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Michael Moran
Experienced User
Username: mjcmoran

Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, 29 June, 2015 - 06:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello there

Perhaps someone could assist...

The Cruise Control linkage on my 1974 Shadow has somehow become disconnected - not broken. May have been disconnected then forgotten about when a brake pump spring was replaced. Does anyone know where in the Workshop Manual this is dealt with. I simply cannot find any mention of it after some time searching.

Failing this, I presume the little ball bearings in the ball bearing chain link that emerges from the diaphragm slip into the slot attached to the arm which then attaches to the throttle control. How many ball bearings do you leave free or do you simply attach the final one.

How tight should the chain be? I seem to remember it hanging fairly loosely. Sliding the 'chain' into the slot is easy enough but what is the logic of the adjustment?

Michael in Warsaw
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Bob Reynolds
Prolific User
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 276
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Monday, 29 June, 2015 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm no expert on this, but I don't think this adjustment is critical. It is a positive feedback system, so the bellows will pull the link until the speed reaches the desired level.

The only effect of a bad adjustment will be that the range is reduced. The chain on mine is slightly slack at idle, to avoid it affecting the idling speed.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 795
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 29 June, 2015 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There is also an excellent article on the speedostat control here:

http://rrtechnical.info/SY/TSD4200/speedostat.pdf

Geoff
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Michael Moran
Experienced User
Username: mjcmoran

Post Number: 43
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 30 June, 2015 - 01:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Bob.

I will try this reattachment first before embarking courageously on any sort of rebuilding effort on the unit itself as indicated in the excellent and fascinating but frighteningly prolix article link sent me by Geoff - that is if I ever try to engage it again the way traffic is on European motorways in 2015!

The unit may still continue to be in working order.

I must say I hardly ever use it these days (although I often did 20 years ago).Finding out it was no longer operative was rather a vague gesture in a moment of motoring boredom on a strangely deserted motorway early on a Sunday last weekend. A surprise in fact as it was useful and worked quite well except if engaged below 40 mph. I read somewhere this was not advisable anyway.

I seem to remember the chain always being slightly slack at idle too.

Now I understand why my researches in the Workshop Manual came to naught.

Silence on the operation of "Wilmot Speed Control" from the R-REC forum in the UK. Your forum often offers such prompt sterling advice (of course without making invidious comparisons!)

Will let you know how I get on.

Michael
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 203
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 30 June, 2015 - 07:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My crude control went wrong. And after a bit of poking around I found that one of the buttons was jammed in thus breaking the circuit. So I tried to ease the button by polishing the button but it flew out of the lathe chuck and where it went I know not where.
So I made 2 from stainless with 3 thou clearance. Spot of petroleum jelly.

My crude control hunts, the car continually speeds up and slows down by 1 mph. I adjusted the toilet chain bit and it got worse so I put it back to whence it came from.

I would reconnect the toilet chain with a bit of slack.

I thought the cruise crude control went down to 26mph.

At the time the Speedstat was about the only one on the market. My jeep one is much better. But I don't like cruise control. I only use it to see if it still works.


I wonder how many people use cruise control. I suspect not many.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 797
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 30 June, 2015 - 07:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It's really useful in the US where traffic densities are much lower. In the UK I never used cruise control, even on the motorways. It seems to me it is just a fashion item in the UK. Same went for aircon. On the odd hot day in the UK I wanted to feel the heat - rarely used the aircon.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1431
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 30 June, 2015 - 08:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

This is another of those things that was improved (as far as I'm concerned, anyway) as the years went on. I think it was before the SY1/SY2 split when the Speedostat disappeared and was replaced with the system that continued on through the SY2 series cars.

Of course, the SY2 cars have two (at least) different twists on the same theme. My 1978 SS-II has a single solenoid on the bellows unit while the 1979 SW-II has two. I eventually need to figure out what's up with the cruise control this time. It's not working on the SS-II and I don't think it's a relay this time, but I don't know how to test the solenoid (nor whether there's a functional substitute if it so happens to be dead).

Since you're now in Florida I am quite sure that air conditioning is de rigueur and so would cruise control be if you're making any trips up and down your state.

Brian, who remembers the drive from the Florida state line to Miami being as long or longer than from Virginia to the line
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 798
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 30 June, 2015 - 01:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

Absolutely, aircon and cruise control are essential here in Florida. Daily temperatures are already 90F(32C) and set to rise in July and August. Same goes for cruise control. However, I found that in the UK both are not really essential, even though most UK cars come with them as standard. The UK enjoys a moderate climate with only occasional "heatwave" weather when the temperature may creep over 90F (32C). Since I quite liked the hot days, I rarely used the aircon. Also, I found I never used cruise control in the UK, due to the totally different style of driving there.

I remember very nearly running out of gas on the drive from Miami to Tampa a few years ago. I couldn't believe there were no gas stations en-route. Admittedly I left Miami on just half a tank but we only just made it to the first gas station, on fumes. I really didn't fancy being stranded in the middle of nowhere just as the sun was going down. You will know most Floridians have loaded guns in their gloveboxes - we were imagining the worst.

Geoff
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Michael Moran
Experienced User
Username: mjcmoran

Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 30 June, 2015 - 04:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and information.

There is simply too much traffic on motorways in Europe these days, even in Germany, to utilize this device to its full design extent.

Actually I too switched it on to see of it was still working. The 'hunting' you speak of I also have and is not pleasant I agree but these were such early days for such things! Considering it is the 50th anniversary of the SS such forward design thinking was fairly amazing.

Michael
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1436
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 01 July, 2015 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Michael,

My only nit to pick is calling cruise control "forward design thinking" by the time Crewe adopted it. It wasn't.

It was the rare exception for Crewe to be ahead of the pack as far as new technology went. They tended to be very conservative and virtually never "early adopters" of new automotive technology. They stuck with their own tried and true technology (which, by all measures, was the best of its time, but often held over long after "its time") and wanted to see that others had "shaken out the bugs" before adopting something.

I vividly recall being told the story, most likely apocryphal, of someone singing the praises of a Cadillac with what were the latest innovations at the time, and a Rolls-Royce owner or dealer replying, "Oh, that stuff is for `the Cadillac people.`" I don't find the story impossible to believe even if it is apocryphal.

Brian
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Michael Moran
Experienced User
Username: mjcmoran

Post Number: 45
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 01 July, 2015 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Brian.

You are always a fund of more accurate information.

There were a few bugs in the SS, however, that were not properly shaken out but that are only now really coming to light after 50 years. What other car can boast that record apart from Bentley?

That being said it is the most reliable car I have ever owned. Also the least expensive to run apart from petrol consumption of course.

Even after 28 years of ownership I still see this old friend through rose-tinted spectacles!

Michael
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 211
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 01 July, 2015 - 08:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Michael.
Your experience mirrors mine. After 26 years my Shadow has been very reliable. Even better than my merc 207D.RIP. died 2005.

At the moment my car is being fettled ready for the Queen's highway.

My paint work is a bit tatty at the moment so I wear cheap sun glasses which I got from ZZ Top.

I would rather pay for petrol than continual repairs that some cars seem to need. A 2k bill for common rail diesel problem is not unknown and petrol isn't that expensive.

These are robust cars and pampering is not needed.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 472
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Timely topic as the Wraith just coughed up the Parts from the vacuum actuator: "Ah, what's this extra spring?" As if it were not apart enough already!
"Robust" is an excellent word. The mechanicals are; the cosmetics so fragile though.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1438
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 01:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

While I agree with the overall assessment that these are robust cars, I still never cease to be amazed at some of the, "This part could likely have been made of paper and survive 100 years, but let's cast it in solid metal," and, conversely, "This thing is likely to be stressed repeatedly, but plastic will do," decisions that were made in regard to these cars.

Some of the mechanicals are every bit as fragile as the cosmetics. I won't even get into the endless violations of the KISS principle of engineering where it would have been far better had it been followed.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 215
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 04:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am a great believer in KISS. Modern car designers should take note.

However it must be remembered that Shadows weren't designed to be restored or last this long.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1439
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 04:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

All I can say is given the number of Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars that have remained on the road *long* after they were produced, and in staggering percentages compared to most other marques [even top end ones], you'd think that Rolls-Royce would have long ago started designing with far longer than average longevity in mind.

I expect the proportion of modern Rolls-Royce cars living on in to the distant future to remain very high with Bentley significantly less so, at least proportion of numbers produced speaking.

I hope there's at least some small knowledge of this likelihood factored in during design.

Brian, who knows RR in the 1970s was really, really not in a great financial state
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 216
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 05:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

How long would one expect a car to last?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1440
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 07:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

Given the longevity of Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars I don't know what the outer limit will be.

Not counting the Rolls-Royces my youngest car is 19 (soon to be 20) model years old and still going strong. My daily driver is 26 years old and still going strong as well. [Buick and Cadillac, respectively].

I guess it depends on the "quality class" of car and the era in which it was produced. I would not have expected anything like the routine longevity one can achieve in even "low end" cars from around the late 1970s or early 1980s onward in earlier cars.

All I'm saying is that when you get into the rarified atmosphere of Rolls-Royce, where the phrase "custodian" rather than "owner" is aptly used, considerations for longevity of five decades or more would not be unreasonable. These are cars that are routinely legacy vehicles in the literal sense of the word legacy. I don't expect the same design considerations, particularly with an eye toward longevity, in a Ford Fiesta (for one example) that I do in a Rolls-Royce. The former is, from its inception, thought of as a disposable transportation appliance while the latter is certainly not.

Brian
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 473
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 07:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have a '51 Buick which, other than not being air conditioned, is still serviceable. A buddy has a 1914 Ford.
Earlier Rolls-Royces such as the 40/50 hp, were intended to last, but rapid development in automotive technology caused later models to be more desirable. I think this, together with the efficiency of mass production and changing tastes, caused autos and lots of other manufactured goods to be designed for a more finite life.
Of course, a more desirable product with timeless appeal (like, for example, a Rolls-Royce) will be more likely to be cared for, preserved, and restored.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 219
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 08:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

50 years sounds Ok for a Shadow.Is that the whole car or just major components.

If one accepts that paint fades and trim gets scruffy ( what we call patina) and chrome gets pitted. Then a Shadow will last 50 plus years.

I am driving around in 50 year old technology that was 10 years out of date in 1965.

Paint even if never allowed sun light will still deteriorate. The chemical processes in paint just slowly carries on until its repainted. Leather will always crease. Lacquer on wood will crack eventually.

One cannot expect every bit to last 50 years. I don't know where the lines are drawn.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1441
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 09:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

I'm not talking about things that one knows, particularly in the environment of a car interior, have predictable service lives that cannot be expected to vary by huge amounts (given the same type of care).

I'm talking design decisions. A good example is the tiny plastic bushings that were used on the climate control flaps or the wiring to the window motors that's just not up to its task over the long term. Had those bushes been brass or bronze they wouldn't crack and jam things up. Had the wiring used been heavier gauge (and the stuff on my Cadillac is much, much heavier) some of the issues we see would never have cropped up.

These cars are not cars where cutting corners on mechanical bits and pieces makes the slightest bit of sense given what we know about their likely lifespans.

I guess that I expect cars like Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maybach (or Mercedes-Maybach), high-end Mercedes, Aston Martin, high-end BMW, Maserati [these days], and others to design with the idea that these cars are meant, from the time on the drawing board, to last generations.

Given the amount of money that's being asked for these cars I don't think that's an outrageous consideration.

Of course, I'm also someone that thinks that likely long-term maintenance tasks being made easy to perform should be factored in as well in cars "of a certain provenance". Cars that require the engine to be removed to change the spark plugs, even given the far longer service life they now have, should not ever get off of the drawing board.

Oh, well, I know better than to expect that the latter will every happen. It's all about what's fastest on the assembly line, even in marques like Bentley and Rolls-Royce. I couldn't believe the disaster that was the blower motors in the Seraph era cars. The very idea that forgetting to change a pollen filter could, often did, lead to blower motor death that then required pretty much the front half of the passenger compartment to come out to replace them was an outrage that would have made even utterly non-litigious me consider going to court. This kind of flimsy, and that's all it can be called, design in a car like a Rolls-Royce is simply not acceptable.

Brian, who loves his cars from Crewe, warts and all, but who won't call the warts "beauty marks" or claim, "It's part of the charm."
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Christian S. Hansen
Experienced User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 02 July, 2015 - 02:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian...
While I agree almost entirely with your sentiments regarding planned maintenance issues, I respectfully suggest that you are not giving due consideration to "fashionable obsolescence". I doubt that the designers lose the least bit of sleep nor give a rat's behind about some "enthusiast" that will come into possession of one of their products 20-50 years down the line. They are marketing to the original purchaser and while I regretably have no direct experience in that regard, I would suspect that anyone who can afford a showroom new Wraith or Phantom (and not forgetting that they are ALL sold originally to someone of that financial capacity) probably neither tinkers with their toy nor plans to keep it beyond its fashionable "best if used by" date anyway. They just go buy another new one and leave the depreciated ones to us "lesser" folks!
As to longevity, I routinely drive daily models that are 50, 60, and 80 years old. They were "daily drivers" when originally sold, and continue to be still. When someone admires them, I jokingly say "Hey, look around. I'm stuck with the oldest car on the block. I only wish I could afford a new car, but this is my lot in life!"
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Robert Noel Reddington
Prolific User
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 227
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 03 July, 2015 - 06:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rolls Royce only sell new cars old Royces are of passing interest only.

AX 201. This is the UK reg of the original Silver Ghost. BMW own the car. The car is worth say 5m quid. 5m quid is peanuts to BMW and that's about as far as RR heritage goes. A handful of cars.

The plastic bushes and dodgy window wiring is easy to repair.

Anyway whats the point of having an old car as a hobby if it doesn't go wrong. Servicing only gets boring.


Note AX 201 appeared in the film Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines. Robert Morley was the owner in the film.
The engine went pistons up in the 1950s and they nearly fitted the engine from the apprentice training centre. But they managed to repair the original engine.
AX201 was the show car chassis and painted silver with extra nickle plating.
Up until the Phantom 1 the Ghosts were called 40/50 hp cars. 1926 RR renamed them all as Ghosts. Not Silver Ghosts if I remember correctly.
In those days RR didn't know if the 40/50 would be replaced. Nowadays they know there's another car to be designed before they have even started building the current one.
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Michael Moran
Experienced User
Username: mjcmoran

Post Number: 46
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Monday, 03 August, 2015 - 06:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One frustrating aspects of forum postings is that all too often we fail to hear the final outcome of a long correspondence on a subject. Hence this note.

I have been on holiday so have not been able to attend to the cruise control problem in any concentrated way.

However yesterday I reconnected the 'loo chain' to the slot in the bracket where it had come adrift and took the car out on the motorway. After I engaged the cruise control it worked but would not engage and maintain a speed above 45 mph. Hm...so I gave it thought.

I took up the 'slack' in the chain one ball bearing and this solved the problem. The car now maintains any speed I decide to set.

Polish motorways are quite expensive (really) and the result is many are often deserted so the device is particularly useful.

So now I have a fully working cruise control. You probably have to experiment and see how many ball bearing adjustments you need to make until the cruise control performs as it should. I expect they all vary if the car remains original as mine does.

Thanks for all your advice and the interesting side issues this gave rise to.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 368
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 04 August, 2015 - 09:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A dab of red paint on the chain where it connects to the throttle will be handy should the chain become disconnected.

Please post your results of further adjustments because my one hunts 1mph. Its annoying.

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