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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 899
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 10 August, 2015 - 01:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Folks

I have removed the top roll from my car. I know, to the owners on this site it is a simple procedure, however I found it would have been so much easier if there had been a map published of where the actual setscrews and nuts are positioned. I offer this picture for any future readers who may have occasion to remove the top roll on their car.

My car is a 1974 SY1, SRX18501. Other models may differ.

The photo is viewed from the windscreen end of the top roll. i.e. this is the end that pushes up against the screen.

The four red arrows point to the lugs that take the fixing setscrews. These are accessed by removing the two veneered dash panels, one, the drivers dash panel and the other, the center panel.

The blue arrows point to two studs. The two nuts for these studs are located in recessed holes in the top of the glovebox. They cannot be seen and have to be felt for, since the recessed holes point towards the windscreen. A 7/16" socket on a 1/4" universal joint is the way to loosen them.

The green arrows point at the locating brackets that take the two outer setscrews. Access from the passenger side is obtained by removing the cubby hole under the glovebox. The other is behind the corresponding trim panel on the drivers side.

When the two nuts and six setscrews have been removed, the top roll can be pulled backwards towards the rear of the car until the two studs are disengaged. The top roll can then be carefully lifted out.

toproll

Hope this may help a future owner.

Geoff
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Christian S. Hansen
Experienced User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 11 August, 2015 - 05:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff...
A million thanks! I have often wondered how that task was accomplished and feared to even attempt without guidance. I can now see that without instructions, one would likely never figure it out. Thanks again!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1595
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 11 August, 2015 - 08:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Thanks from me, too. But a caution to SY2 series cars: the SY2 arrangement is just a slight bit different, and easier, in my opinion. The big trick is taking off the tiny piece of wood around the map light to get to the last screw that holds the top roll in place.

In the three or four times I've removed the top roll I don't think I ever bothered taking pictures. I'll have to check.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 397
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 11 August, 2015 - 09:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jobs like this on some cars be a nightmare. I did a Peugeot 306 what a pita.

However with the knowledge of where the bolts are then thats half the job done.

The 306 was a case of take at bit off then find more bolts that were hidden and so on. It took 10 hours. What a pain.

Also the build quality helps a lot. Lesser cars use clips which break and one ends up with a loose dash and a factory back order for clips. Worse some of the clips are part of the dash and one ends up cable tieing stuff in.

Observe torque settings on these bolts because I said so. 5000 ftlbs.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1596
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 11 August, 2015 - 09:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I guess one could consider 5000 ft-lbs, "snug, plus just the tiniest bit more," which has always been my metric.

Since these things screw in to solid metal I've never worried much that I'd overtighten them by doing, "snug, plus just the tiniest bit more."

Brian, who agrees that getting to many things in an RR dash is easier than on a number of other cars
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 405
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 12 August, 2015 - 06:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I use a 1/4 drive ratchet. Its about 4" long. I have a 1/4 drive screw driver with a drive at the handle end. Once loose I nut run with the driver. To tighten just the driver is enough.

I changed the entire dash on an XJ6 and it was quite easy. 2 hours.

The hot rod guys usually hold the entire dash in with two bolts and a multipin plug for the electrics. Any problem 2 bolts and unplug. And repair on the bench.

My Jeep is a nightmare because the dash doesn't actually fit the car properly and taking it out and getting back will go wrong. I have been in there and I don't like the engineering in plastic clips in there.

It appears that the cheaper the car the harder they are to work on.

On some cars the clutch slave cylinder is concentric to the clutch and inside the clutch housing. The slave is connected to the hose with a quick plug connector. Providing nothing goes wrong all fine and dandy. But should the slave or the hose connector leak then its gearbox out. To further irritate sometimes the front subframe has to come off to get the gearbox out.

Shadows are easy to work on. No banana skins for the mechanic to slip up.

My bit of wood on the roll by the screen dimister vents is shedding it's lacquer. I have been picking off with a guitar plectrum. I did think of then using wood oil which is satin shine. But something appears to be obstructing the drivers demist vent. So it's best that the roll is taken off for vent fettling and demist tune up. Last car like this had business cards stuck in the vent. Then I can lacquer the wood properly with clear coat in an aerosol can.

The fettling of Shadows is endless.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 916
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 17 August, 2015 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Whilst searching Tee-one topics for information on how to get behind the central console on an SY1 I came across an article on how to remove the top roll. I missed it before as it is indexed as "Dash trim - Removal for re-varnishing." None of my search strings matched this subject heading at the time, which is why I missed it. The problem is there is so much information in Tee-one topics it is impossible to index it to such a comprehensive degree that it is possible to always get a match. I imagine Bill Coburn must get really exasperated when he see's these duplicate entry's in the forum.

Anyway - here is how to get behind the console by removing the triangular side trim on an SY1. I am hoping I don't come across the precise same topic in the Tee-one archive at some later date.

dash

The bottom of the trim panel has a lip and the top is held in place by just 3 spring clips. The technique is to prize the panel from the top to release the clips and just lift it out.

Note in the photo the blue LED in the bulb holder. Replacing the dashboard and instrument bulbs with LEDs has tranformed the lighting in my car from barely visible to nicely illuminated. The LED's come from ledlight.com. Here's the link for the miniature bulbs (many thanks to Brian)

https://www.ledlight.com/e5-midget-screw-base-led-lights.aspx

The SY1 requires just four of the midget E5 Leds. Two worked straight away and two didn't when I screwed them into the bulb holders on my car. The reason for the failure was two of the bulb holders were wired the wrong way round. As we all know, LED's are polarity sensitive, filament bulbs are not. It was just a case of switching the connectors on the bulb holders.

Since the blue condoms are now unobtainable, I painted the LEDs with modellers light blue enamel paint. Works great.

Geoff
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 88
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Thursday, 01 December, 2016 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff, that's a superb photo starting this thread. However, I'm a little bit confused because you refer to a set screw but this photo shows what I've always understood to be a set screw . . .
Set screw
. . . as used, for example, on the ventilation knobs, where they secure the knobs to a shaft. Thus, I don't understand how a set screw could secure the top roll. Did you perhaps mean a bolt instead? Below de[icts what I refer to as bolt, washer, and nut . . .
Bolt, washer, and nut
. . . and thus, I suspect the two studs use a nut, and the other locations are using a bolt. However, I wonder this; do any of these use washers as well?

Finally, Robert Noel, many thanks for posting the photo of the clips securing the triangular cover at the center console. Most especially the glimpse of the tool used to remove it.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1692
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 01 December, 2016 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John, your top picture is what I call a grub screw.

Second picture a setscrew . . .because it it threaded the full length.

A bolt is not shown and will have a shoulder on it and may 'stall' before tightening the thin brackets up fully.

EVERYTHING has a plain washer on it! :-)

Sometimes the devil's in the detail
. . . other times it's in the translation!!
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 90
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Thursday, 01 December, 2016 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Aha, the English language is playing games with me once again. We in America, in my experience, refer to the fully threaded bolt, which you call a set screw, as a bolt, and that which you refer to as a bolt, as a shoulder-bolt. And the grub screw we call a set screw. More of that boot vs. trunk thing. Thanks for educating me.

Last thing, is it going to be as hard as I anticipate getting my fat axe into position to where I can see and remove these, or will it be worse?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2126
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John,

At least I know it's not only me!!

Other than in the context of RR motorcars, I refer to anything that has a hex head on it and a threaded shaft as "a bolt." I may get more specific, e.g., a carriage bolt, when necessary but it makes no difference whether threaded the entire length or with a shoulder.

I have had a lot of trouble with the "what screw?" reaction when what I'm finding is bolts, but eventually you get used to the terminology.

I long ago got that "grub screw" in UK English is a "set screw" in US English.

Anything that would be called a screw would require the use of a screwdriver to install or extract. (With the exceptions of hex cap and grub/set screws, which use an Allen wrench. Hex cap are a class of their own because they can also be grabbed by that cap, which is usually grooved or knurled).

I have never found removing the top roll to be all that difficult. Once the facia (dash) wood is removed the set screws (bolts) are staring you in the face.

Brian
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Jean-christophe Jost
Experienced User
Username: jc_jost

Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2016
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 01:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Depending on your car there are other "screws" hidden inside the glove box and two others on each leg of the top roll that are not visible (SRH25085)

see here : http://www.icipay.com/MyShadow/autoDB/show.php?action=fiche&id=27&l=
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Bob Reynolds
Grand Master
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 432
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 02:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The screws on this page are more correctly referred to as 'Machine Screws', rather than just 'screws'.

The word 'Screw' on its own would normally refer to a wood screw, which is something completely different.

A machine screw without a head is a Grub Screw.

One of the many definitions says that a (machine) screw screws into a tapped hole, whilst a bolt screws into a nut.

The best (jocular) definiton I've heard is that if a screw is overtightened the threads will strip, whereas if a bolt is overtightened its head will shear off!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2127
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 02:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

It's interesting to see how various people define various objects.

I have never understood how the same object changes name depending on whether it threads in to a tapped hole versus into a captive fastener or having a nut threaded on it.

Personally, I don't think that the word "screw" alone could ever safely be considered to be a wood screw and only a wood screw. There are wood, machine, & sheet metal screws, all of which are incredibly common, as well as deck screws, etc., etc., etc.

I've also never heard anyone refer to a grub or set screw as a machine screw even though it uses "machine threads."

There is an awful lot of "slosh" in this sphere, that's for sure!

Brian
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 927
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 04:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

interestingly - here in Dubai the word screw has a totally different meaning.
Let me explain........
no.....
wait.....
let us wait until September so we can communicate that over some grape or wheat beverage.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2128
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 04:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar,

As does shag here in the USA!

Two (or more) peoples separated by a common language!

Brian
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Bob Reynolds
Grand Master
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 433
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 04:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am of course referring to the terminology here in the UK, and seeing as how we invented all this during the Industrial Revolution, our definitions must be the correct ones!

Almost everybody encounters wood screws, so that is the type of screw that most people automatically think of when the word 'screw' is mentioned (apart from the other obvious meaning!) In fact the term 'wood screw' is not often used, unless it is necessary to avoid ambiguity.

Sheet metal screws are called 'self-tapping screws' over here.
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 09:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And self-tapping has yet a different connotation, but we're really getting R-rated, now! This has been a funny diversion into language. Meanwhile, Geoff has shared via email some higher resolution photos of what's revealed when shot from above (through the windshield). What remains unclear is this; do I have to remove only the wood finished panels to access the light bulbs, or the top roll as well?
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 737
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 07:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Screw, shag all great words, but they can't beat the Aussie terminology.
Root!
Where these all came from, who knows??
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John Beech
Frequent User
Username: jbeech

Post Number: 95
Registered: 10-2016
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 09:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmm, I use root-around (both words together, not just root) to mean, for example, delve, or perhaps rummage through a drawer in search of a small part.

Merriam-Webster define root the usual US-way (tree, tooth, for a team), Cambridge defines it the way I use it with the English (UK) meaning, and the Urbandictionary has the Kiwi/Aussie meaning for root as fuk.

Since I have Australian customers, I suspect I'd better be more careful what I say. This forum is a source of enlightenment, occasionally in unexpected ways!

Last thing, based on this site's origin, I am a little surprised I'm not allowed to use the expression fuk but root is OK to use ;>)
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Patrick Ryan
Grand Master
Username: patrick_r

Post Number: 739
Registered: 4-2016
Posted on Friday, 02 December, 2016 - 09:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Us Aussies are full of surprises.
And we have a slang word for everything John.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2336
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 09:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thread Drift Alert from Moderator arising from previous posts.

John,

Regarding word use - we Australians are determined to keep our unique vocabulary alive and in daily use. We have already lost a significant number of our indigenous languages however it is pleasing to see government-funded indigenous language teaching is now included in the NSW public school curriculum alongside the more traditional European and Asian languages.

We already have too many "Americanisms" in common use in Australia to the detriment of our own language from the ubiquitous US TV programmes, series and films. "Buddy" instead of "mate", "gal" instead of "sheila", "guy" instead of "bloke"; "hi" instead of the classic "g'day" or "how you're goin'", the list is endless.

I am a "bushie" rather than a "city slicker" and I try to keep the old sayings alive but fighting the mass media is a losing battle; one thing I never will accept is being described as a "country bumpkin" however being a "bush lawyer" and/or "can talk the legs off an iron pot" is sometimes mentioned .

In the context of the reference above to "root"; a "wombat" can be taken figuratively and literally depending where the commas are inserted - a Wombat eats, roots, shoots and leaves/a Wombat eats roots, shoots and leaves.

More examples of Aussie slang for anyone interested are on the following links [make sure you read all the headers Animals|Behaviour|Events|Objects|People|Phrases|Places on the first link]:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/61847/25-awesome-australian-slang-termshttps://www.australianexplorer.com/slang/places.htm

http://mentalfloss.com/article/61847/25-awesome-australian-slang-terms

David - "dinki-di" and proud of it.......also guilty of irresistable thread drift.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2133
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

There are times when apologies for thread drift are necessary, but this isn't one of them.

It seems that quite a few participants have been willing to wander off into this little language diversion.

Brian
P.S. I got an interesting reaction to the use of "toss off" (American sub-dialect - to produce something quickly and with little effort or concern, e.g. toss off some copies) when I used it with a British English reader. (I don't know whether the British definition, which has to do with producing a very specific something, sometimes quickly and with little effort, sometimes not, carries over to the rest of the Commonwealth Countries.)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2339
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

I have never heard the slang version of "toss off" used in Australia so it may be a Northern Hemisphere specialty. The closest I can recall is "visiting Mr/Mrs Palmer [as appropriate to sexual orientation] and the five children".
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 441
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 02:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David...
Recalling an earlier life as an 18-wheeler (lorry) owner-operator, the applicable reference was to either "choking the chicken", or my favorite..."spanking the monkey".
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1505
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 02:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A while back Bob_uk, when describing how to set carb butterfly valves used the term "fag paper". I had a smile at that one, wondering how many Americans would have the slightest idea as to what he meant.

Geoff
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 929
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 02:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

this thread is cracking me up.
choking the chicken...... hahahahahahahaha
Mrs Palm is the one we normally refer to not Mrs Palmer - and strangely enough Mrs Palm also has 5 daughters...
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2134
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 03:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Cigarette paper. And I wonder how many people have any acquaintance with that at all these days. There are very few who roll their own cigarettes (though, other things, perhaps more frequently).

Brian, who, being a big ol 'mo, knows that a fag here and a fag across the pond are not necessarily the same thing (though the epithet is actually used pretty much everywhere)
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 930
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 03:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I will confess to having rolled my own "fags" when i was a poor student in the 70s and 80s. I think we used to use Golden Virginia or something that sounds like that.
How does that sound to our American brothers? "rolled my own fags"..... hahahaha
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 2340
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 05:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

Your terms are also commonly used by older members of our population in Australia plus "pull the pud" and "stroke the one-eyed snake" amongst many others.

Omar,

Interesting how things are edited in various parts of the world - I admit I deliberately made the term non-sexist given the diversity of orientation in today's society.

Mrs Palm is very apt for your part of the world whereas Mrs Palmer is more traditional for the European-derived English-speaking countries.

Brian,

English - Australian Dictionary

fag - roll-your-own cigarette using hand-rolled tobacco and a special cigarette paper. As a child, I was very proficient in hand-rubbing "Log Cabin" tobacco and rolling the tobacco in "Tally Ho" cigarette papers for my grandfather who smoked incessantly - I still love the smell of hand-rubbed cured tobacco but cannot stand the smell of burning tobacco.

faggot - insulting and offensive description for a male homosexual or a contemptuous description of an old unattractive woman.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1506
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 05:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I guess terminology is much more internationalized now, partly due to the internet, but 30 years ago in the UK fag solely meant cigarette and a faggot was a meatball. I've had some embarrassing moments having to actually describe what I wanted because I did not know the American term for them. Two things that come to mind are circlip and blu-tac. I had an alarmed look from an assistant in Walmart when I said I wanted to buy a torch. Also wasted 10 mins of a mechanics time when I asked a local Ford dealership to check the gearbox on my car. My wife also has had embarrassing moments, asking where the rubber was whilst giving a seminar and using the word prophylactic in a meeting. Once you get on to actual sentences the problems are magnified. Ordering hamburgers on a drive through was really problematic. I could not understand why I always got a cheeseburger until I realized that the word "please" rhymes with "cheese". The key is to just say "canageta hamburger".

Geoff
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Christian S. Hansen
Grand Master
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 442
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 03 December, 2016 - 09:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Didn't Oliver Twist consider faggots to be bundles of sticks? for burning or whatever?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 2135
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2016 - 03:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Although you are technically correct in your fully written out definitions, I'm quite sure that you have heard the "short version" used in place of the long.

I've certainly been called the short version (luckily, entirely in the past unless it should recur) many more times than the long.

Before now I had never, ever heard of the equivalence between faggot and meatball. I have no idea what a blu-tac is, but a circlip is a spring clip. It's interesting how prophylactic has taken on the meaning of condom almost exclusively outside of medical circles, where prophylactic and prophylaxis are still commonly used terms for preventive and prevention, respectively.

As to Christian's offering, that's a definite yes. And with that "for burning" think about how that got extended as it did.

Language, and sometimes particularly vulgar language, is fascinating when you start digging in to its history.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1507
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 04 December, 2016 - 04:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

Blu-tac is office putty. I get snap ring for circlip, which is similar to spring clip. A rubber, in the context of the schoolroom, should be called an eraser in the US. US translation = condom (which is also now common usage in the UK). Torch = flashlight. When I asked for the gearbox to be checked on my car the mechanic (out of sight of me - I was in the customer area) was checking the steering - I should have said transmission.

As for faggots - yummy

faggot

Geoff

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