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Alan Scard
New User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 05:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ref. 1972 Shadow SRH 13952.
Final Drive Pinion oil seal.
Due to a split drive shaft gaiter I have taken off the final drive complete with the cross-member. I intend to replace the drive shafts and pinion oil seals. The drive shaft oil seals are marked “C.Weston W25017537 R4” which I believe are freely available at a much reduced price than the ones from Rolls Specialists. Although I do not intend to replace the Ball and Trunnion joint shaft bearing, they are marked “KLNJ1 ½ RHP”. My problem at the moment is removing the pinion nut. The workshop manual says to turn back the tab washer, which my car does not have, and then use “locking tool RH 7862”. Of course I do not have such tool and there is no picture to see what it looks like. I have a 1-11/16” AF socket that fits the nut, but due to the nut being in a tapered recess of the pinion flange, it only fits about 2/3rds of the ½” deep nut. I can fabricate some brackets to stop the flange turning whilst undoing the nut, but as the nut has to go back on at between 275 and 300 lbs.ft. I feel that I need to make sure the socket is seated down over the whole of the ½” deep nut. Why the recess is tapered I do not know, but I am thinking now that I may have to grind a chamfer of about 0.09” along the side of the socket for about 0.17”.
I would appreciate any comments from anyone who has come across the problem before as I am sure I am not the first.
Regards Alan from the UK.
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 08:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Alan...
First, citing my qualifications as mostly a novice compared to others here, just the same, that amount of "adjustment" to the socket seems rather minimal, and once applied such that the socket seats fully, problem addressed and I would not think that it should prevent you from proceeding, and you now have the first of your eventual assortment of "special" RR tools!
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 557
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Grind the socket down.

Before undoing mark nut and shaft with dot punch. Tighten to align the dots rather than torque but taking note of how much torque.

The locking washer was probably deleted in favour of chemical locking so a spot of locktite. If the nut is a nyloc they are once only use. But locktite will work.
Stuff like this is infuriating.

GL4 75/90 oil. Do not use GL5 75/90 it has an additive that rots copper based alloys.

Don't forget the breather or ventilator. Clean out with petrol or kerosene.

I think the final drive was unpainted. It will look nice in an axle way when its cleaned. The aluminum will contrast nicely with gloss black frames.

Also check the torque arm and mounting cross member around the mountings for cracks. There is a mod should it be cracked. Best way is media blast the bits first then any cracks will stick out like a sore thumb. While the final drive is out if the way check hydraulic pipe work access is easier.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1691
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 05 October, 2015 - 01:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob_UK wrote: Do not use GL5 75/90 it has an additive that rots copper based alloys.

This statement is not strictly true. There are yellow-metal friendly GL-5 EP oils and there are non-yellow-metal friendly ones. If you're faced with having nothing but GL-5 readily available you will need to either write the manufacturer directly or hope that they have this listed on their spec sheet. The test regarding copper/yellow metal compatibility is ASTM D130. Here's a brief description regarding that test:

ASTM D130

Copper Strip Corrosion Test ASTM D130

The Copper Strip Corrosion Test ASTM D130 is used to evaluate the corrosive tendencies of oils to copper containing materials.

In this test, special three-inch copper strips are cleaned, polished and immersed into a test tube containing the oil being evaluated. The test tube is held in a water bath for three hours at 212ºF (100ºC). At the end of the exposure period, the strip is removed and cleaned. The strips are compared to a specially prepared set of standardized reference strips and rated against these standards on a scale of Class 1 (slight tarnish) to Class 4 (heavy tarnish).

An industrial gear lubricant that exhibits a 1b classification in this test is considered to exhibit good resistance corrosion to yellow metals.
[Note: 1a is even better than 1b. This article on the Machinery Lubrication site entitled, The Effects of EP Additives on Gearboxes, actually contains a photo of the ASTM D130 standardized comparison strips for the copper test.]

If the tech specs mention a 1a or 1b result on ASTM D130 then you're fine using that GL-5 EP oil (at least as far as yellow metals go).

If you can get GL-4, and it's still an active spec and still pretty commonly available, you need not worry as it will be fine with yellow metals.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 560
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Monday, 05 October, 2015 - 06:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

GL4 is readily available in the UK. Whilst cleaning out my conservatory ready for decoration I found a gallon of GL4 and a gallon of Castrol GTX. I forgot all about them. They have been there 15 years. Plus I have 2 gallons of GL4 in my gear oil pump bucket.
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Alan Scard
New User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 06 October, 2015 - 06:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the tip about dot marking the shaft and nut, which I have done. I have ground my socket to fit the pinion nut, but after using an impact driver, hot air gun and a 52" scafold pole, as a lever, the plain nut is not moving. I am thinking of buying Loctite Freeze and Release to see if that works. Any other advice more than welcome. I live in Gosport, Hants in the UK and I suspect you may live in Bournmouth, so perhaps I call phone you sometime, my Tel. is 023 9252 3095.
The Differential Gear Oil I have is Halfords EP 80W/90 bought many years ago and is API GL-5. I will contact Halfords technical people to see if it is "yellow-metal friendly". Where is the "yellow metal" in the final drive?
Regards Alan
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 572
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 06 October, 2015 - 09:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The filler and drain plugs and breather. I am unsure about the thrust washer on the plannet gears in the diff proper. This might be steel with a copper based alloy plating. Sometimes the bearing cages are brass or bronze. Often the bushes in the planet gears are copper based. Oilite or sintered bronze bushes break up fast because the oil gets into the pores.

I didn't know that some GL5 was copper friendly. Sounds daft because GL5 isn't a better oil than GL4. Bit like Dot 5 and Dot 5.1 put the wrong one in and yer brakes will give trouble big time. It just confuses people. The additive to be avoided is Chorinated parrafins.(Nasty stuff it kills animals and plants been around since 1930s) This stuff is an amazing lubrication additive but it rots copper big time and in months not years. I think it might be banned not sure. Snake oil companies use it in engine oil additives. Subtractives might be a better term. Start with a good oil then ruin it.

The moral of the story is to read the tech stuff on the bottle.

To get the nut off you will have to try harder. Try this next. Apply the torque to the nut then have an assistant hit the flange in wards. The idea is that the flange momentarily compresses in lenght and the nut moves a small amount. But but but. The taper roller bearing may get dented races from the hammer blows. So its important to turn the flange between blows.

If all else fails and you are willing to buy a new nut.
Then drill a hole into one side of the nut parallel to the axis of the shaft. Select a drill that misses the thread nut almost breaks out of the side. Do not allow break out because the drill will probably snap. However one can always have another go somewhere else. Use a centre drill and centre punch. Then hit the nut by the hole with sharp cold chesil to split the nut. Get it just right and the nut splits as its being drilled.

The nut is likely a special thread. RR often do this. Probably UNF/UNC 60 degree angle based. Of course new nut means dot marks are irrelevant and its all on the torque. The drive shaft nut for the yoke on the drive shafts is about £50 so this mut is probably about the same. Other makes such as Ford and it would be 5 quid.

Or take the final drive to truck workshop for 3/4 drive impact treatment. After all people do say that RRs are built like trucks. Bugatti called Bentleys (pre 1931) lorries.

I live in Bournemouth. I lived in Portsmouth when I worked for John Brown on submarine oxygen systems. (1977).I made brackets and pipe work by hand. I had friends in Rowner. I lived near the Triangle. Hated the job all day drilling holes and bending stuff all stainless steel. The tools used to chip and burn up.

My email is

reddington1@hotmail.comxox.

The xox on the end of .com is not entered its to stop spam bots automatically sending junk mail.
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Alan Scard
New User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 03:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob,
At last I have managed to remove the pinion nut from the final drive unit. For future reference to others who may face this problem, the way I achieved it is the following. I used a 1.5” angle iron 26” long (just some scrap that I had in the garage) and drilled a hole in it and fixed it to one of the damper holes. I made another bracket about 4” long drilled 2 holes and mounted that to one of the pinion flange holes and the other to the angle iron bolt. This is to stop the flange moving whilst trying to undo the pinion nut. Using the wooden boards 8” x 2” that cover my inspection pit in the garage I strapped the angle iron down onto the boards, see attached photo. With my neighbour standing on the end of the wooden boards, to stop them lifting up, I used a 52” long scaffold bar on the end of the 1-11/16” socket and ratchet. The nut which is torqued to 275 – 300 lbs ft then moved.
I now have my Sykes Pickavant 8 ton hydraulic puller strapped to the pinion flange in an effort to release it. I have soaked the shaft in penetrating oil, with the pinion nut half screwed back on the shaft. I will leave it overnight in the hope that it may free the pinion flange by the morning. My email is alanscard@alanscard.plus.com
Regards Alan
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Alan Scard
New User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 03:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I will try again to upload the photo
AlanPinion nut removal
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 576
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 05:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Don't use pipes on ratchets for extra leverage the ratchet will break.

Well done for getting it off. To get the flange off with out a proper puller. Angle iron across the flange. 2 holes for bolts and nuts. Screw the big nut back on to protect the threads. Big lump of steel between big nut and angle iron. Tighten the 2 nuts and bolts so the angle iron pushes on the pinion shaft. If it won't go easily. Hit angle iron over the pinion shaft.

Or attach a heavy chain to the flange and jerk the chain like a slide hammer.

I think the pinion shaft is a parallel multi spline so it should pull off much much easier than a taper and woodruff key.

I noticed that the final drive is clean was there any paint on it?

The breather is a bit awkward to get at when fitted to car. The breather is just a hole nothing fancy inside. Unscrew and blow out.

Modern seals are better than those 40 years ago even if they look the same the machinery that makes them and the materials has improved.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1698
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 October, 2015 - 02:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob_UK wrote: Don't use pipes on ratchets for extra leverage the ratchet will break.

This is true far more often than not, and given the forces involved in this particular instance Mr. Scard really did luck out.

Investing in an inexpensive breaker bar with the same drive size as your ratchet is generally a far safer investment, particularly if your ratchet is an expensive one to begin with.

Brian, who's had to use what a mechanic friend calls, The Persuader, a length of pipe on the end of a breaker bar or lug wrench, on several occasions. I even had to employ The Persuader on the end of the 3-ft handle of my accumulator wrench, along with percussive shocks, to get those open
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Alan Scard
New User
Username: alanscard

Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2015
Posted on Thursday, 08 October, 2015 - 04:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To Bob and Brian,
I take your point about breaking a socket ratchet, but the one I used on this pinion nut and my other one are both high quality and seem to work ok. After leaving the 8 ton hydraulic puller under tension overnight and soaking the shaft in penetrating oil nothing had moved this morning. As I was just about to swear and have a cup of tea, the delivery man arrived with a can of Locktite Freeze and Release that I had orderd from EBay. By freezing the shaft the puler started to move and I was able to take off the pinion flange. Now all I had to do was remove the oil seal. By using a small machanical puller I was able to hook the ends under the rubber lip of the oil seal, but as the seal has a metal outer face it did not want to move. Again a few squirts of "Freeze" and it came off. I would certainly recommend this product to remove any stubborn item. To answer Bob's question about the condition of my Final Drive. I cleaned it up using "Gunk" using a stiff brush and washing off with water. This takes me back to the 1960's and my Matcless 350cc Motorbike, as this was the way to clean off all the dirt and oil on Motorbikes. The Final Drive was not painted and I have now cleaned up the breather valve. The markings on the oil seal are "Western England 11-251 N.1." The markings on the outer taper roller bearing are "Timkin HM 88649 N Made in England"
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 589
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 08 October, 2015 - 07:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

British Timkin made about the best bearings in the world.

I have broken a Britool ratchet.

The danger is that the ratchet slips and you go and nut the top ball joint or similar. A few mechanics have been injured like this. So just don't trust them. I use a ratchet for speed but use a 18" breaker bar first and last.

All sorted now fitting seals is easy. Grease the inner and outer bits.

My final drive is black. I think its underseal oil and road dust.

The job wasn't too bad too do was it. We say now the it's done.

This is normal mechanicing in cars. The book says undo and remove. But 2 days later one is still on the first sentence.

The real trick is patience. And of course a bit of mechanical nous. The rig you cobbled to together shows you have patience and mechanical nous.
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 65
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 08 October, 2015 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Regarding applying extra torque: Rather than using a breaker and the risk of injury should the ratchet snap, there are gizmos called "torque multipliers" that while pricey ($200US as I recall) are perfectly suited for these purposes. They allow the use of a standard half-inch square drive 18" bar to very easily impart several hundred foot pounds of torque, or in this case, to undo a fastener that has been applied with that amount of torque. I purchased one years ago specifically to tighten some bolts on a particular piece of machinery that required 350 ftlbs and it worked splendidly.

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