Post Number: 319
|Posted on Thursday, 23 October, 2014 - 10:54 am: |
I found a web site which is offering "Morris DOT4" as a replacement for "extinct" RR363, claiming it is "completely compatible" and that they have sold it for several years with no problems reported.
Right now I haven't an extra drop of RR363 and I am waiting to see if I can get some more before I complete bleeding my calipers. Any new information about the availability of RR363?
Post Number: 1087
|Posted on Thursday, 23 October, 2014 - 11:43 am: |
I presume you're referring to the brake fluid webpage at MotorcarsLtd.com, which has been making the claim that RR363 is no longer produced for several years now (and falsely, I might add). I have no idea what makes them think that Morris DOT4 brake fluid is somehow significantly different from any other fluid that meets the DOT4 spec.
The last I heard is that the next batch of RR363 will be released during the 4th quarter of this year.
If you are going to use something else I'd be far more inclined to go with YAK363/OMAR363 whether the base is DOT3 or DOT4 rather than straight DOT3 or DOT4.
The e-mail address for technical inquiries and support at Castrol is AutoTechEnquiries@bp.com. They should be able to give you the latest ETA on the next batch of RR363.
Brian, who's "gone over to the dark side" of YAK363 because I've had it with RR363 pricing and supply problems
Post Number: 176
|Posted on Thursday, 23 October, 2014 - 06:06 pm: |
I can confirm what Brian says.
My usual supplier says that it will be available again somewhere in December 2014.
Because of the patchy availability I ususally order a whole case (12 liter), so I always have some in stock.
Post Number: 182
|Posted on Thursday, 23 October, 2014 - 07:06 pm: |
Here is Flying Spares take on the matter:
Post Number: 688
|Posted on Thursday, 23 October, 2014 - 09:53 pm: |
Without delving into the chemistry of hydraulic fluids; my understanding of the RR363 controversy is the improved lubrication qualities of the 'real deal' Vs the alternatives. With the pumps operating on an interference fit basis, any loss of lubricity could result in accelerated wear of the pump internals. It's the 10% castor oil in YAK363 that's alleged to overcome this, although those in the know claim that the oil should be 'ethoxylated, propoxylated' (?apologies for spelling?) as the edible stuff isn't as stable at higher temperatures/pressures.
There is another factor to take into consideration: At higher %ages (20 or so) there can be a tendency for the castor oil to 'clump' if presented with regular severe sub-zero conditions along with showing a cloudiness over time. Over a limited range of temperatures a 10% mix appears to exhibit the same viscosity curve as RR363, but TTBOMK nobody has yet checked the full range that early RR/B hydraulic fluids have to cope with.
Post Number: 1089
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 01:19 am: |
All the research into ethoxylated-propoxylated castor oil I could do indicated that the main purpose was long (and I mean very long) term storage stability. You can find a lot of information via web searches on "CAS 72986-44-8". This stuff is also used in many cosmetics.
"Regular" castor oil is very commonly used in the fuel-oil mixture for model airplanes and those engines run at temperatures and revs far in excess of anything our hydraulic systems ever see.
My original "shelf sample" of YAK363 has remained clear and has no signs of separation or cloudiness after about six years of storage at outdoor ambient temperatures that went below zero degrees F on multiple occasions.
So far the "on car" performance has been completely similar to the shelf sample.
I will note that this post is not meant as an encouragement to others to experiment unless they've done their homework and feel comfortable doing so based upon where they live. If it's not legal for you to try YAK363 then absolutely don't do it. It is a report of my ongoing experience with YAK363.
Post Number: 320
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 02:31 am: |
Thanks, everyone. I am not in a bind (over my car's binders...)so I will wait.
Meantime: I would say one could top up with DOT 3 temporarily. The only negative effect I see is a dilution of the lubricant in the overall mix. otherwise it is the same as the Desired Elixer.
Post Number: 517
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 02:44 am: |
Would you mind publishing the name and supplier of the Castor Oil you use (and have tested). If I have difficulty in finding RR363 I may well join you on the Dark Side. I am swayed by your extensive testing of YAK363 and by Omar's use of OMAR363 over the years.
Post Number: 1090
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 03:32 am: |
I have simply been buying the 6-oz bottle of castor oil that's on the shelf of my local Wal-Mart pharmacy when I go in to get DOT3 brake fluid.
For the last two years or so that's been Humco brand, but there are others. I've only ever used pharmaceutical grade castor oil.
One 6-oz bottle is enough to create two 35-oz bottles of YAK363. I've used several different brands of DOT3 over the years as well. The shelf experiment was done with Wal-Mart's SuperTech house brand. One car has YAK363 with this as the base and the other with Prestone DOT3 as the base.
Larger size bottles of pharmaceutical grade castor oil are available at Walmart.com and elsewhere. I've never bothered searching for "industrial regular" castor oil and the EP variety is not available in quantities that your typical DIY mechanic would want to purchase or store.
Omar M. Shams
Post Number: 434
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 03:33 am: |
Two of my cars have been running on the OMAR363 mixture for some 6 years now. The cars feel as good as any other Shadow/Wraith II I have driven. In that time, I have done usual interventions (like change hoses, overhaul HCV, replace diaphragms on accumulators etc). The cars seems fine. None of the components removed have shown any signs of corrosion or for that matter anything that is not ordinary.
The cars are operated in Dubai where our weather is hot and humid. I rarley drive the cars when it rains as I always have better cars for these conditions. The temperatures we see in Dubai range from 7 Deg C to 52 Deg C. I stop using the cars when the temperatures reach 44 Deg C as it is only asking for trouble with these old girls. I have other cars for hot summer use.
The Castor oil I use is the same stuff we use on machinery that rely on lubrication which has to tolerate light hydrocarbons washing away any other lubricating oil. This is a common problem in the oil industry (where I work). The make and spec of the castor oil has been difficult for me to astablish. I have tried asking many times - all I get is "it is castor oil mate - do you want some or dont you?"
I mix ordinary brake fluid (often Caltex stuff) with anything from 15 to 19% castor oil. The stuff mixes really well and quickly.
OMAR363 starts life as a golden coloured fluid and then with age starts to go brown.
I have never had the same oil in the car for any more than 2 years - not by design, but by necessity. Interventions into the hydraulic system gives me an opportunity to flush old oil out and put new fresh oil. I prefer seeing gold in the sightglass to bronze. And best of all - It is cheap.
Post Number: 518
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 06:08 am: |
Brian and Omar
Many thanks for the info.
52 Deg C. Wow. When I lived in Las Vegas I experienced an unusual high of 47. Over 50 - thats hot. Vegas heat is very dry, so even 40+C is manageable. When it gets to 50+C in Dubai, if it is still humid, I cannot imagine what that's like.
Posted From: 22.214.171.124
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 07:00 am: |
Dot 4 was formulated with abs pumps in mind. Many years ago I was told by a RR expert that Dot 4 is ok to use.
I have suspected for a long time that it's not the pumps but the rams that need RR363.
Both dot 3 and 4 are lubricants.
Neither Morris or Castrol dot 4 are any different from other dot 4. Both of the prices $30 for Morris and £9 for Castrol are on the high side.
I originally ran my car on dot4.
I had a pump jam in the up position after not running the engine for months while away on business.
This was quickly fixed by freeing off the pump and the dot changed to RR363. The pump is still fitted to the car and is fine.
I put the pump jam up down to dot4. However now I am not so sure. At the time I changed to RR363 I mentioned it to the RR expert and he said that he doubted that dot4 caused the jam.
Incidently interference fit means press fit because the fitting surfaces are interfering with each other.
The word for the fit of the pump plunger is transition fit.
(Message approved by david_gore)
Omar M. Shams
Post Number: 435
|Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 05:11 pm: |
I was in Vegas a few months ago and found it funny that you have the same hot weather as we do but without the humidity. Our humidity can go up to 90+% which is very uncomfortable. 52 Deg C is not normal, but we get those temperatures a few times every year.
I needed to discuss the climatic conditions so you can undersatnd that even when the car is off the road for the hot summers, the oil is still sitting in the reservoir at these conditions. My cars are not garaged. They sit outside (under a car cover in the summer).
Posted From: 126.96.36.199
|Posted on Saturday, 25 October, 2014 - 09:21 am: |
I start melting at 30c. I don't like hot weather and like 25c. I don't like it below 10c. Which is fortunate for me because the average where I live is 15c.Dorset UK.
It appears that RR363 has 8% castor oil. My jar of dot 4 and castor oil looks fine and nothing's dropped out.
In very hot places 15% is probably ok however the viscosity maybe a bit much for chilly willys like the UK.
It makes me think of giving each reservoir a spoonful of castor oil to make the system feel better.
World War 1 fighter planes used castor oil for the propeller thingy which misted back towards the pilots who got trots from the castor oil.
(Message approved by david_gore)