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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 23 December, 2015 - 03:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Folks

In a recent discussion on another forum (RR&B) I was told it is ok to remove a Silver Shadow engine by lifting it using the engine block studs. By this I assume the contributor means the studs that secure the cylinder head to the engine block.

I query this as it seems the weight of the engine would put an excessive force on these studs, which could damage the threads in the aluminum engine block. Also, to fit lifting brackets to the studs would require two of the nuts on each cylinder head to be removed completely, thus potentially warping the heads. We are all familiar with the importance of tightening cylinder heads down using a specific sequence of tightening of the nuts.

The contributor on the other forum could well be right and I can see the advantage of using this method. I am just looking for clarification on this, should I ever need to remove the engine on my car.

Does anyone have a view on whether it is ok to remove an engine using the engine block studs as a lifting point?

Geoff
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 424
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 23 December, 2015 - 06:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff the manual sys lift the body of the subframe that would make the job of lifting the engine easier I would not use the head bolts to fix brackets too IMHO.

Richard.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1861
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 23 December, 2015 - 08:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

From my limited experience in removing the transmission for overhaul, I suspect lifting the engine from the engine bay would be very awkward and require removing a lot of the ancillary equipment in the engine bay to allow the engine to be lifted out - putting it back may also be problematic.

The method suggested in TSD2476 involving lifting the body off the front subframe to access the engine would be the most appropriate IMHO. I would prefer to lift the engine off the subframe using slings under the engine if practicable otherwise custom-made brackets attached to the exhaust manifold studs to spread the load would be far preferable to using the cylinder head studs.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1410
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 23 December, 2015 - 05:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Personally I would not use any bolts or studs to lift the engine block out.

None are designed to act in the vertical plane or for that weight.

If you do ever need to remove an engine through the top I would say use slings around the sump.

Find a garage long enough and high enough to suit the job, nottry and make the job suit the garage.

Keep your fingers crossed that you never need to take your engine out. :-)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1863
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 23 December, 2015 - 05:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Paul - I was hoping you would contribute to this request. As a matter of interest, what do you think the mass of a de-watered, de-oiled bare engine would be?

I would strip the engine ancillaries as far as practicable before trying to lift it off the sub-frame to get the lifting mass as low as possible. No way would I try to take it out through the top of the engine bay - Murphy's Laws would certainly apply to possible damage to the vehicle from a wayward engine.......
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Chris Browne
Prolific User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 238
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 23 December, 2015 - 06:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello David,

As a guide, some time ago I made a note of engine weights for the RR V8 but for Cloud II & III, not Shadow. V8 engine with Hydramatic box attached 890 pounds, engine only 625 pounds. I can't recall the source of the data. Perhaps someone has similar figures for the Shadow engine and box?

Happy Christmas and kind regards,

Chris Browne
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1049
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 24 December, 2015 - 03:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I posted this question I did ask myself why not just look it up on the web. The answers I have received above show why it is so useful to talk to RR owners and specialists.

The "series 1" workshop manual does document engine removal through the bonnet aperture, in section E-Engine. This method does require the removal of the gearbox first. This is an alternative to the method where the body of the car is lifted, as documented in section H-Subframes and Suspension.

Interestingly, what I found from my google search were numerous references to engine lifting plates. These devices bolt to the inlet manifold in place of the carburetor or carb plenum. There are many owners who use this method, particularly from the hot-rodding fraternity. Some of these people are lifting big block chevy engines at 600 lbs. There were numerous references to how the studs are easily up to the job, being able to withstand tensile stresses way above the 600 lbs being lifted. However, there was one report where the front two studs sheared, followed by the rear two. The owners comment was "you really don't want to see an engine drop 5 foot onto a garage floor", which of course, he did. He said the damage appeared to be confined to the sump.

In spite of all the assurances, I made a mental note to use straps if I am ever unfortunate enough to have to remove the engine on my car. I really appreciate Paul's endorsement of this.

There was another interesting item I read. One owner was using a load leveler he had bought from Harbor Freight (a budget tool store in the US). He was maneuvering an engine when the device disintegrated, trapping his hand between the engine and engine compartment. He had to yell for help so his daughter could ring for the emergency services to free him. Fortunately, the prognosis for his hand is good. This device, priced at cir $20 has apparently been discontinued, which is not surprising. For jobs where a high degree of risk is involved, I would always buy professional grade tools.

Many thanks for your help. As I originally mentioned, this was an academic question and as Paul said, I will keep my "fingers crossed that you never need to take your engine out."

Geoff
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Ben Curtis
Yet to post message
Username: burgundyben

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 02:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi

That was my thread on the other forum asking about lifting engines. The engine in my car is missing its cylinder heads and missing 4 rod and piston assemblies. Its scrap and I'll use the head studs to lift it out.

When I fit the replacement engine, it'll be complete, I'm going to make some lifting brackets and a spreader bar so it hangs nicely.

I'll whip out the box for a refresh, while its out I'll swap the engines, then box back in, then get it running.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 430
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 02:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Ben welcome to the Rolls Royce Australian Forum where you will find all the help you need to keep your vehicle maintained and enjoyable to own and safe to use.

Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 02:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Ben

I was the original poster and posed the question on this forum out of personal interest. The reason I did not report back to the other forum is I realised, from further reading, the method of lifting was to an extent down to personal choice.

I would however recommend you re-read Paul Yorke's entry in which he advises using straps. The reason I say this, and I don't want to sound too sycophantic here, is that Paul is a professional who has worked on these cars for many years. As an enthusiastic amateur, I tend to take the advice of professionals.

Here's a thing, if you use straps you can inspect them before use, whereas if you are using existing studs as a lifting point, you can not be sure they have not become weakened by corrosion after 40 odd years. Just a thought.

Best wishes with your project and I hope you will report back as you make progress on it. This kind of information is always useful for reference should other owners ever need to carry out the same exercise.

Regards

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1054
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 02:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I posted at the same as Richard. I would like to second his comment.

Geoff
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 384
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 03:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff I lifted the Camargue's engine out with straps. The type of strap was about two inches wide made for towing cars but I have lifted countless engines out using seat belts and never had one break. Actually I lifted a Cadillac 472 V8 out with the Turbo 400 Transmission with a seat belt.

One stupid thing I did which I would never do again was lift the engine out with the grill in place. Just where I would have got another Camargue grill from I have no idea but for the effort required to remove the grill, its crazy to lift the engine over the top of the grill.

I would have preferred to remove the engine from underneath but I don't have a car lifter at present.

Unless you are in the market for a world of pain I would not lift an aluminium engine by any bolt on caper.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1055
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 04:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Vladimir

The point you make about the (soft) aluminium block, Paul's comment that the studs were not designed for lifting the engine and the workshop manual specifying "slings" convinces me straps are the best way to go.

Here's a question - would it be possible to lift the engine, separated from the gearbox, but with the gearbox left still in place? It seems to me if the fan, water pump, radiator and grill were removed first, there would be enough clearance to pull the engine forward to separate it from the gearbox and then lift the engine out. Of course the gearbox would have to be supported, but I was wondering if this method would be possible?

Geoff
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Ben Curtis
New User
Username: burgundyben

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 04:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I know the kind of straps you mean, I have some. I've lifted many engines and I prefer to have metal lifting brackets and shackles. It feels much more secure to me.

Long way to go before I have any lifting to do.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1422
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 04:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The big question is . . . I guess . . . What are you trying to achieve?

Heads, liners, pistons etc can all be done in situ.

If you have room to roll it out forward and upwards on an enine crane etc. You should have room on the subframe.


I think it is possible though but seem to remember it is a pita but can't remember why just now. :/
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 385
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 06:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well I would hazard a guess that it would be possible. You would want to remove the grill certainly and you would definitely want to make certain the gearbox is supported because it is a heavy box and you don't want to bend anything attached to it.

I would pull the engine if I was doing the liners because you really do need to heat the block up to withdraw the liners without cracking the block.

Doing anything major with the engine in situ is not my preferred option because for a start its damn uncomfortable if you are not in your twenties and you have the constant worry of damaging the body work by working over the guards.

That said there is a fair bit to remove from the engine to get it out and its a tight fit to come out and one should relax and take their time going as slow as possible.

Additionally, for the purposes of reassembly I use Glad zip bags into which you can deposit parts ie nuts bolts washers and clips and write on the bag on the white patch where the bits are from. For decades I pulled engines etc and when it came to putting the thing back in one had to try to remember where everything went. Why bother with the human memory when you don't have to ?

One thing to keep in mind is you want the torque convertor to stay with the gearbox so somebody has to be levering the torque converter back while the engine comes forward and it has to come forward a lot further than most cars because of the weird drive plate.

Now I don't say for certain that this way is possible because I have never removed a Shadow engine but I would say it would be worth an effort if you don't have a vehicle lifter and if you have a vehicle lifter make certain you think about where to put the lifting pads. There is a photo of a lovely new Bentley resting on its side after some loon somehow managed to drop it.

Can you just imagine being the foreman explaining to the client "Yes sir we have serviced your car but also dropped it on its side smashing all the panel work down the passenger side and now we have to hog drag it away from the vehicle lifter to get it back on its wheels but don't stress sir we took the apprentice responsible into the bush and had him hung, drawn and quartered Elisabethan style - would you like his skull for an ashtray?"
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Ben Curtis
New User
Username: burgundyben

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 07:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My car had an overheating problem, it was taken to a garage who started to investigate, I don't know who they are or their RR experience. The bill was increasing and the owner called time, sold the car to the garage. The garage disposed of it to a breaker. I bought it. Its a nice 74 car, but with poorly engine.

The engine in the car is missing both heads and 4 piston/rod assemblies.

I've bought a complete engine to swap out.

My plan is

1. Prep the replacement engine - over a couple of weeks.
2. Remove box - one day.
3. Clean box and replace filter - few evenings.
4. Old engine out and new engine in - one day.
5. Gearbox back in - one day.
6. Finishing off - months probably!
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 387
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 08:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ben you might want to flush out your auto trans cooler and have a look at your brake pumps and accumulators before you put the engine back in.

Also, with your replacement engine check the coolant leakage holes in the block for any suspect leaks past the liner seals.

A 74 Shadow is a nice car to keep. definitely have the radiator core looked at and have the tubes rodded and test the thermostat and feel up the water pump bearing and check the hole for leakage.

Good luck.
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Kelly Opfar
Experienced User
Username: kelly_opfar

Post Number: 43
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 08:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The engine can definitely come out the top. That's how I did it. All of the engine ancillaries came off first then the transmission was removed.
It seem more feasible to me than trying to get the whole car 4 feet off the ground.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 833
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Sunday, 10 January, 2016 - 09:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To stop the converter coming off the gearbox make a steel finger and bolt to bell housing.

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