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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1794
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 15 December, 2015 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

SRH33576 has developed a leak on the passenger side along the very outside of the car just ahead of the door.

I have tried, but so far I can't seem to figure out the actual source point for the water. It appears to be originating at a level above the knee roll between the dash end at the level of the glovebox and the body sheet metal.

Here are a few photos of what happens after a long, reasonably heavy rain. This is not a fast leak in any way, and the puddle you see on the floor is the result of about 3 or 4 days of continuous rain.

Some wire that shows drip traces
Wet wires

Where the drip hits the floor, after some time to splash and widen out
Where the water hits the floor

Two pictures of the collected puddle
Puddle number one

Puddle number two

Any ideas of where to try to get a closer look?

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1039
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 15 December, 2015 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

My first guess would be the leak is from the windshield rubber. I'd first try running some sealant along the vertical part of the rubber on the passenger side just adjacent to the door. I once used a permatex sealant that was very effective in completely cutting out wind noise from my windscreen. After 40 years the weight of the windscreen distorts the rubber, often leaving a slight gap at the top. This can also cause leaks on other parts of the screen, which are not obvious to the eye. For 6 bucks, it's certainly worth a try.

http://www.autozone.com/sealants-glues-adhesives-and-tape/windshield-repair/permatex-tube-flowable-silicone-windshield-and-glass-sealer/552992_0_0/

Geoff
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Jim Walters
Frequent User
Username: jim_walters

Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2014
Posted on Tuesday, 15 December, 2015 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Second the windscreen seal. Often it is between the seal and the glass, with age the seal hardens and does not grip the glass very well. Water will sit in the hollow at the bottom corner of the screen and wick around the bottom of the glass and up over the inside of the rubber. Trick fix is to lift the seal enough to slide the tip of a bottle of cyanoacrylate glue under it and let the glue wick under the rubber against the glass about a foot each direction from the corner. This usually fixes it. Get the glue that is black which is toughened with rubber dust.

SRE22493 NAC-05370
www.bristolmotors.com
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1796
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 15 December, 2015 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jim,

I've seen many cyanoacrylates (super glues) but never one that's tinted in any way.

Have you got a specific one that you use?

Brian

P.S. to Geoff: Thanks, too. I'm familiar with the product you've directed me to.
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Jim Walters
Frequent User
Username: jim_walters

Post Number: 60
Registered: 1-2014
Posted on Tuesday, 15 December, 2015 - 06:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, others make a version but this is what I use:

http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/adhesives/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797890609153

It is extremely strong, it will even glue a fan belt together in an emergency. I keep a tube in my car tool box.

SRE22493 NAC-05370
www.bristolmotors.com
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1797
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jim,

Thanks much. Very interesting, as this is one of the first cyanoacrylate-based glues I've encountered that has significant shear strength.

Most people who've used super glues (and particularly those who've glued fingertips together) know only too well how much tensile strength these glues have. What they don't know, though, is that conventional versions have almost no shear strength and that's part of the reason they were developed. If you tap two items that have hard, flat surfaces that have been glued together with a conventional cyanoacrylate from the side they'll most often separate "like magic" while you couldn't pull them apart from each other (in most cases) without one breaking once the force became too much.

Super glue is so super in most typical applications because the surfaces to be glued should be "perfect fit" and are typically irregular breaks that allow for "virtually infinite" combinations of tensile versus shear forces no matter which direction they get knocked from.

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 374
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 05:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian I would pull the windscreen out and replace the seal. Not just to fix the leak but to inspect what if any damage the water has done to the metal.

You may not have had a leak for years but if water can sit on some area of metal hidden from the eye it will cause rust to eat your car 24/7 and I have seen some pretty nasty windscreen rust.

Putting any form of glue in there is a reasonable temporary measure but I doubt it will stop the problem entirely.

So once the windscreen is out you can really assess what needs to be done. Certainly thoroughly rust proofing all the windscreen surround metal is essential.

It will be like all windscreen jobs a total mongrel of a task with all the possibility of scratching the paintwork and or cracking the windscreen.

Good for you that you found the leak before it took out the floor.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 801
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 05:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The leak is most likely the screen seal. The only permanent cure is a new seal.
There is most lightly rust under the rubber.
However a temporary repair can be effected by lifting the rubber and injecting silicon sealant then allowing the rubber to drop back thus squeezing the excess out.

Super glues aren't sealers and therefore won't work.

Also a 6mm hole in the floor pan will give drainage for the water.

Also note that as the car is driven over bumps the screen rubbers flex a bit.

I have like Vladimir seen lots of cars go rusty under the rubber and in some cases bits of the body flange are completely rotted away.

Is the rubber lying correctly. Any wobbles are usually rust pushing against the rubber.
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Jim Walters
Frequent User
Username: jim_walters

Post Number: 61
Registered: 1-2014
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 06:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob, super glues absolutely work in this case, sealing the glass to the rubber. I've been doing this for years for clients who do not want to re and re the windscreen for a new seal. It is a quick, tidy way to solve the leak issue until one is ready to do a proper repair and replace the seal rubber. I only use the fortified cyanoacrylate glue which is made for use on rubber. I use 3M "Window-Weld" urethane for sealing between the rubber and body. I find though that most often the leaks are between the glass and rubber as there is a hollow in each bottom corner that water sits in and wicks down and around the glass. Your results may vary.

SRE22493 NAC-05370
www.bristolmotors.com
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 06:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The other point is replacing a windscreen seal is a major and time consuming undertaking, not to be carried out without careful planning. The big problem is if there is rust beneath the seal then it is quite possible a respray of the roof and valence might be necessary. Given the difficulty of matching paint colors, there is the real danger of catching shipwrights disease.

Geoff
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 413
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 07:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well Jeff I will be the one to ask instead of pretending I know the answer what is shipwrights disease.

Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 07:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard

Sailor owns boat.
Boat has burned out light in galley.
Sailor decides to change bulb.
Sailor notices socket is corroded, decides to change socket.
Sailor notices wiring frayed while trying to change socket.
Sailor decides to change wiring.
Sailor notices galley ceiling slats are rotted while changing the wire.
Sailor decides galley ceiling slats need changing.
Sailor notices ...

this goes on and on and on and on and pretty soon, Sailor is undertaking a
major renovation of his boat because of a burned out light bulb.


In the above context:

Owner removes windscreen
Owner finds rust where seal was
Owner repairs rust area but marks the paint
Owner resprays roof and valence panels
Owner finds paint colour doesn't match other panels
Owner sands down whole car for total respray .... and so on.

All because of a small leak in the windscreen seal

Geoff
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 414
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 07:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff it could also be named Silver Shadow disease and we all qualify as suffering from it. The more we do the more there is to do, I think some of us invent something to work at I know I do.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 802
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 08:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jim,
I shall try super glue when the need arises. New ideas and all that.

All old cars have the above disease. Fortunately the word Patina helps cure the disease.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1798
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 16 December, 2015 - 08:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

One need not worry that I shall ever catch shipwright's disease nor wakeman's syndrome.

In fact, one of the reasons I'm quite disliked in certain circles is that I seem to be completely immune to it.

There are certain marques, several of them British, that have owner communities that seem to be much more susceptible to those horrid conditions than others.

The word "patina" and the phrase, "looks like it's actually lived a life," are a big part of my automotive vocabulary.

Brian
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 964
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 18 December, 2015 - 07:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"The word "patina" and the phrase, "looks like it's actually lived a life," are a big part of my automotive vocabulary."

So long as you don't apply that to the state of the floor, it needs getting at as soon as the leak is dealt with.

Good job the rat trap units are not effected LHD.


Original quote highlighted by Moderator.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1043
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 18 December, 2015 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I know it's all down to personal choice, but I am not a fan of the patinated look.

Patina is defined on wiki as "a thin layer that variously forms (a small amount of surface rust, without pitting) on the surface of stone; on copper, bronze and similar metals (such as any ferrous metals, i.e. steels and irons)" It appears true patina is quite extensive, covering a lot of the car.

It's just not for me.

I ran a google image search on "patinated Rolls Royce". Here's what I got.

test

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1801
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 18 December, 2015 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, the floor will be repainted as soon as the leak is dealt with. It is nothing but a bit of surface rust and the floor is quite solid.

Geoff, that picture goes well, well beyond what anyone I know in the artist or automotive communities means when they use the term "patina!"

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 376
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Saturday, 19 December, 2015 - 04:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"I define "Patina" as sales squark for "Yes it is buggered and needs restoration but is its trendy now to drive a heap - show me the money""

Patina is one of those evil capitalistic revisionist words that are used to cover up a multitude of nasty things to move the cash from your wallet into the salesman's wallet and for you to feel good about it.

I am not saying the word "Patina" is worse than the word "Toyota" but its close enough to convey rudeness and cunning enough to mask surprises.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1045
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 19 December, 2015 - 05:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have to agree with Vladimir. I guess designer rust has it's place on 50's American pickups, to keep the character of those old workhorses, but I find it a bit sad when applied to other classic cars.

Brian - You have occasionally published photos of your cars and I would certainly not describe them as patinated. They look really good to me. I guess this is just a case of defining what patina is.

I know the photo I included in the above thread was meant as a (partial) joke, but it does raise the question of when is a car patinated and when is a car just a plain wreck.

In general though, The "Emperors New Clothes" comes to mind.

Geoff
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 805
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 19 December, 2015 - 05:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The photo is stretching patina a bit to far. Much too far.

To me patina means say leather with creases. Not torn with stuffing hanging out.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 419
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 19 December, 2015 - 07:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob I think you've had your thoughts on the Christmas Turkey (not torn with stuffing hanging out)just a week early.

Richard.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 807
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Monday, 21 December, 2015 - 05:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am not keen on turkey. I prefer chicken.

Patina has to be accepted with daily drivers, else it would be a 24/7 job of waxing etc.


However one must draw the line somewhere.
Dented body panels is too far. A touched in stone chip is ok, save them up and do them properly when there enough to make it worth while
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 117
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 21 December, 2015 - 06:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Quite simply, a genuine patina, as differentiated from salesmanship patina, is age related (as in tarnished brass) rather than abuse or neglect related. The latter is nothing more than a joke, a tongue-in-cheek pretext to excuse a thrashed and worn-out vehicle.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1802
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 21 December, 2015 - 07:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

I would add only "and use" after the word "age" in your comment.

Patina has myriad forms, but is generally the result of something having lived a life doing what it was designed to do, receiving requisite care while doing it, and developing evidence of having had that use.

All one needs to do is watch Antiques Roadshow, paying particular attention to furniture (original finish - even when awful - is preferable to collectors than refinished), most non-functional metal objects, and firearms. Any of these in "restored to new" condition is virtual anathema.

I've always found it interesting to observe how patina is highly valued in certain spheres and considered the kiss of death in others. There is no real rhyme nor reason - it's all about what "the market" traditionally stresses for object X.

Brian, who knows that the collector car world generally finds patina repellant, with the exception of the still relatively new "preservation class"
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 808
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Monday, 21 December, 2015 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am a qualified Historic vehicle restoration and conservation engineer.

the conservation of vehicles has been going on for quite a while. 1999 I saw a unrestored Ford Model T. Conventry Transport Muesuem said that there are plently of shinny runners around but very few wholly original cars. Even the paint.

I see loads of nice old cars that arent original. nice and shinny. These cars arent representive of what the average on the road car looked liked when that car was say 5 years old.

I like looking at period photos and films showing these old cars in daily use. There would dents mud and dull paint.

Beauty and patina are in the eye of the beholder.

then we have the other end of the scale where wishbones get chromed.

I have done a few restorations and I dont want to do anymore. I now restrict work to keep it running and keep it looking nice.

If one wants a mint car its cheaper to buy one than try to do up one that is just average.

Naval Jelly. this is what happens when you eat jelly sandwiches with no shirt on.

Or its a phosphate coating. wire brush the scabby bits paint with naval jelly when is dries indigo blue paint over.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1860
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 21 December, 2015 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert,

I swear by a good soak in a container of molasses for a couple of works to derust heavily corroded steel and iron components. Much loved by the antique farm engine and machinery restorers in my part of the world. If my memory is still reliable, I recall posting some before and after examples elsewhere in the forum - just search using "molasses" as the key word. Have found the link to the examples:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/115028-rust-removal-molasses.html

Helps if you have access to a dairy farm or cattle feedlot to get bulk molasses used for cattle feed decanted into your container at an affordable price.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 809
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 22 December, 2015 - 06:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have seen the effect of molasses on rusty pitted components. Very slow but effective. The naval jelly I use takes about 30mins.

The UK weather is unkind to steel cars. And despite best efforts all cars in the UK will go rusty. Modern cars are better but its still there lurking around. modern cars are designed with water ingress more in mind and they try not design rust traps in cars. Plus modern primers

My method is to remove all paint back to bare metal and then work out how to repair the damage. One has to be ruthless with rust.

Fortunately us Shadow owners are blessed with a body shell that is strong and rust is generally wheel arches, floor pans, lower wings, sills, valances and window rubber flanges all of which can be beaten from 18swg mild steel. The shapes are quite flat apart from wheel arches which can be made from 3 pieces.

However the rear trailing arms cross member mounting points can fail on the body shell as can the front subframe mountings. Plently of waxoil keeps these areas sound. Because they are a bugger to repair ----- engine gearbox and subframe will have to come out.

RR when the first standard steel bodies were made found that with in 5 years rust was showing on the bodies. which is why Dawns and Std Wraiths are thin on the ground. RR took note and the Clouds were better, also better steel was available. By the the advent of the Shadow RR pulled most of the stops out. The Shadow rust wise is better than most. A big big problem with the Rover P5 was galloping rust. XJ6s can be really bad.

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Ivor Duarte
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 88.97.5.220
Posted on Sunday, 27 December, 2015 - 03:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To seal your leak, a stopgap so to speak, try Captain Tolley
http://www.amazon.com/Captain-Tolleys-Creeping-Crack-Bottle/dp/B00JQ6XHWC

Ivor

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1803
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 27 December, 2015 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ivor,

Thanks for the pointer to this product. I really like the fact that it's water-based, meaning easy to clean up spills while wet, and designed to creep into tiny openings, which is what's at work here.

I've always disliked silicone sealants and used latex based ones where something more substantial is needed because I can manage it so much better before, during, and after application.

Brian
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1816
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 05 January, 2016 - 03:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A quick follow-up. After doing some additional research I decided that the best fix, short of pulling the windshield, which I am not prepared to do at this time, is to try Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. After reading up this particular product appears to be the "best fit" for the exact sort of crack/leak in question.

However, it's winter in these parts and, in fact, today is our first snow of the season. It's been unusually warm up until now, and it's still warmer than it should be overall. I had hoped I could apply this product during the cold weather, and had I had it in hand a few weeks before now I could have applied it in the warm-to-slightly-cool weather.

I wrote to the company asking about cold weather application, and I thought their response would be useful information for others who might wish to use it in the future when the weather's not warm.

-------------------------------------------------
We don't recommend application of the product below 5 degrees Celsius or 41 Fahrenheit. You'll also need to ensure the temperature doesn't go below that level for the full 24 hour curing period.

Other than that, the product should do the job, 'micro-leaks' being its speciality.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1817
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 06 January, 2016 - 01:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And a further correction from the folks at Captain Tolley's:

So sorry, but I got my Fahrenheit and Celsius muddled. It's not a good idea to use it below 56F/13.3C, especially in the conditions you describe. As it's a water-based product, as you say, it doesn't react very favourably to damp conditions - it tends not to cure. Think it may be best to wait for drier and warmer day.

Brian, with the overnight low last night being -11 C and sitting at 0 C in the sun at 10:21 AM (we've gone from unusually balmy to somewhat colder than seasonably cold virtually overnight)
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wayne stirland
Yet to post message
Username: wayne_in_aus

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2015
Posted on Saturday, 09 January, 2016 - 03:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

didn't read all posts but watch out for corrosion in the wiring blocks in that area, you may notice central locking operation a becoming a bit intermittent this is what I found on my shadow, confused until I pulled the blocks apart saw the corrosion, replaced blocks and locks worked great again, also I have always used silicone as it is flexible for windows to frame and works but still only a temp fix as others have said, one last pennt piece, once leak is sorted and floor cleaned use a rust converter before adding paint.
have fun

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