| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 92 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes indeedy, this morning in outback Australia I ripped up the bonnet/hood of my 76 Cadillac Fleetwood and measured the width of the 500ci block at 72 cm, then I slinked over to the Camargue which has its engine out and is presently being dismantled and considered for repair. I calculated that a 500ci engine with 600hp guaranteed for $8,000 will fit. I blasted off a query to a conversionist in Uncle Sams land of the the free with bullet holes as to whether some evilness could be put forth to come up with some system to get around the fact RR decided to run its hydraulic brake pumps off the camshaft. I had been driven nutty by the fact that there is a nice looking Arnage for sale through Flying Spares with blown valve train problems with only approximately 15K kilometres for sale at 13,500 quid. Yes, a 170mph brick, lovely looking car but failing to proceed. Now I am emailing Jay Leno in LA for details of who he used to make two rear wheels for an Oldsmobile out of billet Aluminium to make it look like it has hub caps/wheel covers. Bob has given me info on the drive shaft mods to handle extra power but says the chassis can probably only handle 400hp. Well jetsetters we will see about that and then I wonder would I have become this weird if I paid twice the price of a Rolls for the Camargue in 1977. Yes defineately. But if I am going to spend 30 grand on getting this rare car back on the road, then I want to know I have spend that 30 grand wisely and made this Camargue into what it should have been in the first place without the dribble from Crewes merry men of "adequate horsepower" giving me a nicotine patch nightmare. As I am never selling the car resale value means absolutely nothing to me. The ability to take off like a scalded cat does along with a certainty in the reliability scope of things. But I really wish it was black instead of white. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 355 Registered: 5-2009 |
I don't see why a small hydraulic pump, either electrically or engine driven, would fail to pressurize the brake system, assuming it were capable of generating the correct pressure and had an appropriate plumbing. After all, aircraft use all sorts of high-pressure hydraulics with various pumps, etc. If the pump stops pumping, it's no different from the engine stalling, and you have good accumulators and the red warning lamps. You could also use two pumps for two completely separate systems, just like original. I don't know why the Rolls-Royce engine should be unreliable, IF it (A) is not 40 years old without significant professional attention; (b) is properly rebuilt and maintained; (C) is not neglected, overheated, or abused as so many obviously were. With enough money anything can be made into anything. One of the new GM aluminum V-8 engines can really do it, and without modifications, right out of the crate, plus the weight would be comparable to the Rolls-Royce engine. There's a very nice 6.0 liter, for example... | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 98 Registered: 2-2013 |
Yes Randy, you are right on the money there. Indeed I have already found out that the citroen belt driven pumps will do it. But it has to be reliable. Here, we don't have crocodiles but we have cowboys, hundreds of them and when they get drunk they are much crazy. I have seen so many cars along my lonely road to the nearest place I can buy milk at 127 kilometres away, yes many cars burnt and bullet holed. These cowboys take madness to next level. Their motto is if it moves shoot it and if it doesn't move shoot it anyway. So this is why I am seriously considering the 500ci Cadillac engine from Cad Company in New Mexico rather than attempting to repair the Rolls engine that is blown. It must be carburetted not fuel injected. Injection has far too many little wizz bang sensors, computer etc that can die at the wrong time in the wrong place. On one of my cars, the Cow Killer/Kangaroo Smasher Falcon Panel Van I carry extra battery, fuel pump, coil, distributor, starter motor, alternator, belts, hoses basically everything so that unless the engine explodes and I have not been able to kill it yet regardless of the serious over reving I have subjected it to with massive overloading, I can fix it there and then and keep going. But I am going to be sneaky Randy, if the Cadillac engine goes in I will have billet aluminium rocker covers made with Rolls Royce stamped on them just to attempt to fool all members of the Brisbane RR/B fraternity, yes I will blast this Camargue down the highway flat out with the stereo cranked to the max hopefully at 4 miles to the gallon with a rubber version of Toad of Toad Hall sticking out of my top pocket, a tweed cap, a Hugh Hefner smoking pipe and an 80,000 volt cattle prod to keep the unwashed away from the 24 carat gold Spirit of Ecstacy. It must be done! | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 623 Registered: 5-2012 |
Vladimir Why don't you just rip out the rat trap and hydraulics and fit a standard brake master cylinder and servo unit. It would be much easier and cheaper. I should add I don't really understand why you don't just buy a second, high performance car and keep the Carmargue as it is. This is not a criticism, just a personal preference - each to his own. Regards Geoff | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 226 Registered: 8-2012 |
"Why don't you just rip out the rat trap and hydraulics and fit a standard brake master cylinder and servo unit. It would be much easier and cheaper." ....And much more reliable and easier and cheaper to maintain as well. Of course there is the self-levelling suspension to consider, but the removal of this system also has its advantages.  I have often wondered whether anybody has replaced the braking hydraulics with a conventional system, and what would be the best donor vehicle to obtain the parts. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1529 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bob, The major problem would be finding a place to install the brake booster/master cylinder where the pedal linkages can be linked. I doubt if it could replace the "rat trap" without adversely affecting ground clearance and I cannot think of another location where it could be located. In NSW, you would have to get an Engineer's Report and RMS approval on any changes to the braking system and you can be certain this would be a time-consuming, frustrating and expensive process. I do not know whether Queensland has the same requirements but as Australian Design Rules compliance is involved, I suspect the same requirement would apply. As far as the self-levelling is concerned, it may be possible to install a hydraulic flow divider and intensifier upstream of the power steering pump to pressurise the accumulators to feed the self-levelling system. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 624 Registered: 5-2012 |
The servo could be located in the boot(trunk) using a master/slave cylinder arrangement to activate the servo. I suspect David is right, there would not be enough ground clearance to mount the servo at the rat trap location. It would be dangerously exposed at the least. Geoff. | ||
| Kelly Opfar Experienced User Username: kelly_opfar Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2004 |
And then there are these guys... http://www.hotrodparts.com/rollsbentleyparts/ | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2009 |
Look at that complete fabricated frame. It looks heavy but I bet it's there when the going gets rough. I would enjoy comparing the ride to the original car, to feel if it is noticeably more stiff (the frame, not the ride). Also sounds like they have the brake system figured out. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 227 Registered: 8-2012 |
Interesting web site which I haven't seen before. I thought it might be possible to put a vacuum servo in the place of the original hydraulic tanks (and good riddance to those). I don't know, I've never tried. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 626 Registered: 5-2012 |
I once measured the space occupied by the brake fluid reservoir and found there would not be enough room to fit a servo unit. I was however looking at the 9" servo. Maybe a 7" would fit. The other problem in utilizing this space is the pedals hinge from the floor upwards, rather than from the bulkhead downwards, which means the bulkhead would probably need to be reinforced if a master cylinder/servo was going to be fitted there. It is possible to buy remote servos/boosters, so all that would be required would be to fit a master cylinder in the rat-trap location. The servo could then be mounted anywhere on the car where there is space. http://www.mpbrakes.com/techtalk/boosters/remote-mounted-brake-boosters-vacuum-booster-solutions-for-cramped-engine-compartments Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 357 Registered: 5-2009 |
It is possible to remote-mount the booster. The single outlet master cylinder attached to the pedal actuates another which is mated to the vacuum booster which is mounted in a more convenient place. Sort of like a hydraulic clutch. Often seen on 1 1/2 ton trucks, school bus chassis, etc. in the USA at least. At least that's how I think it is set up. Another option is the old Bendix Hydro-Boost system from the 1970s. It was a much smaller device, used hydraulic power from the power steering pump, was used on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, and Lincoln Town cars. I think it was Bendix. There are compact vacuum boosters offered for hot rod/street rod construction, which I think would likely fit in placeof the rat trap. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3173 Registered: 4-2003 |
Maybe things are different in the Wild West, but in the Eastern states you can forget any hope of gaining a roadworthiness approval for doctored brakes. And Vladimir, the Camargue was so outrageously expensive that it makes today's Phantom look cheap. Spending $30k to put the motor right is not that bad really. Sure, the Camargue was always considered a little gutless, and that is why a certain Mr Packer had his turbocharged. The successor to the Camargue, the Continental R, has it all of course. As for an engine transplant, go for it if you wish. I know of a Ferarri with a Subaru WRX engine. End cost was awful and the car worthless. Why not just have a fibreglass replica Camargue body made to pattern in Laos and fit it to a stripped Cadillac if you hate the incredible Rolls-Royce V8? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2013 |
Thanks for all the comments chaps. Richard, as for roadworthness approval up here where I am, there is no need for it. You simply turn up at the traffic office, the girl reads the engine/vin number and gives you the number plates. No NSW type of get your car checked out every 12 months or else turn in the plates. A Ferrari with a Subaru WRX engine - now that is just plain sick and twisted. A fibreglass Camargue body made to pattern in Laos -- hmm, nobody can ever say you don't have a sense of humour Richard. But I think in the end, I am just going to have to keep the damn thing original. There is something about modifying something like a Camargue that even I don't feel comfortable with. Mind you, had I paid the going price for a new Camargue in 1977 and found out just what I was getting for my money, it would have been the first and last RR/B I ever bought. If it wasn't a blatant rip off, together with English toff nose ultra snobby what what together with questionable media propaganda dribble then I don't know what is. "Adequate horsepower" what cane toad excretement balderdash. So there it sits, the Camargue engine with its heads off and its studs sticking out looking like a demented porcupine on acid. My wallet shakes every time I walk near the thing. Can anybody tell me about the Arnage T. Like does it have a plastic body like the Asian disposable transport that plague our eyesights and every street in Australia? What I would like to know is, did RR/B finally get their act together and build a good engine with a fall apart as you go body, or are they the real thing. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1193 Registered: 6-2009 |
Vladimir, It sounds like the attitude of the authorities toward antique cars in your neck of the woods is the same as it is in mine. Antique cars are not subject to any safety inspection. They also get a lifetime license plate and registration from the Department of Motor Vehicles. There is no "sniffing around" to see if a car has been modified from what came from the factory. Many have and many have not. It's presumed that most owners of antique vehicles have a strong interest in keeping them roadworthy (if they're actually driving them, as opposed to storing them) whether they are kept as original or have significant modifications "under the skin," and that presumption is consistently borne out in practice. I don't know what it is that many have against plastic and/or fiberglass when used strategically and appropriately. The cars I grew up with in the 1960s and 1970s, virtually solid metal from stem to stern, routinely rusted out after a very few short years in the snow belt where I lived. With the advent of plastics, particularly the use of same in wheel wells, body life went up astronomically. I never thought there'd be a day when the youngest vehicle in the household fleet would be 8 years old, followed by 19 years old, and with a daily driver that's 26 years old and still looking (and functioning) great. There have been radical improvements in automotive lifespan with the introduction of "those awful space age materials" instead of "good, old-fashioned metal." (That doesn't mean that one cannot produce trash using all high-tech materials, of course). Brian | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2013 |
Brian its like this: my hate of plastic is to do with the fact that the cars of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s up to 1976 were IMHO cars that in the right climate were made to last. These were the golden years, the music was better, the women looked like ladies, children respected their parents and it was a more innocent time. Admittedly, I am a dinosaur. I remember as an apprentice mechanic I noticed in 1968 our Holden cars had introduced plastic grills and I remember being horrified by this, but not in my wildest dreams/nightmares had I realized just how low car manufacturers would stoop. Plastic and more plastic. I have a 1990 Holden Commodore with a V6 Buick engine in it. This car is a complete and utter piece of garbage. Virtually all the interior is plastic and its falling apart. It has plastic bumper bars, again, total trash, falling apart. I was going to just pour petrol/gas over it and light it in my front yard as a form of non violent protest, but then one of the local cowboys has offered me a grand for it. It is a 135mph car but if you run into something it will fly apart just like our Prime Minister's mind. So no plastic is not for me, I simply hate it, its appearance and especially its smell. I say our society would be better off going back to the good old days, like when your kiddies gave you rudeness you just back handed them sending them flying through the air and then they tended to have a second thought about being obnoxious pests. I suppose I liked the chrome. Defineately, I have always thought the Shadow I Rolls had a much classier look than the plastic bumpered Shadow II and the Clouds all of them out classed all the plastic things that followed. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 629 Registered: 5-2012 |
My pet hate regards plastics are when the material is used in engines. There are many examples of problems caused by this but the worst I have come across was the 1998-2002 Jaguar XK8 engine. The timing chain tensioner was made of plastic. This would inevitably fail, generally just out of warranty, causing the timing chain to jump a cog and send the valves straight through the top of the pistons. Brilliant. I believe Jaguar did a recall. Geoff. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1194 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, As the former owner of a 1999 Jaguar XJ8L with the AJ-V8 with the Nikasil liners and the "high tech" plastic timing chain tensioners and water pump impeller I can guarantee you that Jaguar did not issue any recalls related to this issue. There were some very quiet engine replacements and the like early on for the few that failed while within the warranty period, but since most were failing afterward it was a "no skin off my nose" situation as far as Jaguar was concerned [which is a shame and almost criminal in and of itself]. I was lucky enough to have learned of this ticking time bomb and had the work done to replace these before I ended up with a very elegant and oversized paperweight. What's even more perverse is that there were three generations of those tensioners and both generations one and two had failure issues that should never have occurred. My complaint is not with the use of plastic, per se, but with the lack of adequate testing of same before the decision was made to actually use the stuff in production. This should have shown itself as the disaster in the making that it was if they had exercised due diligence in pre-production stress testing. My much loved Jag is now owned by a very good friend of mine and she and her husband have been loving every minute of it! I loved that car, but my feelings toward Jaguar as a company are not nearly so warm. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 631 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian I stand corrected. I just assumed with such a major design deficiency, easily capable of destroying a $9000 engine, they would have done the decent thing and done the recall. A friend of mine had to have a plastic inlet manifold replaced on his landrover which left him with a $1000 bill. Inlet manifold!!! how often do aluminum ones fail - practically never. Also, the only engine part I have needed to replace on my Ford Explorer, with the exception of serviceable items, is the plastic thermostat housing which started weeping coolant along the join in the casting. Hence my distrust of plastic engine parts. Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 358 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi, you are right about plastics: a friend has a busy auto shop and he has a small hill of junk plastic intake manifolds mostly from Ford V-8 engines, but some GM, Chrysler, and imports as well. With even fairly expensive cars now, seems like the extra money buys styling and prestige, more than quality. Until the 1970s I remember American cars had metal grills and the chrome parts were metal; now all plastic. I can still hear the metal grille of my Dad's Buick Electra ring when I ran the brush across it during a wash. At least there was something you could fix when necessary. My Mercedes 420SEL has the aluminum cylinder bores, which I will say that engine has held up well for more than 165,000 miles so far. It also is known for one of the plastic cam chain guides on the driver's side breaking and feeding into the cam sprocket, wrecking the engine. I changed mine a few years ago, just in case, and they were not broken, but how did I know that until I looked? I hate a 2p plastic part which causes a $1500 labor bill, as in the climate control system, when for a cent or two more, the part could be made not to break. Many cars' cam chain guides are purposely placed on the outside of the chain so if they break the sprocket doesn't try to eat them. Then again, there are some cars now with the water pump behind the cam chain and covers. What a mess to change. When car magazines test a new car, I wish they would point out unusually expensive parts, and design features which could cause expensive repairs. I picked up a mag in Finland once that did just that. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1195 Registered: 6-2009 |
I can't, and won't, argue that plastics (or at least most of them) and long term exposure to heat simply don't mix. I can't imagine affixing any plastic piece against hot metal and expecting it to hold up. What's interesting is that some of the ancient plastics, e.g. bakelite, handled this reasonably well. I just don't think that plastic itself is something that should be decried because it is plastic. The plastic parts of many car bodies (of which there are several on my '89 Cadillac and were several on my '99 Jag) will probably be standing proud in a scrap yard 300 years from now long after all the metal components on the cars have returned to the dust whence they came. (That this poses and environmental mess is a separate issue. One which seems to be being addressed with plastic formulations that are subject to long-term biodegrading.) Brian, who's seen one too many bumpers that are nothing but their chrome, if that, to get too nostalgic about "real iron" | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2013 |
Well chaps I thought Jaguar screwed the pooch with the plastic timing chain adjuster on the XJS V12. It was a hideous piece of work and the workshop manual was a beauty. It went something like this, remove gearbox, remove engine,remove timing cover, replace useless piece of plastic for timing chain tensioner. However, if you were smart enough to get onto the internet you could find Kirbys book which pointed out that you could actually get the timing cover off with the engine still in the car. On top of that Jaguar made most of the XJS Jaguars with a turbo 400 box so as a replacement for the etype the XJS Jaguar was a quick a Queensland slug crawling through aralite setting. What is it about the top brass in companies like Jaguar that they completely loose the plot, create a car that should really fly but when its released it turns out to be a would be if it could be. The 420G Jaguar which they put up as a challenge to the Cloud was faster with far better handling and was at a fraction of the price of the Cloud a complete bargain, but it was poised to take on the American market with three options, power steering, air conditioning and electric windows tops. Against most cars coming out of Detroit with piles of extras like automatic head lights and electric seats etc it was doomed to instant failure and that's exactly what happened. Most mark X and 420G Jags that went to the USA have disappeared into the wreckers yard so Coventry got it totally wrong. Were the English sipping on too much tea in the morning or didn't they bother to do their research at all? And just have a look at those later model Jags, the ones pretending to look like mark 2 Jaguars, how hideous looking they were, it forced one to conclude that the scotch bottle in the design department was permanently open. Jaguar should have kept making etypes but sadly they didn't. They replaced that iconic car with the XJS with a plastic totally unreliable timing chain tensioner together with a gearbox that was not right for the car and interior of the early XJS Jaguars was so ugly its as if Jaguar had copied it from a Russian Lada. |
