have the same size plugs for the diff and engine sump, 14mm. RT. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 180 Registered: 9-2004 |
Tool kit RR Hexagon.  | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 39 Registered: 9-2003 |
As I mentioned, my brass plug on my '89 Spur was in perfect shape as well. I only changed it for the convenience. I have removed it, and put it back a few times to be sure, with no wear or filings.(Nor have I heard of any problems from anyone I've supplied the hex-head to.) Of course, as the pan threads are aluminum, you'd always need to be careful with torque. (makes no sense to overtorque the brass plug either as you can't be sure the plug would be damaged and not the pan). As I have been offering the hex head ones, I've been in a position to hear from owners of many cars, and have gotten similar stories of the tapering. If all these (and mine) are wrong, again I apologize for disagreeing as my intention is not to misdirect. I wonder if anyone involved in choosing this item for Rolls would tell us the details. Larry tbird@consultant.com | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 182 Registered: 9-2004 |
Larry at the risk of getting some stick. Quite frankly my opinion is if you have a good hex plug and the correct RR hexagon tool keep useing it. It will only give trouble if it has been over tightened and seized in the first place or the incorrect tool used. The type you supply are ok in a alloy sump with all that oil providing they also are not over tightened or the incorrect type of spanner wrench socket used. Have a great Exmas. | ||
| John Dare Experienced User Username: jgdare Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 |
Well after all this and all that, methinks I will ask my friendly engineer to make some hexagon NUT plugs from BRASS!. Cant see a specific torque figure in the book, but I guess "about" 30ft/lbs?. But whatever, I will be sure to use my tension wrench having checked it for calibration against an old spring balance just like I used to see as a youngster whilst down at the corner grocers shop with old aunt Millie. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 512 Registered: 4-2003 |
Mr Book says that Sir Sump Plug likes: 34-40 Nm 3,5-4,1 kgf m (commas for Phillistines East of the Channel and West of Hong Kong) or for those in the Real World: 25-30 lbf ft (sic) (25-30lb-ft). With a dash of course. Mind you, only for brass monkeys. Steelies are out for the count. Merry Christmas. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 184 Registered: 9-2004 |
Maybe we will never need to undo the plug. Soon i am imformed world directive: oil to be removed by licenced premises by means of Vac pump. All oil issued and stored by the above due to the many folk tipping oil down the drains etc. Have not tried to see if it will work on a SS through the filler. Ho Hum, Happy Christmas. | ||
| John Dare Experienced User Username: jgdare Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you Richard, for your confirmation of my "guess" of around 30lb/ft etc., for the sump plug. In the new year I will ask my machinist friend to make up say 24 pcs. in order to achieve economies of scale. Who knows..they might be a steel. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 513 Registered: 4-2003 |
But Pat, Our bonnets are sealed for life anyhow, are they not ? | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 514 Registered: 4-2003 |
JGD: good idea, but make that 23. I bought a spare brass Allen type in 1971 based on Volvo 164E stripped steel hex head experiences, but have never needed to use it. The three ships are a-sailing-in as my computer goes "ding". Carols from Kings College are keeping me up. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 185 Registered: 9-2004 |
Tim ta pute taa glis awy em toad,chirs, | ||
| John Dare Experienced User Username: jgdare Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2004 |
In all this merriment, I have overlooked mention of the all important sealing WASHER. Rather than use any old washer with my new "2005" brass hex. nut, I think I will advance to the type available from Lode Lane (near Birmingham I believe) being a kind of two "tiered" construction (a la some spark plug washers) BUT with an added raised "spur" which assures good compressibility/"nip" etc; no weeps/seeps/drops or drips. Of course one must remember to torque up using the special boxed tool as cross checked for accuracy against an old dusty but "trusty", grocers spring balance scale as kept down under the bench with all of the spiders. Meanwhile, off to Christmas dinner I do go. Enjoy!! | ||
| whunter Grand Master Username: whunter Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sad to note that most Silver Shadows I see have lost their tool kit, and the sump drain plug is corroded from Michigan winter road salt, used to melt snow/ice from road. Many Silver Shadows in the USA are third or more owner cars. The ones that scare me, typically come from cheap auctions, or used car dealers. Fact: There is NOTHING more expensive than a cheap Rolls-Royce or Bentley!!! | ||
| John Dare Experienced User Username: jgdare Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2004 |
I agree and now propose a "Double Indemnity" (patent pending) BRASS sump plug which I envisage to be a robust hex.nut "head", incorporating the traditional internal/recess hex. meaning that neither I or future "custodians" will ever be in need of the "correct" spanner and everyone will hopefully live happily thereafter. | ||
| Miguel A. Garcia Experienced User Username: magarcia Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hello, I have bought today an 14 mm Allen socket and unfortunatelly, it does not fit in. It is a bit bigger than the hole where it has to fit. Otherwaise, i have tried with a 12 mm Allen socket and it "dances" in the hole...may be my SRH3430 has a different sump? it is not a brass one. It seems to be not metric size, but in inches... Also, I have seen that SRH3430 has the old way oil filter. I thgink this has an interior filtarnt paper element. is this one better than newer blinded filters? is it possible to change of one of this one or has too be done some modifications? Thank you all for the help. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 769 Registered: 4-2003 |
So, some clown has swiped your brass drain plug. Unless the OD has been enlarged because some fool stripped the thread, better get a new standard brass one pronto before the steel one does strip the alloy sump thread. Search this site for sparkling gems on fitting the SSII spin-off oil filter housing. Despite the rubbishing I get from the spin doctors, I have cars with both types and don't really care whether it's a spin-off or not. They all do the job. I always open them up anyhow to check the debris, and the spin-off varieties need a hacksaw to do that, negating any percieved benefit. Oil filter deposits give early warning to many looming problems. RT. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 422 Registered: 4-2003 |
Back to the original sump plugs. I have had a number of these things drip despite torgue tightening and new washers. I think the problem is over tightening and actually flaring the flange so we don't get nice neat flat flange on flange gripping/sealing surfaces nicely sandwiching the aluminium washer. I have yet to get one to my fitter/turner man and see if my suspicion is right. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 770 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, Perhaps you could publish details on that excellent alternative washer you gave me in January ?? | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 436 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sorry I have not replied but Champion (of spark plug fame) among many other bits make quite a range of aluminium washers and one of them fits the sump plug beautifully. It is slightly larger in O/D but thicker and seems to give a better seal than the genuine. They retail for about a dollar each and are available here in any Autopro or Repco shop. Incidentally just bought a new sump plug for a little over a hundred dollars. My suspicions re flaring look to be justified!!! Pictures later. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi all - a real beginner's question for you. I'm about to change the oil for the first time - with a 14mm hex socket. Does the screw in the sump turn CLOCKwise or COUNTERclockwise when it is being undone? I don't seem to get any movement at all either way but don't want to put too much pressure on it if I'm undoing it the wrong way. with thanks, as usual. Jeff | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Frequent User Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ah...got it. Counterclockwise as you're lying on the floor looking up at it. A bit of WD40 and a length of pipe helped. Now for the mysteries of the oil filter ! Jeff | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1016 Registered: 4-2003 |
Gosh reading back through these posts was a bit like going through the family photo album. Noting my urgings for the Champion 1" washer, I sent one to a professional guru who condemned it because the aluminium was too hard. The factory version is certainly softer. I'll still use my Champion ones as they do the job. A couple of weeks ago the new owner of a Corniche and I attempted to undo its sump plug. Two of us grunting could not dislodge it. I believe that had we persevered we could well have ripped the whole plug assembly out of the sump. The solution was to spray the plug with one of these freezing solutions and then the thing came out no problem. The vagries of the hole size in the plug of course comes from the whole item being cast and the hole not being broached. If it was it would be cheaper to change the engine rather than bother with the oil! | ||
| Mernon Lollich Experienced User Username: mernon_lollich Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2005 |
I too have just re-read the posts in this thread - veeerrry interesting! The plug on my '79 SWII also required filing down the 14mm philips wrench/spanner I bought for it. The 14mm socket-type one I bought for the '58 Cloud works well with only a trace of looseness. The ali washer was indeed squashed, and the plug was quite hard to remove (think Kroil). I'll have to look into the Champion one that Bill mentions. Mernon LSJF72 | ||
| Paul Yorke Prolific User Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 224 Registered: 6-2006 |
Ok, You'll either love this or hate it. I use a TORX socket. Can't remember the size off hand but will look when I'm in the workshop IF anybody wants the size. I can feel people frowning from here but . . . The TORX fits into the corners of the HEX so it is not trying to spread the centre faces of the HEX and therefore does not make it tighten on the thread if you need to use a lot of force. Bill is correct with regard to varying sizes of HEX hole in the plug, but I think that there may be another cause as well as the casting issues. When the plug is overtightened the thread tries to pull the flat head of the plug into the hole. This ( I think ) concaves the flat and makes the HEX a tighter fit. When you use a HEX on it next time it spreads the plug and makes it harder to remove. Overtightening it also makes a slight taper on the 'square' inside sealing edge so you then need to tighten it even more next time to make it seal. ( a vicious circle forming there?) I've seen Sump plugs with 5mm or more of a dish in them. Bin them if you find any like that. As mentioned in an earlier post, sump plugs do not have to be VERY tight. A 1/2" drive socket is ideal for removing them, but 3/8" drive or a toque wrench should be used to re-fit them. Remember, just because it was really tight coming out, doesn't mean you have to over-tighten it putting it in  Oil leaks from sump plugs are VERY VERY low on my list of faults on a R-R. |
