| Author | Message | ||
     Nigel hawcroft Yet to post message Username: nigel Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
Please could somebody enlighten me as to the Correct Procedure with regards front wheel bearing adjustment. (SILVER SHADOW 2 SRH 363390 ) Is it a case of tightening of the castellation nut or do shims have to be applied I have noticed that there is quite a bit of freeplay on the offside front Wheel after applying pressure at 12 and 6 and 3 and 9 Thank you | ||
| John D Unregistered guest Posted From: 144.138.194.198 |
Thank you Nigel. Before you address the adjustment, which is not complex, I suspect that due to the amount of freeplay now present, you might be looking at bearing replacement. They are not expensive and since they are probably the originals, replacement would not be premature.(J.G.Dare) (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 478 Registered: 4-2003 |
The book calls for an end float of 2-4 thou. You can do this with a feeler gauge. I must admit I flaunt that, and do them Holden-style: fit the wheel, spin the wheel and hub, and gently tighten the bearing until the spanner has just given resistance, maybe 3 ft-lb. Loosen, and repeat several times. Then back it off until the split pin lines up with a castellation. In zillions of km, I have never suffered bearing wear as a result, and I don't like free play in bearings. The only bearing I have replaced was on my Turbo R rear left. The cage suffered a very unusual breakage, and the wheel squeaked in reverse. The rear hubs are not a normal service point and had never been touched before. I have used this method for decades on our R-Type and T-Series, and more recently on my Turbo R: the motor registry's computer complained on two consecutive tests about free play, and I became tired with showing the guys the manuals and giving a demo. The key to bearing life is to clean out the hub and repack it with grease whenever you remove the calipers at the latest. | ||
| Nigel hawcroft New User Username: nigel Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thank you Gentlemen,for the words of wisdom. Regards Nigel | ||
| Larry Halpert Prolific User Username: larry_halpert Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi Richard, Was changing the rear bearing different on your Turbo R than it would be on my '89 Spur? How complicated were the steps?-(without all the complications the manual seems to inject) I noticed what looked like a small trail of brown oil on my caliper, and looked up past it and it seems to be coming from the hub area which looked moist with the stuff. I can't wobble the tire, so there doesn't seem to be play. Larry tbird@consultant.com | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 488 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Larry, Shadows, Spurs and Spirits are a little different from a Turbo R. They got wise and standardised them to the Turbo type around 1992 once supply contracts and stocks had expired. The Turbos have superior splined stub axles, whereas the others have adequate Woodruff keys. The flange nut on a Turbo needs just 80 ft-lb to torque them down. Easy. The others need a massive 500 ft-lb, I repeat 500 ft-lb of torque. You need a serious wrench and extension for that one. Apart from that, it's a piece of cake. It sounds like you only need a new seal. The wheel bearings usually last a million miles. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 160 Registered: 9-2004 |
Richard,I have stated 700lbs which is correct? | ||
| whunter Grand Master Username: whunter Post Number: 123 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hello Richard Treacy and Patrick Lockyer. Please quote source material and page number for torque specification. A mistake on this could KILL someone. whunter ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com AUTOKUNST 754 Orchard Lake Road Pontiac, MI. 48341 Phone# 248-334-3120 Fax#248-334-0435 | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 162 Registered: 9-2004 |
whunter. What i had read was a somewhat alarmist account from what appears to be from the RREC stateing wheel nuts 700lb ft. That as we know is not correct. As we all know the SS steels are torqued at 45/50lb.ft so i had assumed they meant the stub axle nut at 700lb.ft. but i see from my notes the stub axle is early type 450/475 and later type 500/525lb.ft. copy of part text.  | ||
| whunter Grand Master Username: whunter Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thank you Patrick The publication date would help people locate the correct edition. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 495 Registered: 4-2003 |
Crewe publication, Workshop Manual TSD4400. Section J6-3 Ref 14: 664-692 Nm, 70 kgf m, 490-510 lbf ft All verbatim, although I quote 500 lb-ft. Pat, your quote is for the torque wrench capacity, not the torque figure. Also, it refers to wheel nuts, not the hubs. RT. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2004 |
Richard.To use a 700 lb ft torque wrench for the wheel nuts @ 50 lb ft, surley not,our torque wrench just for the high figures is 6'+lomg. For engines wheels etc a 2'long torque wrench is used. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 497 Registered: 4-2003 |
I agree about torqueing to 50 lb-ft with an appropriate wrench, but to quote your article: "For example, the wheel nuts need a 700lb/ft torque wrench." (sic, the measure is lb-ft, and what wheel nut torques to 700 anything anyhow ?). No mention of torque settings nor hubs, just the dubious reference to the maximum capacity of the torque wrench itself. Trust TSD4400: it's 500 lb-ft for non-Turbo rear hubs. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 295 Registered: 4-2003 |
I would love to know just what publication Patrick is quoting from. The sentiments expressed there are precisely why forums like this one have flourished. I wouldn't be suprised if the writers did not re-advocate bonnet locks on our cars and a re-introduction of the legendry seals on the engines! As the Factory Superviser pointed out to me at Crewe some years ago 'It is only a car!' The damage we see to Shadows now could reasonably be attributed to these attitudes which prevailed in the seventies when cars fresh out of their guarantees were bought up by the "would-be's". The latter were hard pressed to foot the bills and simply kept driving until they stopped. The cars were then patched up and sold and the reputation for being incredably complex, unreliable and so specialised that mere mortals should not even open the bonnet, commenced. Richard Treacy whom I have known for over thirty years then quite amazed me as barely out of school he took on jobs on his Father's 'R' type that I was only contemplating. I should add that he stil amazes me! Thank God for this spirit which put paid to the puffed up pundits who would deny us the pleasure (and pain) of keeping these cars on the road, because without us, as sure as the Sun rises tomorrow, a large majority of these cars would have been reduced to scrap with the only residue being a mascot jammed onto a hastily turned plinth and left to gather dust in one of the rooms at the back of the house! And whilst I am fulminating, one of the claims of the Factory used to be be that 'over half of all Rolls-Royces built are still on the road'!!! I always wanted to add a public rider that this was largely the result of a considerable army of enthusiasts who ensured that this was the case! | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 169 Registered: 9-2004 |
Bill C. The article was "Your classic"Nov 90. As i had asumed the 700lb ft torque wrench would not be used on the wheel nuts but on the stub axle nut and our old torque wrench is 600 lb ft. The higher ones are as far as i know are multipliers. The article states Working on a Shadow. The best advice is:don't!The Silver Shadow in no way be described as a DIY car. The RREC club says it is "very unwise" to attempt a restoration your self........... Maybe the what prevailed in the 70s was in the 90s as well! I have owned my car for 25yrs and found if looked after in the service side of things it has had very little problems so far and running on lpg. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 349 Registered: 4-2003 |
Pat, I have a 1000ft/lb 1" drive torque wrench which cost AUD1100 about 2 years ago - essential when replacing rear wheel bearings [lasted 106,000 miles on DRH14434 and failed due to water penetration past felt seals presumably from time spent in UK before coming to a drier climate - Crewe now supply a lip seal conversion kit as this appeared to be a widespread problem - do not know serial number for production changeover to lip seals but obviously much later than 14434 as the Corniches were used as test beds for upgrades before they were adopted on the Shadows]. After buying the big wrench, one of our self-help group members "politely" asked me why didn't I just buy a torque multiplier for my standard wrench - my response [purely to justify my purchase] was that as it was a safety issue, I preferred to rely on a proper tool that could be relied on to give the specified torque rather than a "get-you-out-of-trouble" alternative. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 171 Registered: 9-2004 |
David, Did the member not politely return with an answer to your "get you out of trouble"alternative. Saying that the many scaled multipliers are a precise professinal piece of equipment used correctly,ie 3/4 drive torque wrench a must used with the multiplier up to 1000lb ft. Many heavy plant engineers use them to 5000+lb ft. Learn something all the time did not know the Corniche was used as the test bed for mods that are used on the Shadows. Will the updated hub seals fit the SS1. My rear hub bearings are ok even though they are 30yrs old but will replace with the new type seals when needed if they fit. | ||
| John Dare Yet to post message Username: jgdare Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 |
There has been much discussion regarding torque settings without any mention of "oiled" threads or dry threads, during the tightening procedure. Much ado about "correct" settings etc. (either by dedicated wrench or torque "multiplier") invites the question as to how often (if at all) such implements are periodically checked for calibration as is often the case in the aircraft industry. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 351 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Pat, The person concerned is a good friend who took great delight in my lack of knowledge in the kind sense - we had a good laugh over the issue. The seal conversion fits all Shadow I cars but you do have to recycle some parts from the original seal assembly. In my case, DRH14434 spent the first 10 years of its life in Yorkshire and it is my suspicion that snow accumulated in the rear wheel wells during winter whilst being driven and when it was parked in the owner's garage [presumably heated], the snow melted and ran down over both sides of the wheel. On the inner side of the wheel, it ran down onto the half-shaft and wicked under the felt seal into the bearing housing - when I pulled it down, the water and bearing grease had formed an emulsion that literally poured out of the housing and its lack of lubrication caused the bearing to wear prematurely. John, in answer to your query; it has always been my understanding that torque figures apply to UNLUBRICATED fasteners unless specified otherwise. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 175 Registered: 9-2004 |
John,could you tell me how you use your torque wrench with regard to calibration, most important may not be in the book! Thanks David for interesting reply. | ||
| John Dare New User Username: jgdare Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2004 |
I fear my concerns have not been understood. Whether torqueing upon dry or oiled threads (an issue which has not attracted any comment to date) the question relates to the KNOWN accuracy of a given torque wrench. In the aircraft industry, such wrenches are periodically checked for correct calibration etc., a practice which I do not believe is common within the automotive service/repair industry. I suspect however, that it may, to some extent, be performed by auto.manufacturers during some initial production line procedures. | ||
| whunter Grand Master Username: whunter Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2003 |
In the field, what a general mechanic has in his tool box is variable. Sad to say that I know mechanics who do not own any torque wrenches. I will not waste space on beam arm or cheap quality torque wrenches. A top quality torque wrench that is never used as a breaker bar or dropped, always returned to zero each night, and stored with care will last many years (7 - 15), with minimal calibration loss (1 - 2%). The same torque wrench used as a breaker bar or dropped, never returned to zero, and left in the weather will last roughly 24 hours, with :GUESS: calibration loss (10 - 200%). In theory, torque wrenches should be checked every year, and recalibrated or replaced when they exceed the tolerance specified by manufacturer. Mine are checked every year, and every time they are loaned to anyone. In automotive prototype, the tool must be calibrated and certified every year, or more often, depending upon OEM policy. Assembly line policy varies from OEM to OEM. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 176 Registered: 9-2004 |
whunter spot on, returned to zero after use and stored in its case after use. We check our's once a year with a spring balance. | ||
| John Dare New User Username: jgdare Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you W.Hunter, for your clear and informative response, demonstrating your own awareness of the concern which I raised. I suspect that very few people would have ever thought about periodically checking their "trusty" old torque/tension wrench (against a known reliable standard) until being suddenly aware of the potential consequences of failing to do so. That is why I felt an obligation to canvass the issue in the interest of safety (and liability) in the event of allegations of negligence to which the auto and aircraft industry are exposed, hence my original reference to certain service practices within the latter. |
