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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1724
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 03 November, 2015 - 04:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Never being one who prefers abstract theory alone when direct testing can be done, I decided to see what my already years old batch of YAK363 would do when significant amounts of water were added. I am not comparing against either straight DOT3 or RR363 since what I want to know about is YAK363.

This batch was mixed up in 2009 and I believe I used Wal-Mart's SuperTech DOT3 brake fluid as the base. The proportion is 90% DOT3 and 10% pharmaceutical castor oil.

I did not have my camera handy when I started the experiment so I don't have the "day one" photo after I added the water and the top layer got cloudy. I put in a number of drops from my fingertips that I'm guessing amounted to about 1/4 tsp. Below are the photographs of the sample at five day intervals starting at day 5 and ending today:

Day 5: 2015-10-08
Sample Day 5

Day 10: 2015-15-13
Sample Day 10

Day 15: 2015-10-18
Sample Day 15

Day 20: 2015-10-23
Sample Day 20

Day 25: 2015-10-28
Sample Day 25

Day 30: 2015-11-02
Sample Day 30

The experiment is continuing. Today I added another 1/2 tsp of water to the existing sample and will monitor it at five day intervals for thirty days again. I'll post that sequence of pictures at the end of the thirty days.

The sample already had a bit under 7 years of not-well-controlled environmental exposure in two different plastic containers. The water added to the sample at the outset is significantly more than would be absorbed from the atmosphere over time, based on what has been repeatedly posted about how much water glycol-based brake fluids absorb on average.

Brian
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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2015 - 04:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,
I have seen lots of posts that mention YAK363. I know what Dot 3/4 and RR363 are but what exactly is YAK363?
REgards Alan in the UK
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 391
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2015 - 05:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Alan YAK363 is a Pet name for a home brew of Dot3 or Dot4 mixed with varying degrees of Castor oil to be used in place of RR363 brake fluid if RR363 is unobtainable or as the normal brake fluid used by a lot of the forum members.

Richard.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1727
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2015 - 07:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan,

Richard has already given an adequate explanation, but a tiny additional bit of interesting history will be offered by me.

In one of the myriad go-rounds about whether anyone could or should use anything other than RR363 for SY cars someone made a comment along the lines that they'd use Yak pee as a substitute if that were shown to be suitable and were in more regular supply. From that comment the moniker YAK363 came into being for a 90%/10% DOT3 or DOT 4 to pharmaceutical or lubrication grade castor oil.

Another regular here, Omar Shams, who lives in Dubai mixes his home brew as 85%/15% proportioned and you'll see the occasional reference to OMAR363 to refer to this.

Brian, who just shot the Day 5 photo for part 2 of the "add water" experiment yesterday
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Alan Scard
Experienced User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2015 - 09:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard and Brian,
Many thanks for the explanation. YAK pee really appeals to my sense of humour.
REgards Alan
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 870
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 09 November, 2015 - 09:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Along the same lines it seems that it was the Citroen DS community that popularised the use of castor oil in DOT brake fluid to replace the increasingly difficult to obtain RR363. As those car models used a suspension that was the forerunner of the Rolls models they used the same vegetable based fluid, but it was mostly discontinued when Citroen switched to mineral oil. Since the later fluid was considered to be a Rolls Royce 'component' the price was (perhaps artificially) inflated accordingly.

As long as the producer(s) stay tight lipped on the formulation we can either stay with the genuine (?) article - there's quite a bit of debate considering the current formulation Vs the original - or suck it and see with YAK363. Stories about how good or bad it is are, at best, apocryphal and are often discounted. Gumming or separation appear to be confined to areas of the world that see sub zero temperatures on occasion, but even then only when the concentration of castor oil significantly exceeds the recommended 10%.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 393
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 10 November, 2015 - 01:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jan that part about the formulation is the mystery I think 363 is a red herring and has little or nothing to do with the contents of the stuff.

Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1001
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 10 November, 2015 - 01:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jan

I have to take issue with some of your statements.

"Stories about how good or bad it is are, at best, apocryphal and are often discounted."

That these "stories" are apocryphal is just totally untrue. I think the word "reports" would be a much better description and their authenticity is beyond doubt, for anyone who has read this forum for any length of time.

"we can either stay with the genuine (?) article or suck it and see with YAK363"

No need to suck it and see. Several owners have been using YAK363 or OMAR363 for years now, without any damage whatsoever to their hydraulic systems. This has been well documented in this forum.

Gumming or separation appear to be confined to areas of the world that see sub zero temperatures

I guess that depends on what you mean by sub-zero temperatures. I know of two members of this forum who have kept test solutions of YAK363 which, by virtue of their location, will have experienced overnight temperatures lower than most of us experience, with no detrimental effects to their test samples.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1728
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 10 November, 2015 - 02:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just as a data point, my YAK363 sample was mixed in 2009, and has been stored in a detached garage with no climate control whatsoever since then. It has endured several instances of subzero temperatures over the years, the last one being the most severe at -10 degrees F. It remains as clear as the pictures I've posted show after those years and additional water was added.

I agree that the term "apocryphal" is absolutely incorrect with regard to reports regarding RR363, and presume that Jan meant to type "anecdotal." We will likely never have anything but anecdotal evidence and/or single or very limited number subject "studies" for anything we do regarding our cars. That's just the way it is when you're dealing with old cars of very limited production that included a lot of "boutique engineering" features.

As I have said in the past, people should do their homework regarding any given topic/issue and then proceed in any way they feel comfortable based on an informed decision.

When spring comes and it's time to do my next full brake fluid change on the Shadow II I hope I will remember to take a picture of exactly what I find in the reservoir before doing it. The YAK363 that's in there has been subject to normal use for at least two years by that time.

One of the reasons I'm posting what I'm posting is to take the purely anecdotal account into the realm of something others can literally see. I've also been of the firm belief that "the writing's on the wall" regarding the likely demise of the production of RR363, and I'd really rather be doing this sort of examination when the option exists to revert to RR363 were that to be indicated. So far, it has not.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 675
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 10 November, 2015 - 07:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan to further put your mind at rest.

Penrite Oil of Australia issued a technical bulletin. It said their Dot 3 Dot 4 and Super Dot 4 brake fluids and 2% plus and castor oil is suitable as a replacement for RR363.

There are many engine oils that are suitable for RR engines. Each one of these oils is different. Duckhams 20/50 has different additives than Castrol GTX but are both approved by RR.

So apply this to brake fluid. Yak363 is not the same as RR363 bur works just as well.

Castor oil will wax at low temps. Hence Penrite suggesting 2% as a starting point. In the UK it doesn't get that cold. So I would suggest 5%.

Friends on thus forum drive these cars in the Middle East and Australia and other extremes of temperature. In hot places I would go the full 10%.

The Citron guys also vary the mix according to ambient temperature.
Some in a Canada winter run Dot 3 or 4 without castor oil and pop some in when spring comes.

The ambient temperature is only part of the best ratio of castor to Dot. When the car is running the brake fluid in the reservoir gets warm from being pumped and the heat of the engine. So even a zero centigrade Yak363 will be fine.

If you think about how a hydraulic system works then the fluid is merely a medium to transfer power. And the system will work on any fluid including water. But the system will fail soon. So as long as the fluid doesn't damage any thing and lubs the bits and is about the right viscosity then it's fine.

Note that DOT 5 Silicon MUST not be used. That leaves 3, 4, 5.1. In the UK Dot 4 is readily available in 5 litre cans 23 quid.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 496
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 04:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

reservoir exposed for the first time after 6 years of using YAK363 (also known as OMAR363)
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 497
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 04:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 498
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 04:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 499
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 04:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 500
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 04:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I should change the oil more frequently than 5 to 6 years.

Fresh home-made YAK363 now in the car.
brakes and suspension still work very well.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 06:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar

Impressive.

Are you now using YAK363 (10%) or OMAR363 (15%)

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1761
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 07:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

Yep. I think I posted photos of what I found in the reservoir of LRK37110 after it had had a fresh change of RR363 and some major hydraulic work and then was parked in a garage for 5 years.

It didn't look all that much different than yours, though the system 2 reservoir had what looked for all the world like algae growing in it.

I try to stick to the once every two years interval just because these systems get so messy. They're unlike any other brake system using DOT3, as far as what the contents of the reservoirs look like over long periods of fluid use, that I've ever seen.

Someone got creative with the filters in that reservoir. The mesh size looks fairly large, though.

Brian
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1813
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 09:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Interesting there is no sign of the green slime [which I christened "flubber" after the Disney movie "The Absent-minded Professor"] I discovered in DRH14434's reservoir. How this got there is mere speculation on my part but probably related to father-in-law possibly using conventional brake fluid for top-ups instead of RR363.

Otherwise a very impressive long-term outcome especially given your climatic conditions which I expect would be very conducive to breakdown of the castor oil additive. Changing every 2 years as for RR363 appears to be the appropriate interval for OMAR363 and YAK363 although I wonder if 15% castor oil may be on the high side for hot climates. Will be interesting to see similar photos from users in cool climates.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 758
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It looks like dead moths floating around. Larger mesh is not good but the pumps will chop up small lumps soft corruption.

The hole in baffle is for the master cylinder tower which is not fitted and therefore this is SS2 type car.

I like the idea of cut down valve springs inside the mesh to support it better.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 501
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 01:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear All,
My mix is very very roughly 12 to 16% castor oil and the rest dot 3 brake fluid.
The mesh was my improvisation. I noted that many systems I had seen had run with breached screens. That meant that they had operated with zero mesh. My conclusion was that debris that I had seen over the years is what I am trying to prevent going into the pumps. All debris I had ever seen before were large enough to be stopped by the mesh I chose for this application. Mesh that works is far better than super fine mesh that will fail.
The car feels no different with new oil than it did when the old oil was in it.
Our climate is hot and humid. I rarely drive the car in the summer as the heat is too much for both the car and me. The airconditioning cannot cope with ambient temperatures above 48 degrees, so I just park the cars up in the summer.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 763
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Any mesh is better than no mesh. Besides there's a big one on the top.
I take the point about fine meshs blocking and collapsing. Your tank actually wasn't that dirty. I have heard of 2" deep sludge and black sight glasses. Probably the dead moths would disolve as the fluid warms up
I have just done my fluid and sludge was minimal after not sure think 3 years. I have std filters fitted which stand proud of the tank floor thus giving a sump for an amount sludge to reside safely. About 6mm. The std meshes are delicate and I should think most get damaged by careless tank cleaning. UK is humid so I put rubber grease over the filler cap vents. Any tank pressure or vacuum will simply move the grease.

I should think at 48c the fluid in the tank is hot enough for water to evaporate from the fluid.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1763
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

I do hope my comment on the mesh size was not taken as an insult, as it was not intended as one. I agree that the "bag style" you've crafted of sturdier mesh are far less likely to crush and break and that these filters are meant to keep out "larger" detritus, not silt.

The sludge layers that are often seen have to be the deposition of layers of "system silt" when the system is turned off and anyone who's ever dealt with clay or silt knows that once it lands and coalesces it *stays* there, even when there's "new liquid action" above it.

The original design for these filters is simply not good. When placed in situations that we've all seen, again and again, that they end up being placed in they perforate when they crush. Essentially when they are most needed is when they always fail. Your design, and several other alternatives that have passed through these forums, are not likely to do this.

Brian, whose second 30-day with *extra* extra water sequence will be at an end next week, photos to follow
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 502
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 06:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My Dear Brian,
Your comments are always welcome and I never consider them insulting.
I promised the forum many years ago that I would post photos of the state of the reservoir - so I had to do what I said I was going to do.
The swirly bits in the oil only appeared when I removed the baffles and they dripped into the reservoir. Had there been no drips or if i had waited a day for everything to settle the oil would have been a uniform colour.
After all these years - the state of the reservoir was not too bad. But it is so easy to change the oil - so why wait that long? I will be doing this job more frequently for sure.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1785
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 08 December, 2015 - 09:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As the TV commentator Paul Harvey used to intone, "Now, the rest of the story. . ."

2015-11-02 Day One of Stage 2, Immediately after 1/2 tsp additional water added
YAK363 with 1/2 tsp more water

2015-11-02 Day One, after shaking to blend
Blended YAK363

2015-11-07 Day Five, still slightly cloudy
YAK363 Day Five

2015-11-12 Day Ten, clear but "wavy"
YAK363 Day Ten

2015-11-17 Day Fifteen, back to clear
YAK363 Day Fifteen

2015-11-22 Day Twenty
YAK363 Day Twenty

2015-11-27 Day Twenty-Five
YAK363 Day Twenty-Five

2015-12-02 Day Thirty
YAK363 Day Thirty

2015-12-07 Day Thirty-Five
YAK363 Day Thirty-Five

I will, of course, be keeping this sample and observing it over time. It has already been exposed to temperatures below freezing a few times since the latest water addition, including last night. I'll be curious as to what it looks like when it gets really cold (which, if I'm lucky, I might not get to experience this winter - ten below zero F last winter was plenty for years!).

Brian
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1875
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 16 April, 2016 - 07:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I thought I'd post the final photograph for this experiment. The sample remained outside in the garage, exposed to ambient temperature, throughout the winter. The lowest temperature this past winter was -10F/-23C, but the majority was not nearly that cold. We had plenty of days below freezing, though.

The only change after adding the "lots of extra" water last fall while sitting over the winter is that the color changed from really pale straw to a deeper yellow. There remains no separation of the water from the fluid, which is not a surprise when you look at how much water glycol fluid is capable of integrating, and that's well above what it can absorb from the atmosphere.

YAK363 at end of water added experiment

Brian
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Nick Adlam
New User
Username: crewes_control

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Saturday, 16 April, 2016 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

Thanks for those good pics. I'm a Yak pee convert and quite happy with the way the car behaves.

When SRH16373 was giving me/my mechanic grief with rear-levelling issues, we wasted several litres of RR363, then our local RR guy ran out of stock. Made the decision to change to YAK363 using Castrol Super Dot 4 and 10% pharma-grade castor (for hot Qld/Oz weather) and have noticed a slight, but definite quietening of the pumps. No difference in braking feel or ability. Am happy to sit with this fluid, but do respect other's view that RR363 is the only way.

Super Dot 4 is a superior chemical to the archaic Dot 3 (1950's?), very much like modern oils have improved engine lifespans. As for old fluids being more "compatible" with old cars, most of us have replaced all rubber brake parts, have we not??, hehe. The hoses and seals on my car are all modern, so no issue with modern fluids.

Has anyone tried Dot 5.1 yet?. A bit cheeky I know.

I wonder- if Castrol are persistently tearing up money on RR363, why not simply release or license the formula then cease production?, with a well worded disclaimer against any issues from people/companies home-brewing. Win-win for Castrol.

Just my 2c
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1974
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 17 April, 2016 - 08:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nick,

DOT 5 is a definite no-no, just ask Bill Coburn about the problems a certain Phantom in Canberra experienced after a previous maintenance "specialist" replaced the brake fluid with Dot 5. Drums of acetone were required to flush the DOT 5 out of the brake system before replacing it with the proper fluid.

The problem with DOT 5 is that it is a silicone fluid and does not mix with moisture, this is not a problem with race cars where the fluid is replaced on a regular basis but not so good for normal cars that have long periods between services.

The inevitable water contamination of the DOT 5 fluid turns to steam when the fluid gets hot - as we know steam is a gas and is compressible. This leads to a loss of braking capability which is not a good thing on public roads..................

No need to say anything else, just use your imagination for the consequences.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1876
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 17 April, 2016 - 09:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mr. Gore,

Everything you say about DOT5 fluid is true.

That being said, DOT5.1 is back to being glycol based.

Don't ask me what genius decided they should stick with the 5 primary number. If ever there was a time where a "full version number" change should have been made this was it.

See:

What's the difference between DOT 5 and DOT 5.1 brake fluid

What's the difference between DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 brake fluid

or the Wikipedia page on DOT 5.1 brake fluid

Brian
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Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert
Prolific User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 136
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Sunday, 17 April, 2016 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

...info from a mountanbike website ))) I think the mountanbikers take brakes as serious as we do!
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1168
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 17 April, 2016 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My fluid change is due. I think I am going to go with DOT3. The reason for this is the tests Brian has run and most of the other evidence is based on the DOT3 mix. I am sure I will be corrected as to the suitability of DOT4 and DOT5.1 (and would welcome any comments) but since the vast majority of the research has been carried out using DOT3, then it seems prudent to me to use DOT3.

Geoff
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Nick Adlam
Experienced User
Username: crewes_control

Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2015
Posted on Sunday, 17 April, 2016 - 04:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David

Just reiterating- I did mean DOT 5.1 Glycol, not DOT 5 Silicone (shudder!). I've read some sad stories of massive repair bills from contamination. I assume the unfortunate Phantom required a complete system restoration??.

Geoff, I hear you on your preference for DOT3- it does appear to blend well with Castor, as Brian has showed. After going with Castrol Super DOT 4 and 10%, I poured some leftover into a sealed jar and have left it sit outside for the last 6 months without disturbing it. Like Brian's, there's no turbidity, gelling or signs of separation that I can see, so far!. A nice clear amber colour, like RR363.
The car doesn't seem to be complaining either. The 10% soothed my OCD when on a Christmas road trip through Nth Qld's humid summer scorchers with the AC running fulltime.

I do respect RR363 as well.

My 2c
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1976
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 17 April, 2016 - 07:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nick,

My fault for assuming DOT 5.1 was still Silicone based and neglecting to check before posting.

Bill Coburn did contact me when he encountered the problem with the Phantom enquiring where to obtain acetone in bulk. I referred him to his local Bunnings store who stock acetone in 5 litre tins and who can "order in" 20 litre drums through their Trade Counter.

I have never felt the need to upgrade from DOT 4 for my daily drivers as I am a great believer in preventative maintenance and changing the brake fluid on a regular basis is also a good opportunity to inspect the entire vehicular brake system.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 981
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 21 April, 2016 - 07:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

They should have called Silicon DOT 5.1. Dot Silicon not 5.1.
I use elephant shitte or Comma Dot 4 super duper plus Dot3/4.

I reckon the bloke who named it only had one hand and has to not waste numberes
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 669
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 April, 2016 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Impressive. I have mixed up some YAK and have no problems.
Incidentally: if you heat the fluid after it has water in it, it will drive the water out. Glycol breaks down into acidic components above about 350F. though. I think if the Cars are regularly driven enough to get the fluid hot it keeps it in better condition.
The ethylene glycol dehydration process is widely used to dehydrate raw natural gas in the oil field. The gas is bubbled through glycol which absorbs the water, then the glycol is heated to drive the water off. Process goes wrong on occasion, and Poof! 2000 gallons goes down the pipeline somewhere!
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John Beech
Prolific User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Tuesday, 06 December, 2016 - 08:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On 10 November 2015, a bit more than a year ago, Brian wrote in part . . . "When spring comes and it's time to do my next full brake fluid change on the Shadow II I hope I will remember to take a picture of exactly what I find in the reservoir before doing it. The YAK363 that's in there has been subject to normal use for at least two years by that time."

. . . which begs the question, Brian, did you remember to a) change the fluid last spring and b) did you take pictures? Inquiring minds want to see the YAK363 fluid after 2+ year of actual use.

John, who after extensive reading on this forum has decided enough evidence exists to give YAK363 (10%) a go so I'm thinking of ordering up a gallon of the best I can lay in, Baker's AA degummed (versus pharma-grade which isn't degummed).
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2145
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 06 December, 2016 - 01:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

No, I did not. Other life issues have been intervening that took (and, to a lesser extent, continue to take) priority over doing anything in regard to SRH33576.

I actually have her up on ramps at the moment planning to do an oil change, coolant change, and hydraulic system flush and fill as time and weather allow.

I shall definitely follow through on the picture taking. I may even do that before the changing just so I don't forget. That won't be over the next few days, though. It's going to be cold and rainy and I work in my driveway.

Brian
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John Beech
Prolific User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 114
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 December, 2016 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I hate working in my driveway. This, in part because I did so for many years because we never had a house with a garage. Always a carport, or nothing at all but bare concrete. I too, used ramps. Then 12 years ago we moved to Orlando and as it happened, this home had a garage. However, while the sellers had converted it into a family room, I soon ripped the wall out and installed an insulated overhead metal door with remote opened. Now we park our cars inside - well, Lynn does because I have been keeping Lulu in 'my' parking spot. I park my Harley Sportster behind her and the trucks live outside. However, now that I have bought a 2-post lift, then once I have sorted Tootsie, Lulu will live on the lift (where she won't be in my way). This, until I have time to return to working on her (she's something of a project having spent the last 8-10 years in limbo while I've concentrated on my business). Anyway, the real reason for the lift isn't to work on cars but to vacate the garage (so that Tootsie may live there instead). Frankly, I have come to love having the cars inside if for no other reason than to unload groceries when it's raining, or because it's never too hot or cold when you want to use the car. Anyway, if you have a garage and it's full of crap (like so many I've seen), I urge you consider a yard sale or a few trips to the dump to free up space.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 749
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Wednesday, 07 December, 2016 - 04:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Totally agree John.

For years my garage was full of crap my wife and kids put there when they got sick of things inside or in their rooms.

After 10 years I held a garage sale without telling them.

Everything they discarded was sold to anyone and everyone.

The kids were like
"where is my ---------"
"What about my-------"
"You didn't sell my ---------"
My reply was, well it's been here for 10 years, you obviously didn't need/want it.
I even put on a sausage sizzle and sold 200 sausage sandwiches, and then sold the BBQ I cooked it all on!!!!

I made $1700 that day. Anything left went to charity.

I was sick of doing love jobs on family cars, friends of friends cars out in the sun and rain.
Now my garage looks like this.

I can fit another small car behind the Shadow.



Life is good when you can use your own garage
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Bob Reynolds
Grand Master
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 436
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 07 December, 2016 - 08:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Life is good when you can use your own garage"

Indeed it is. Mine is used as an engineering and woodworking workshop - and not for storing cars!
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 759
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Sunday, 11 December, 2016 - 02:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hey Bob.

If it's tidy show us a pic.
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ross kowalski
Prolific User
Username: cdfpw

Post Number: 212
Registered: 11-2015
Posted on Monday, 12 December, 2016 - 02:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick,

If you were to go with mini's back behind the Shadow, you could probably have two cars back there.

Your story about the sale reminded me of my old neighbor. He had a bunch of boxes all taped up for moving on his front lawn. I asked him if he was moving. No, he said.

He still hadn't unpacked them from when he moved in 15 years prior.

I asked him if he knew what was in them and he said simply no.

The garbage truck came and hauled them away.
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 761
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Monday, 12 December, 2016 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Ross,

I was actually at one stage considering extending that side of the garage rearwards into the yard. Maybe 4 cars nose to tail. But the cost of re doing the entire rear roof area was amazing!

It is funny to see what some neighbours do isn't it.
I have some great stories that's for sure.

Have you always just "wanted" to know what were in those boxes Ross?
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1224
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 15 December, 2016 - 02:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes.
Roofs cost lots of money.

Its always best to properly price stuff up before one starts. One is often surprised at the full finished cost. Easiest way is to get a quote from a builder and see what one can do them selves to save money but when it comes to roofs be very careful because of water leaks can quickly wreak a roof structure.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2159
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 15 December, 2016 - 09:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Back to the original topic. Two additional photos, one of the sample I've been showing in the ink bottle and another of the original YAK363 that I mixed in 2009 and to which no water has been added since then. It has been stored in a plastic bottle since that time.

The lighting this evening was under fluorescent lights that are full spectrum, to while the color has gotten darker it looks even darker than it would because the other photos are taken outside in natural sunlight.

YAK363 plus water

YAK363 at 7 years old

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 1226
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 16 December, 2016 - 12:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes back to yak.

I am very confident that Yak 363 is quite safe to use in Shadows and early Citroens DS cars so equipped with dot based systems.

Penrite Oil of Australia have suggested 2% plus of castor and DOT4 as a suitable mix I use 5% castor.

Plus Mr Vogel has tested the stuff for 7 years and given that the change period is 2 to 3 years no worries. Maybe get away with 4 years

Thank you Brian for the time and trouble you have taken to sort the Yak question out.

For those who have not tackled a fluid change it takes about an hour only and is now cheap.
5 litres of DOT 4 15
500ml of castor oil 5

So for the mere cost of 20 sorted for a couple of years or so. Cheap Cheap.

Its an easy job. And a good start for the hydraulic novice and obvious on inspection.

Tip.
when mucking about with dot fluid or antifreeze have a bucket of soapy water and sponge any spills and wash down with water this will instantly dissolve fluid and protect paint.

never use the scuttle top to place the reservoir caps on unless you want circles on the paint finish.

Afterwards I wash the front of the car down with water and a quick coat of polish.
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h_kelly
Grand Master
Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 326
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 01:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Anyone know anything about this product

https://www.bardahl.nl/en/product/53400-brake-fluid-dot-3-en/
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Robert J. Sprauer
Grand Master
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 401
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 02:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm sure if you add pharma grade castor oil you can use as an RR363 substitute.
I use a mix myself
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h_kelly
Grand Master
Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 327
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 02:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Indeed Robert, however it actually says rr363 on the container? .
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Robert J. Sprauer
Grand Master
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 402
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 02:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geez..I did not notice. Well that is interesting and an email should be sent to company for clarification.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2839
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 06:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My guess is that this is Bardahl's part number, but it would be interesting to see what they'd say.

Castrol would likely have a fit if they thought that anyone was infringing on RR363, the product. And Bardahl is no tiny outfit and would not likely want to expose themselves legally.

By the way, the ongoing experiment remains pretty much as it has been. The color is significantly more yellow than at the outset but there is no separation after 10 years.

Brian
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 3275
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 09:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

I suggest it is safe to stop your experiment now as 10 years is at least 3 times longer than the usual recommended service life for DOT 3 fluids. I would be very surprised if you haven't changed your hydraulic fluid at least twice during this experiment.

Whilst having no specific chemistry knowledge concerning the susceptibility of castor oil to oxidation, I suspect the yellowing of the fluid mix is due to oxidation/moisture absorption of the castor oil/DOT 3 or both.

.
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Larry Kavanagh
Grand Master
Username: shadow_11

Post Number: 441
Registered: 5-2016
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think that experiment would divulge more if the mixture was to be stored in a steel container as the water content would have some metal to interact with and apart from the rust it would create the separation might become more obvious as the rusting metal might attract the water away from the brake fluid but I also have very little experience in chemistry.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2841
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 09 May, 2019 - 01:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Oh, it would have been long ago safe to discontinue this little experiment, but since it's just a matter of letting the stuff sit on the shelf, and the samples are small, it just continues until I finally throw them away.

My only interest when this experiment was undertaken was about the miscibility of DOT3 and pharmaceutical grade castor oil, and whether it would separate out after years of wide temperature and humidity changes. That was enough for me. I invite others to follow in my footsteps and create conditions/variables and report on those.

Since YAK363 has been in my cars for some years now, and been working just fine, I am perfectly happy with continuing its use.

Brian

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