| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2013 |
Hello Jetsetters, as you will recall I have not found anything wrong with the engine that came with this car apart from the upper part of the engine showing that oil changes had been overlooked by some past caring owner evidenced by the fact that there is a fair bit of sludge on the top part of the engine, in particular in the valley where the lifters are and especially on the outside of the brake pumps under the valley cover. Surprisingly when the sump was removed it was as clean as what you would expect an engine to be if it had done only 5000 miles. There are no ridges in the top of the cylinder bores and crosshatching is clearly visible on all bores. The only concern I had was that it appeared someone had decked the block on the passenger side with an airtool and made a mess of it. There was no leakage from the tell tale holes indicating that the liner seals are not leaking and there was very little gunk in the coolant passages. The brake pumps appear to be croaked because of rust ie remove the circlip and they just don't come apart. So it looks like new brake pumps are going to have to arrive. That aside with the heads off the engine turned freely by hand. So I had to devise a method by which to work out if the block was really damaged by the maniac with the air tool. So what I did is with the head gasket off I pushed the head back on after cleaning the block and head surfaces and lightly nipped the head nuts up, probably no more than 10 ft pound. Then I went all around the head with feeler gauges and found that only a .004 thou feeler will go in at one place that goes near one of the push rod holes. On the rest of this little crazy experiment, a .0015 thou feeler just wont go in anywhere. The entire engine shows zero sign of the oil ever mixing with the coolant. I estimate the cylinder head gasket thickness to be around 35 thou. So I am about to break every rule in Crewes book and put this thing back together with new gaskets, then do a cylinder head gasket leakage test and if it passes that its going back in the engine bay to see if it will fire. The way I see it is if I buy a fully reconditioned engine, what I am working on now is worthless anyway and as for some unknown reason I like to tinker with the thing the only thing I am going to waste is money on gaskets and a few other items like brake pumps. My whole plan is sinister but you see I have a Shadow I fetish. Its the chrome bumpers I think but if I can get the Camargue back on the road this way then I will have enough loot to perhaps save a Shadow from the wreckers and vandals. And as they say if you have a Camargue, you need a Shadow and if you have a Shadow you need a Corniche and if you have a Corniche then a Phantom is necessary. All comments, advices, abuses, pokes and jabs will be gratefully received. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 125 Registered: 2-2013 |
And there you have it. I have just put the other cylinder head back on without the gasket and I can't get a .0015 feeler gauge in anywhere around the head after its been slightly nipped up. So in short the only thing I can find wrong with the engine is that a .004 feeler gauge will go into the head on the passenger side around a pushrod hole. Now, given the head gaskets have a thickness of around .035, when the heads are correctly tensioned, I think there will be enough crush to seal the heads to the block. I may be wrong but I am open to a squabble what what. Interestingly I remember decades back talking to this English chap and he informed me with all the dedication of a hit man that RR/B are engineered to such close tolerances that no gaskets are used anywhere on the engine. Naturally, I put that in same basket as if you eat fruitcake at night you will get nightmares. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1549 Registered: 4-2003 |
"And as they say if you have a Camargue, you need a Shadow and if you have a Shadow you need a Corniche and if you have a Corniche then a Phantom is necessary. All comments, advices, abuses, pokes and jabs will be gratefully received." Vladimir Why waste time - go for the Corniche chromium bumper bar series first up especially a non-emission control UK delivery car with the 9:1 compression ratio and 2.25inch single exhaust. Fit the later forward discharge exhaust manifolds and dual exhaust system with the addition of a forward-mounted balance pipe, electronic distributor, Turbo R front anti-roll bar, best-available shock absorbers and tyres. You are now ready to give HSV and FPR drivers the shock of their lives if you drive the Corniche in a non-typical R-R driver fashion. I used to have a lot of fun with almost stock-standard UK-delivered 1973 manufactured DRH14434 taking on late 1990/early 2000 series FPV/HSV vehicles either in unexpected traffic light challenges or point-to-point highway driving. I would just position the Corniche behind them and not matter what they tried, all they would see in their rear view mirror was the classic grille sitting there just like the truck in the movie "Duel". The only time I would back off was when I didn't want to attract the attention of the police in known high-surveillance areas. However, I must admit keeping up with the more recent HSV/FPV models would be a real problem in appropriate circumstances. The only modification I made to DRH14434 was to do the B&M "street and strip" modification to the T400 transmission to eliminate the in-built slip in the R-R version of this transmission intended to give smooth gear changes at the expense of reduced clutch plate life. The rear wheels would break traction at each gear change under full throttle acceleration after this modification. I would stop at the Corniche level as I am an ageing rev-head who made the most of the time long ago when there were no absolute open road speed limits. Becoming a sedate senior driver is not in my future....... | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1234 Registered: 6-2009 |
HSV and FPV/R drivers? Translation/Elucidation, please? Brian, who's been a "sedate senior driver" pretty much always | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1550 Registered: 4-2003 |
Australia has two specialist high-performance car modification businesses allied with Ford and Holden [GM subsidiary]: HSV = Holden Special Vehicles http://www.hsv.com.au/Gen-F/home/au/ FPV = Ford Performance Vehicles http://www.fpv.com.au/ Unfortunately, FPV is about to be closed thanks to Ford's decision to cease manufacturing motor vehicles in Australia. HSV has stated it will continue to modify GM cars sold in Australia after Holden ceases car manufacturing in Australia as well following Ford. Thanks to our esteemed politicians and voodoo economics, we will no longer have a car manufacturing industry in Australia after 2017. David - who enjoys late-night spirited but sensible driving to the prevailing conditions on deserted country roads. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.211 |
shifting manually into second makes the old girls get up and go. The head. I would get a piece of plate glass and lap head down a bit taking off 4 thou is too,much for this method because the glass starts to hollow so initially lay wet or dry paper down and kerosene for lubricant. Also put a straight edge across the head both ways use a feeder at various points. Unfortunately a check like this is only as good as the straight edge used. So using micrometer blue, it's like grease paint, Paint the head with a fine smear then clamp to block. The block should show blue where it's touching. A local thespian may have some grease paint. The head gasket should be coated with a glue that sets under heat and pressure so any other sealant or grease will cause the glue not to glue to the aluminum. This glue is excellent stuff and gives a perfect seal. The position of the potential leak is to another oil space with oil in it. So if it's the only low spot then it should be ok. Whats the old head gasket like, a careful look can show If it was blown. Its possible to have engines without gaskets. But great care in design is required and often the joints end up unreliable in General service. I have removed head gaskets from bike engines as a get you home measure. The main problem is that engine crankcase move around due to heat and the stress of making power. Gaskets absorb the movement where as a non gasket precision joint tends to slide over each over and pump oil out. The sump pan is a good example a nice thick gasket the allows movement relative to the crankcase. That's why the bolts come loose. Notice the crankcase apron below the crank centre line greatly strengths the main Beg area of the crankcase. Which is also where the head studs screw into the crankcase. I hear lots of daft RR myths about how tight the tolerances are on RR engines, most engines are built to the same sort of tolerances. Running clearances maybe bigger for pistons but to mass produce engines the tolerances have to be tight otherwise some engines will seize and others would like nuts in a tin can and the odd engine might be a good one. Ford UK 1950s. Modern engines have even tighter tolerances. I have rebuilt quite a few engines using only brgs and rings and timing chain. And it certainly revives an old engine and often big lazy V8s last well. The smaller revy stuff generally goes another 25k before a proper rebuild is needed. so with luck this engine will go another 150k on a shoe string engine rebuild. The brg shells should be matt grey and no copper showing. Copper showing diagonally opposite and on opposite sides or a pair of big end shells can mean a con rod that is slightly bent. See my posting last year in miscellaneous oil pumps. This engine is easy to assemble. Set up timing gears as per workshop manual. Cam shaft and crankshaft endfloat important for smooth running. The two shafts moving along will move the ignition and cam timing around. The engine will get it's knickers in a twist and run rough, which further cause the shafts to move to and fro. Check all screw threads before the engine is assembled because moving a half built engine to the engineering shop can be awkward. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2013 |
Thanks for that excellent advice Bob. I will order some bearing blue immediately. I didn't take any of the bearing caps off when I had the sump off as it was so clean and it looks like this engine has not done many miles since the last rebuilt. I am assuming the last person who rebuilt it would have put new bearings in. Assumptions can be dicey but I am prepared for the risk. Thanks again. One thing that has me totally bewildered is why is their engine sludge in the valley and the top of heads yet the sump and bearing caps are clean as. What do you think Bob ? Have you ever seen such a thing? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 140 Registered: 2-2013 |
Jetsetters, I now have two questions. Sadly, when washing down the outside of the Camargue's engine block of grease grime roaddirt etc it became evident that there are stains flowing downwards from the tell tail holes. But cross hatching on the all the bores is clearly evident which tells me that the engine has not done many miles since the last engine rebuild. My question is - is there a crude method of testing for any leakage from those holes. I thought about taking the sump back off and applying 50 psi with a blower to a tell tail hole and oiling the bottom of the liner and the top of the liner to see if any bubbles appear. As some of you are aware this car arrived in Australia with the engine crudely reinstalled in the engine bay and the transmission much to my horror sitting on the front seat on thick cardboard. Next question. As I am washing down the outside of the engine there is nothing to be seen but bare aluminium. Before I put the engine back into car should I paint it and if so what colour would a Camargue engine be? The same as the SS2 and if so what colour was that ? What would be the disadvantage of not painting it. I like the look of aluminium bare. but...... | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.121.230 |
I believe theses crankcases are unpainted. The blue grey used on CAV alternators looks. Normal enamel paint will work fine on the crankcase. Cylinder heads get to hot, so best left bare. The timing cover black for contrast. Matt black first then satin or gloss as you like. Aerosols good for this.Also rover used a nice shade of grey on the V8 this paint is available from the Rover V8 guys. 50 psi in the weep holes is maybe too much try 20 psi and look for bubbles. I would suggest that the reason for the engine being half out is that the gearbox is faulty not the engine. I would be tempted to ignore the weep holes because of no oil in water. Tap a screw thread in the weep hole and fit screw. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 142 Registered: 2-2013 |
Interesting Bob but would you agree with me that if cross hatching is quite visible on each cylinder bore that the engine cannot have done many miles? I must be ambidextrous Bob because I can read in both capitals, lower case and a mixture of both. Indeed I can pass my sight down an entire line an understand it. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 193 Registered: 10-2008 |
Vladimir, I would think the mileage is low if the cross hatching is visible providing the bores have not been rehoned recently, possibly if the engine has been re ringed ? With regard to the weep holes, I would be tempted to just let them weep as they are designed to. Mark | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.53 |
I would suggest that the 50k miles is genuine and the engine is all original. Weep holes are weep holes as Mark pointed out. Meaning that a small amount of weepage is fine a Water stain that is dry is fine. The most likely stuff to leak is coolant because it's above the seals and under pressure. Providing the coolant and oil aren't mixing and the water not dripping out and hardly any topping up is needed then the seals are serviceable. Weep holes are found on many big diesels. And thinking a bit deeper. The weep hole chamber separates the water seal from the oil seal. If this chamber is sealed then any coolant is now on oil seal under pressure. This defeats the whole idea of weep holes and the weep chamber. My car doesn't use coolant and the weep holes that I have spotted are dry. So happy engine. Note that antifreeze when hot and exposed to atmosphere in a hot place such as the weep chamber quickly evaporates and leaves a gloop that aids sealing. It's not that good but every bit helps. The shelf life of antifreeze is very long 45gallon drum is cheapest plus one can sell in small quantities at a good profit. Unipart Green was about the best and on every car makers list. This was a good little money maker. Drum on forecourt drain engine coolant down the drain into the interceptors. Then put in neat antifreeze as per data. Then top off with water. In the autumn I would get 30 cars a week plus spin off Work. I used to go fast and work 12 hour days. Paid off my mortgage. My jeep uses water so each year it gets a litre of antifreeze. Which keeps it at a 1/3 strength Lowest temp in Bournemouth this year was minus 2. Plus my jeep is parked close to my house with the rear pointing to the prevailing wind. However because this car lives in a hot place the coolant used needs to firstly protect the bits. And second to cool better. Does it get cold at night. Google engine coolants Bob the oil guy. To explain in depth (Message approved by david_gore) |
