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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1078
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 10:24:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello All,

Back in May 2013, in a thread entitled, Sticky Starter, Gordon Le Feuvre wrote: An often overlooked part when attending to engine leaks is the crankcase breather that runs from the side of engine oil filler to intake. This has a multi (6 or7) gauze disc flame trap that over the years jus gets blocked with crank oil/sludge. It is a bit of a wiggle to unbolt ( and I think was only listed to be cleaned on 24,000/"C" service, so was not attended to very often, but it is very important to be clean to allow crankcase pressure to dissipate into the carb intake and not out through gaskets/throwers etc,

At the time I thought, I need to attend to that, now (and should have), but as so often happens something interrupted the work flow and it remained untouched. I decided to attend to this yesterday, and thought I'd post photos to illustrate how true his words are. Here are two photos taken "through" the flame trap before I popped it out of its housing for a good soak in gasoline/petrol:

Flame Trap Side One

Flame Trap Side Two

Even after a day of soaking and cleaning with both a toothbrush then gentle "push through" with a fine wire brush it's still not as clean as I'd like it, so it's still soaking. From what I can find in the documentation these are made of three layers of wire mesh that appear to be fairly closely stacked together within the containment that surrounds all three mesh discs.

I imagine that virtually no air has been moving through this thing since I've owned the car. I will be curious to see if getting this thing cleared out might ease the valve cover leak that I still had after having the silicone gaskets installed in 2006.

It would probably take a shovel to ever clog the holes in the adapter that's attached to the choke housing, though that was dirty from years of oil mist making it through as well.

On my car, once the two bolts that hold each end were removed, there was a minimum of fidgeting to get the pipe and both end fittings removed. Each end fitting will pop off its respective end of the pipe, and doing so makes it a bit easier to slide the thing out from under all the bits that are above it.

It's rather remarkable that the rubber seals used in this application are still entirely supple after all these years.

Brian
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1287
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 14:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Try intake / carburettor cleaner and leave it to soak.

It's available in aerosols and is a much stronger solvent than petrol etc.

TFR (traffic film remover) used neat is also good for baked oil deposits. Soak again.
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.77
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 11:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

To clean clogged metal wire meshes heat them up to 200c and the gloop will turn to ash.

If it comes apart that is and the rubber seals are removed.

Boil it in strong soapy water.

Gloop attracts more gloop so getting the screens very clean is the way to go.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jeff Young
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Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 202
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 19:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

I used carb cleaner on mine, and they came clean quite quickly.

They weren't nearly as dirty as yours, though, so YMMV.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 224
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 22:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I did mine a couple of years ago I bought replacements from Flying Spares what they sent me was a couple of brillo pad like discs that seemed to work better than the disc thingy.

Richard.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3104
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 22:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

To clean clogged metal wire meshes heat them up to 200c and the gloop will turn to ash.



Quite right. I wonder how many times the wheel has to be reinvented before the penny drops. Just use a simple hand-held butane torch, heat the mesh until it just glows a dull red, and it is all done in less than a minute. If you haven't been doing this every twelve months then you are well past your use-by date.

Next we will have a thread on whether oil filters ever need changing and a multilogue on how it is done,

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3105
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 22:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

couple of brillo pad like discs that seemed to work better than the disc thingy




Ha ha. Nice joke.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1080
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 23:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Divergence from the sacred text that specifies the use of a petrol soaking (the one true way) as the cleaning technique?!!!!!! The heavens shall fall!!

There are lots of people who've never done this job before, so knowing the variety of techniques one could use to do it is valuable information. Much like most other undertakings, where there are multiple ways to achieve the desired result.

Brian, who'll wait on the torch, carb cleaner, etc., until I return from a weekend trip (and the flame trap has soaked for a few more days)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3108
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 17 October, 2014 - 23:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sure, lots of people may be doing this job for the first time. Of course, the flame trap will have been done at the last annual service in any case whether or not the vehicle is a recent purchase or the owner has just undertaken its maintenance.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1081
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 00:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Er, no.

But don't let that get in the way of a pet opinion.

Even ignoring this thread, from all available evidence here and elsewhere the flame trap is more often neglected than serviced. Not that this is a good thing, but it's reality.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1288
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 04:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

chances are that if your car has been serviced by a main agent or by a not specialist garage lots of small, time consuming, but important jobs have not been done.


soaking is usually fine, I wouldn't use a blow torch on the copper.


later type flame trap filters are a stainless steel brillo type material much like the Shadow rear sub frame mountings.

I don't think there would be much difference in use though.


As well as trapping flames and letting pressure from the bank case escape, another important function is to allow condensed water be boiled off from the engine oil. The cork filler cap gasket is a great indicator of water content in the oil. Apart from actual water droplets condensing on it, high water content will coupe the seal to expand and instead of being flat it will bow outwards into a kind of similar donut shape.


Oil must be changed at least annually regardless of miles covered. Low mileage cars are usually worse because they do not get used enough to boil off the water and grey sludge and blown oil filter elements are the result . . not to great for the engine as you can imagine.
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 08:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard. (Ha Ha nice joke) When I joined this forum I did so to gain information on how to look after my vehicle!!! The brillo material was sent to me by flying spares as a replacement for the original copper one that some bright spark had punched a hole in, If you don't think its up to the task Belittle them and not me.

Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 505
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 12:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It also appears, from what Paul says, the FS replacement is a faithful copy of the original OEM part (and may in fact be OEM).

Geoff
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Chris Browne
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Username: chrisb

Post Number: 160
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 19:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Richard George and Geoff,
It is listed as UE70094 which, unless I am mistaken, is indeed an OEM replacement for the mesh.


Kind regards,
Chris
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richard george yeaman
Prolific User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 228
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 20:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff and Chris as far as I remember the parts I received were quite expensive for what were I was expecting the copper discs instead of these, My copper discs were welded into its seating and had several holes punched in it. The new ones are very easy to remove and clean or replace.

Richard.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3109
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 18 October, 2014 - 20:43:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

UE70094 is a completely different animal from that of a Silver Shadow SY SY2 which has an assembly of woven gauzes part number UE33742. UE70094 is a cooking pan cleaner derivative intended for a 20,000-series SZ - which has a far more powerful crankcase ventilation system - but with FS anything goes.
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.80
Posted on Sunday, 19 October, 2014 - 06:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The mesh is meant to soak up a back fire flame and allow fumes to flow easily. So Stainless wire wool stuffed in a hole works. Which is how most flame traps are made.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 23 October, 2014 - 08:40:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Now that I'm back from a trip this past weekend, I finished off the job of cleaning the flame trap and reinstalling it and the associated hardware.

The extended soak in petrol did clear out more gunk. Since I have a torch and know how to heat mesh without melting it I decided to do that as well to get the outermost edge completely cleaned.

Here are several "after" photos for contrast with the "before"s from the initial post. The before pictures were taken on a sunny day and today was quite overcast, so the difference would be even more striking were the lighting conditions the same:

flame trap in housing
flame trap out of housing
flame trap cleaned surface

Brian
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Jeff Young
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Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 203
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 24 October, 2014 - 19:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Should do the trick.

Thanks for posting a conclusion.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Chris Miller
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Username: cjm51213

Post Number: 264
Registered: 5-2013
Posted on Monday, 03 November, 2014 - 02:31:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I used acetone and it took only a few hours, so I can recommend it.

I had six wafers. Is this normal?

Chris.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1096
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 03 November, 2014 - 02:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris,

Mine certainly didn't have six discs, and I have no idea how one would remove any. As best I could tell it had two or three. However, see the quoted material at the start of this thread from Gordon Le Feuvre, where he mentions "six or seven." What was there certainly did its job in capturing detritus.

My guess is that this is one of those items that changed over time. I'll have to eventually remove the one from LRK37110 to compare it to what came out of SRH33576.

I'm still in monitoring mode, but I believe this clean-up has resolved a valve cover oil leak that persisted even after I had the original gaskets replaced with the new silicone variety. I think there was just enough pressure that had nowhere else to go that was pushing oil out through the one tiny spot on the left side valve cover where the seal must not be absolutely perfect. This is the side where the oil filler tube resides and where this pressure release occurs. I never had any leakage at all from the right valve cover gasket.

The car also seems to have a different idle quality now, but it's hard to qualify other than to say it's different.

Brian
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jean-pierre hilbert
New User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Monday, 03 November, 2014 - 08:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, after I cleaned both flame traps, I had strictly no more oil leaks from the oil pan seal, because the crankcase was no longer under pressure, so I strongly believe your valve cover leaks are history too! Are you running on synthetic oil?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1097
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 03 November, 2014 - 09:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean-Pierre,

No, I am not using synthetic oil in my SY cars (or, at this point, any of my cars - my now sold 1999 Jaguar XJ8L was the last one in which I used synthetic oil).

When you say "both flame traps" where is the second? Although I cleaned the flame trap, the tube between it and the carb air trunk, and the fixture that attaches the tube to the trunk, I only know of that one flame trap. If there's another to check I need to do that.

Brian
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Chris Miller
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Username: cjm51213

Post Number: 265
Registered: 5-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 04 November, 2014 - 02:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

> so I strongly believe your valve cover leaks are history too!

I wasn't aware that crankcase pressure could cause valve cover leaks! Now that I think about it, I guess it should. If this is true, then it inadvertently fixes a problem that I have been procrastinating for a very long time. Stay tuned...

Chris.
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jean-pierre hilbert
New User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Sunday, 09 November, 2014 - 22:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,
Apologies for the delayed response! My car is a fuel-injected and may be different to your carburetted one; yes, there are 2 of those flame traps , one for A-bank and one for B.
Please look at the pics attached (disregard the text)






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Bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.122.90
Posted on Monday, 10 November, 2014 - 12:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In the UK it is legal to vent old cars to atmosphere. Which makes the flame trap redundant.

Because the shadow 1 has scroll seals it can't develop negative crankcase pressure to a worthwhile vacuum if any at all.

The breather pipe is connected between the air filter and the carbs where there is more airflow than actual vacuum.

The air moving into the engine goes across the breather and sucks on the breather. At idle there is no suck. At speed There is suck.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 232
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 10:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob first we make sure that we have a nice new air filter and that there is no leaks in the trunking going to the carburettors which one has cleaned until they shine inside and out then we introduce between this filtered air and shiny carburettor this sticky oily air to gum the whole thing up is that what you are saying.

Richard.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1100
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 12:06:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Even if Bob hadn't said that, my observation during the cleaning process shows "that's the way it is."

This was another of those things that I couldn't really figure out, as it makes little to no sense to me. This is on a car that's virtually devoid of any emissions control equipment.

Brian

P.S. to Jean-Pierre: In poking about I can find nothing on the B-bank at all as far as a flame trap goes. The oil leak on the left valve cover has not stopped entirely, but is very, very greatly reduced.
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 184
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 16:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One of the first jobs to do when tuning-up an old car was to remove the crankcase breather system. Mixing waste gases with the incoming air reduces the oxygen content, as well as fouling up the carburettor internals.

Instead of pumping the waste gases back into the engine (which is a daft idea anyway) the piping to the inlet manifold is removed and a simple flame trap vents the gases straight to atmosphere.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1309
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 19:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Crankcase gas recirculation.
Exhaust gas recirculation.
Air pumps.
Have all been brought in along with lots of other devices.

Will smog controls on a few RR&B's make a difference? I doubt it, but try passing a law that excludes some manufacturemanufacturers... not going to happen.

But imagine ALL those cars without emission controls?

negative crankcase pressure is a must really (leak wise) and the fact that scroll seals etc don't allow much of a 'vacuum' just means the oil is being sucked back into the engine as well as being screwed back.

It also helps water evaporate from the engine oil, and reduces moist air being sucked back into the block as the engine cools.

As a breather gets blocked, more sludge is formed and the more the filter gets blocked.

If you open the filler cap you should hear some suction. A little on early cars and building over the years.

Keep them clean, and do everybody a favour :-)
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 233
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 19:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I remember seeing on Wheeler dealers an E type Jaguar with a blocked crank case breather pipe that went into a catchment bottle located on the inner guard the whole lot was filthy a good clean up by Edd China and Co and everything was great, At least Jaguar didn't put the rubbish back into the engine.

Richard.
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 234
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 19:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul my last post was not an answer to yours cheers.

Richard.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1310
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 19:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, not really up on jags, but if engines were blowing part the rings and forcing oil through the breather it became a problem.

Not because of the breather system, because of the worm engine.

Many older breathers go to the air filler housing and would just soak the filter. Some went to the ground.

If the oil was coming out too badly and making a mess or leaving puddles, people would put a hose from the breather outlet and into an old bottle or container to catch it. :-)

Saves an engine rebuild. Owned a couple of Fords with this 'system' on. :-)
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1311
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 20:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I really must put my glasses on! lol

Blooming Worm engines . . even worse than a worn engine! :-)
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jean-pierre hilbert
New User
Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 12 November, 2014 - 00:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,
Do you have the exploded parts diagram for your car, on that document you can see how many flame traps you have. Oh, also, to test its efficiency, take a thin plastic bag and put it with the flat side over the open engine oil filler. Run the engine, rev it up and you should see the plastic bag being ''sucked-in''. This won't happen nearly as dramatic with clogged-up flame trap(s).
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1101
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 12 November, 2014 - 02:46:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jean-Pierre,

Yes, I have the Illustrated Parts Catalog, but also several other documents that I'm taking my cue from.

TSD 4252 - Supplement to the Rolls-Royce & Bentley Owner's Handbook - Silver Wraith II (USA & Canada) states:

Crankcase emission control system
Crankcase emissions are controlled by a recirculatory closed breather system.
An insulated draught tube connects the crankcase via the oil filler which is fitted with a sealed cap, to the choke housing upstream of both the choke butterfly and the carburetters. A flame trap capsule containing three wire mesh discs is fitted in a housing at the crankcase end of the draught tube. Engine emission (blow by) is drawn into the induction system via the draught tube, due to the depression in the choke housing.

[Which explains why my flame trap has fewer than the earlier 6-disc versions]

TSD 4251 - Roll_s-Royce and Bentley, 1978 Model Year Cars
Emission Control Systems
Service Schedules for Vehicle Maintenance (USA & Canada)
shows the following:

Crankcase Emissions 01

Crankcase Emissions 02

So I'm as certain as I can be that my observations and the presence of a single flame trap on these cars mesh.

Brian
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jean-pierre hilbert
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Username: jphilbert

Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 12 November, 2014 - 05:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, that's crystal clear! Thank you, I think other readers will appreciate the illustration.
Did you do the plastic-bag test yet?
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.86
Posted on Tuesday, 11 November, 2014 - 12:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The oily sticky air goes to the carbs to be burnt in the engine.
The trunking gets fresh air only.
As the engine runs it draws air through the scrolls and through the crankcase hopefully sucking out piston blow by.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.77
Posted on Wednesday, 12 November, 2014 - 09:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You lot are a load of old fuss pots.
The design is simple, it doesn't matter how many discs or how much wire wool is used.
As long as one can easily blow though it is all that is required. The chances of petrol vapour entering the crankcase and being ignited by a backfire are very remote plus the top breather elbow by the choke has under it small holes to arrest a back fire through the carbs at best this engine Just snorts sometimes in very cold temps.

My breather screens are clean, the o ring is 40 years old. The screw thread is stripped. It leaks no oil and doesn't fall off. I will eventually get it helicoiled.

All you have to do is undo the 1/4 unf bolts 7/16 af heads. Give the screens a swish in cleaner or petrol blow out. If a new o ring is to hand fit it if not available use old one. If no o ring is fitted it won't leak oil just suck a bit of air past. The breather will still work fine. This type of breather does not effect the carb mixture even if it's not fitted and the engine will still breath.

However not all the air going to the carbs would be filtered and engine fumes are smelly.

The reason for the breather design is to apply about 1"hg vacuum to stop oil leaks and to stop smelly fumes. Because there is a risk of crankcase explosion there are screens to absorb the flame. The design is about the same as any other car designed for the 60s
Eg Vauxhall Viva had a tube going from the rocker cover to the air filter. Inside the air filter was a piece of gauze with a small slab of wire wool behind it. That's the arrestor (Vauxhall tech term)

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 180
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 00:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all, during winter at say 4 degrees Celsius, plus 4 that is, the flame trap collects a lot of gunge
thus leading to very poor performance, why is this can anyone tell me,I use 20w 50 oil . The oil was replaced about 9 months ago. When the trap is blocked oil flows from engine as the gases have no where to go I assume.I replaced the sump gasket this time last year big job. All views opinions welcome.
Many thanks Hk
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 436
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 04:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert you didn't say what kind of gunk and what colour it is and also how well the trap was cleaned last time and also the state and colour of the oil now. If this was my car I would change the oil and filter I would change the flame trap filter to one of the brillo pad type and also keep an eye on the coolant level.

Ps. Happy New Year to you and Jeff.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 181
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 04:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, it's a creamy colour or it was last year, I had to blow out the feeder pipe and clean the mesh. The car drove fine all summer once I had feeder line and mesh were cleaned. By any chance might the cold weather affecting the oil?. I think, I recall reading how climates can affect engine oil?. The car has been garaged for several months now with occasional spin, when dry.
Thanks for your help Richard
Hk
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Paul Yorke
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Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1423
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 05:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Herbert, just a thought. do you do many short journeys or run the engine to keep it excercised?

This can lead to moisture build up in the block which turns into sludge.

The engine must get really hot to boil off the water and moisture. You could try running the engine until really hot with the cap open or the gauze removed. Close the cap before the engine starts to cool.

I'd use a pre-oil change flush and then give it an oil and filter change.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 182
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 05:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul, thanks for that, the car is used for short trips mainly, with the odd trip to Capital city 35 miles away. I reckon you have solved the problem re leave cap open till engine hot to burn off moisture.
Many thanks
Hk
P's is this the reason it's recommended the oil and filter are renewed every 6 months?.
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Jeff Young
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Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 231
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 07:11:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I don't think moisture in the oil is the same issue as, say, moisture in the brake fluid. Once the oil heats up, the moisture evaporates. If a lot of it is emulsified (ie: turned into sludge), then it's going to be hard to warm that part up enough to boil the water out, so a change might be in order.

Generally speaking, though, I think it'd be easier to make sure it gets warmed up property every other trip or so than to change the oil/filter more often.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 836
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 08:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is typical short journey engine not hot sludge.

Clean out the breather disks. These should be metal so heating with blow lamp will turn any sludge to ash which blows out. Or just blow through. As long as it's not blocked it's fine.

My car takes about a mile before it appears that the car is warmed up. The car really needs 10 miles to get the oil to 90c. The water coolant gets to 90c at about 3 miles. The thermostat means quick hot coolant. The engine oil is part of the cooling system but has no thermostat hence the 10 miles.

I suggest that when you do the 35 mile journey drive a wee bit faster to get more heat into the oil and take the scenic route.

20w/50 is fine for this engine. The oil and filter should be changed as stated on the oil filler cap. However should you wish the oil only could be changed at 3000 miles. The filter is quite big.

I change oil and filter at 6000 miles ish. The oil drained out is not actually dirty, the additives etc are worn. The bad stuff is in the filter. The surface area of the filter is quite large. I guess that the filter would be OK to 12,000 miles, no doubt RR over engineered the design and chose the biggest filter they could fit in case services got missed.

The brake fluid reservoir gets hot as well, this evaporates moisture via the breather holes in the reservoir caps. RR363 also allows moisture to migrate though the fluid. This means that when the moisture evaporates the moisture in the cul de sacs such as calipers moves back up the line to the reservoir to balance out the moisture. Another reason why it's best to use the car and also why unused cars hydraulics give trouble.
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Richard Treacy
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Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3246
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 11:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Even with short runs there should be no moisture in the crankcase on these V8s. Yours is not the only one of these cars to be run for short trips in a moderate climate. 4C is not particularly cold weather. A trace of condensation on the filler cap cork is OK after running for a minute but that's the limit. Surely coolant is leaking into the crankcase to have such an extreme effect on the flame trap.

If you are lucky it may only have a blown head gasket.

RT.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 966
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 14 January, 2016 - 19:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have none of these problems running on LPG, the oil is changed on a three year basis and is clean as when it was put in.
Useing 20/50 NEVER now that the modern oils far exceed the 20/50 spec.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 183
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Friday, 15 January, 2016 - 14:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks,Jeff,Robert,Richard and Patrick for all your advice.
Patrick I have a question if I may, what type of oil do you use in your car ie the grade.
Many thanks
Hk
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 967
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 15 January, 2016 - 21:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert, any 10W/40 with the spec of:
API SL/CF,ACEA A3,B3,B4.
This is a semi Synthetic oil.
Move with the times!
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1818
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 16 January, 2016 - 01:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert,

I've been using 10W40 for some time now and have considered going to 5W40, since flow when cold is more pivotal to preventing wear than flow when hot. I've stuck with conventional motor oil but have nothing against semi-synthetic or full synthetic, it's just overkill in my opinion given the frequency with which most of us change the oil in these cars.

In the US, unless you buy oil specifically for diesel engines, on cannot get API SL (CF is the diesel spec), but one should not worry about using the current spec of SN, either. I am reposting below material I have posted repeatedly regarding motor oil and what the certifying bodies have to say about it. The information from the API website, quoted below, is about as unequivocal as it can get. If one wants to argue that the API doesn't know what it's talking about with regard to motor oil and the protection it provides, I'll stick with what the API is saying.


----------------------------------------------
[Links in this document were active as of 5/5/2015]

Reading through the API & ILSAC motor oil standards/specifications for current (API SN/ILSAC GF-5)
oils and the preceding specs should put anyone's mind to rest about the suitability of currently available
motor oils for use in older car engines. On the API website, they explicitly state, "For automotive gasoline
engines, the latest engine oil service category includes the performance properties of each earlier category.
If an automotive owner's manual calls for an API SJ or SL oil, an API SM oil will provide full protection."
[See: http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/service-categories]
For oils for gasoline-powered engines, each and every specification meets or exceeds the performance of all
of its predecessors. This means that there has been a continuous improvement in lubrication performance
and that oils meeting current specifications are far more than "adequate" for older engines.

API Materials:

Motor Oil Matters Guide (2013), "Which Oil is Right for You?" -
http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/MOM_GUIDE_ENGLISH_2013.pdf

Full API 1509 Spec - 17th Ed - September 2012
(Addendum 10/2014 & Errata 3/2015,Includes ILSAC GF-5 Spec in Appendix Q)
http://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/150917thaddendum1-032515.pdf?la=en


ILSAC Final GF-5 Spec:
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/ILSAC_GF-5_Dec-22-09_final.pdf


and, from the Mobil Oil Q&A Site:

On needing to Mix Oils for ZDDP Levels:
https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-auto-experts/questions-for-auto-experts/mixing-motor-oil-to-reach-the-right-zddp-level-for-classic-cars
I find it interesting that even on this "answers" page the statement is made that a
particular one of their oils, "already contains a higher level of ZDDP (1000 ppm) that
*could* benefit your flat tappet engine." [emphasis on that could is mine]. I have yet
to find a single manufacturer who states either "will" or "does," but instead couches
the statements in ways such that the preconceived notion is addressed.

On Purported "Removal" of Zinc & Phosphorous from motor oil:
https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-auto-experts/questions-for-auto-experts/has-zinc-been-removed-from-motor-oils


Mobil Oil Product Table, including Zinc & Phosphorus Levels:
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 968
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 16 January, 2016 - 05:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"have considered going to 5W/40, since flow when cold is more pivotal to preventing wear than flow when hot."

Flow when cold takes more time with 5W40.

10W/50 is Ok on a Shadow but any less viscosity will have a detrimental effect on the big end and main bearings [rattle] also hydraulic tappets will be more pronounced on start up.
Cold engine wear= engine failure .
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Mark Aldridge
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Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 273
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, 16 January, 2016 - 06:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, whilst accepting that modern formulations may be beneficial on a fully rebuilt engine; unless the engine has been rebuilt with modern bearing fits and clearances, and modern piston and ring specs and materials, why deviate from manufacturers Viscosity specification. If you are upgrading one element of the engine, then surely all elements need to be upgraded. This was the opinion of a well respected competition engine builder, when we built a "1/2 race" Jag engine.The converse applies in that it would probably be incorrect to use a 1950 spec oil in a 1950 engine if the bearings are new given the properties of modern bearing materials.
Mark
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 969
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, 16 January, 2016 - 10:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mark, have you heard of black death within the engine and the cure through running a higher spec oil.
The 10w/40 semi synthetic fits the bill for the Shadow engine.

The only upgrade I have carried out is the running of LPG, of course we have no flame trap problem [black death] with that.

The 10w/40 semi synthetic fits the bill for the Shadow engine.
Oils have moved on from the old 20/50 days.

If I ran a higher compression and with all the bells and whisles including special inlet valve seals I may go to a 0w/30 fully synthetic oil.

IMO running a Shadow on 10w/40 and having flame trap issues is pointing to other problems that need attention, looking in books with guess work and writing on reams of paper on the subject will do no good.
Correct test procedure is the way.
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Mark Aldridge
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Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 274
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, 16 January, 2016 - 22:26:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick, I accept your logic re oil specification, but not grade. I have for the last 20 years and 150K+ miles run 20/50 or 15/50 oil with good API ratings on my Crewe Engines and other classic engines and never had sludge or flametrap issues. Regular oil changes 3000 mile intervals and regular long fast runs, 97 octane min fuel. The only engine issue I have had was on my Alfa 164 in 1990 which ran on fully synthetic oil, main dealer service intervals and the engine was absolutely Kn****red in 90k miles in 3 years .
Mark
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3247
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 16 January, 2016 - 23:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I loved those Alfas when they were new too. From the budget Alfasud Sprint and an Alfa 33 of my student days to the Alfa 90 V6 that I owned for a short time after graduation. My 164 vas a very nice car too.

Unfortunately here is a Rolls-Royce with only a blown head gasket if we are lucky.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 184
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Sunday, 17 January, 2016 - 02:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for all the advise. Thanks for your in depth reply Brian. The good news is this happened last winter and it ran perfectly all summer so it ain't terminal,
Thanks again
Hk
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 970
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 17 January, 2016 - 03:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Unfortunately here is a Rolls-Royce with only a blown head gasket if we are lucky."

Time to do a cylinder leak down test on all cylinders to show the % of failings whatever.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1426
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 17 January, 2016 - 06:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ha Ha Ha , I'd be doing head gaskets every month if that were the case.

Don't ever underestimate our damp climate! :/

Oil wise - I don't recommend anything thinner than a 10 - 40 oil. I find they rattle too much for my liking whenever they are started . . . Can't be good for anything to make those noises :-(
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 971
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, 17 January, 2016 - 21:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"I'd be doing head gaskets every month if that were the case."

Not if you use a leak down tester correctly.
You may be finding piston blow by etc from a number of causes that need attention.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1427
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 17 January, 2016 - 22:12:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Partick , I meant if every car that came in to me that had moisture around the fIller cap needed a head gasket (at best) or more . . . I'd be doing them all the time.

Owners should look at their cork filler cap gasket. It should be flat. The more moisture trapped in the engine the more the gasket bulges into a kind of bagel shape. Soft and bulged is an indication of current dampness. . . Bulged and hard means that oil changes were neglected in the past.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 192
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Saturday, 20 February, 2016 - 21:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Has anyone bought an oil filter for a Silver Shadow
from H D Rodgers USA it's 24 euro delivered?.
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Chris Miller
Grand Master
Username: cjm51213

Post Number: 400
Registered: 5-2013
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 00:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert,

Seems to me that I got a whole case from Fram for that price.

http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetailWindow.aspx?b=F&pn=PH2995

Chris.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 01:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Seems to me that I got a whole case from Fram for that price.

http://www.framcatalog.com/PartDetailWindow.aspx?b=F&pn=PH2995


Chris."

No matter how cheap something is, it's not a bargain if it's wrong!

IMHO compromising your engine's care for 20 a year makes no sense at all.
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Chris Miller
Grand Master
Username: cjm51213

Post Number: 401
Registered: 5-2013
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 01:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Why would it be wrong?
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1839
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 01:44:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris,

It's not wrong. There are any number of commercially available spin-on oil filters that can be fitted to a Silver Shadow that has the spin-on conversion or to the Silver Shadow II.

There is a lot of prejudice against FRAM filters and I don't use them myself, I've been using Bosch, but whether it's Bosch, NAPA, FRAM, Wix, Purolator, or others most major manufacturers make a filter that meets the same basic spec as the filter that's supplied by Crewe Original. The NAPA Gold 1231 is the one that most of the folks in the RROC-US seem to be using on their Shadows in recent years.

There also seems to be a love for "big cans" as opposed to smaller ones. I guess that might matter if you were running your oil "forever" and having a bit more filtering surface might help. But who actually runs their oil forever in a Shadow?

Brian
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Chris Miller
Grand Master
Username: cjm51213

Post Number: 402
Registered: 5-2013
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 01:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

Yeah, I've noticed that Fram seems to draw controversy. I posted the competitor cross reference list as well, for exactly that reason.

I was hoping that my contribution would be accepted in the spirit in which it was given -- "Here might be an answer to the question, or an alternative solution, if not an answer."

Chris.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1458
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 02:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris, I know that you are trying to assist and I'm sorry if I sounded harsh with my reply and accept that I should have qualified it more at the time.

We all have out own things that bug us , mine is attempting to save tiny amounts of money at the risk of something really expensive.

The oil filter you suggest is a much smaller filter. I know that it isn't you personally that is saying 'here you go - this one fits' and it's the manufacturers fault.

It is smaller and it has a much smaller filtering capacity.

With less area - less oil can flow through the filter before the by pass valve will open allowing unfiltered oil through.

A clogged filter will collapse and filter even less or no oil.

Obviously Manufacturers have an interest in 'selling' their products so unfortunately they want to 'match' their items with the correct specification item. Their match criteria isn't stated anywhere and neither is their cross references data. It only takes one prat to say 'yeah that's suitable' and stick it on a list and put the list 'out there'. Suddenly every other manufacturer's oil filter that almost 'matches' the wrong oil filter is also a 'match' to the genuine one.

Just because it's written down, doesn't make it correct. With the internet things have got a million times worse because deliberate and unintentional misinformation becomes woven together to give the illusion of facts.

Any compromising on your engines safety makes no sense to me. 10k engine or 20 oil filter? I accept that most of the time I am spending an extra 10 of a clients money . . . but I won't fit the wrong filter to my own car so I certainly won't do it to a clients. Even cars I sell and will never see again go off with the correct Bentley supplied oil filter on it.

But everybody has their own foibles and priorities I'm sure.

Many people will pay 150 for a meal but would not dream of paying 150 for a correct tyre. Who are we to judge?

So - sorry again Chris for what was supposed to be a tongue in cheek comment but was far too lacking by way of explaination.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 525
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 03:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I change the oil on my Rolls-Royces and Bentleys once a year, and the oil filters every other year. That means that the filter at 20 is relatively inexpensive compared to the potential consequence of getting it wrong. I therefore stick to Bentley supplied filters more out of fear than Engineering fact.
I do agree with Mr Yorke regarding the equivalence that may actually not be supported by documentation.
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 465
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 05:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Omar I would not change oil without changing the filter maybe I am a bit old fashioned (hard to teach an old dog new tricks)

Richard.
Ps I would probably get mixed up whether I had changed it last time or not
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1079
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 06:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oh dear, maybe I have made the wrong choice.

My car is a 74 SY1(SRX18501). I decided to stay with the original oil filter system and bought 5 filters from the following company:

http://www.post55parts.com/Oil-Filters-for-Silver-Clouds-Bentley-Ss-Silver-Shadows-Chassis-01001-26700_p_47.html

Has anyone any comments on how good these filters are?

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1840
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 06:21:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

If memory serves, post55parts is an effort started by a couple of RROC-US members who were tired of jumping through hoops to get certain service items. I wish I could remember who, but that bit has vanished from the cranium.

You could probably write to them to find out who they have make these things, because they don't make them in house, but have contracted out production runs to one of the bigger makers.

I have virtually no doubt that they are built to the same specs as the original ones were. Even those from Crewe Original are produced in pretty much the same way, but I don't know who they use to make theirs.

Brian
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 137
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 07:09:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There were two components of the question: the retailer and the product.

Regarding the retailer, I have dealt with HD Rodgers and am of the opinion that he is an honest and dependable merchant.

As to the product issue, the last time I needed an early Shadow filter, that is where I got it, but I do not recall it as being that costly (since I am in the same country as he, thus lower shipping costs), nor do I remember anything about the markings or manufacturer. Since he is in the USA, and if you are not, and considering shipping costs these days, a portion of that cost is simply shipping and I would think that a more local supplier may provide a comparable product without the added expense for delivery from the other side of the world. I am just saying.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 193
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 07:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Christian, I have ordered a filter from same, the price is very reasonable at 24 euro. It costs 17 US Dollars plus 7 Dollar's postage. The reason I asked the question originally was the same filer would cost 50 euro from UK.
Many thanks Christian.
Hk
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1841
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 21 February, 2016 - 07:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

H.D. Rogers is pretty well thought of, at least if history is any guide and I have to presume the original question was about the cartridge style filter, not a spin on.

$17.95 is not an outrageous price and if he's shipping it to the UK for about $9 that's not all that bad, either.

It amazes me that with VAT both Introcar and Flying Spares charge about 32 GBP ($46 USD,41.50 Euros) for the same thing. This is one of those cases where sourcing from the US to the UK appears to be much cheaper. I had the same situation in reverse when I needed compliance mounts for the Wraith II. Even with shipping it was cheaper to source them from the UK. Go figure.

Brian
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gordon le feuvre
Prolific User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2016 - 03:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My original post saiid 6-7 breather discs. I now cannot remember exactly what model, but in the v8 covering cloud, shadow, spirit have seen separate discs, discs held together in a pressed housing and the "Brillo pad" type wire wool shaped for the hole. As bob says being clean is paramount. I am always amazed at how prices jump across pond. Some parts in uk for20 pound sterling end up in USA at 90$ or more. This applies to car and motorcycle equally,
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1915
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 22 February, 2016 - 08:16:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gordon,

The fine mesh screens are an application of the screens used by Humphrey Davy in his Miner's Safety Lamp to prevent the test flame igniting the explosive gas mixture present in the air in many underground coal mines. The effectiveness of this lamp in giving an indication of the methane content of mine air has to be seen to be believed and the variation that occurs between the mine floor and roof in a "gassy" mine is still used today despite alternative flame-proof testing devices being available as miners trust the lamp to give an accurate indication. The mesh screens are intended to prevent flame "flash back" igniting the mine air mixture to cause an explosion/fire.

The fine mesh in the in the engine intake system is subject to clogging by soot particles/oil mist from the sump and this is why regular cleaning is a preventative maintenance necessity. The mesh is less prone to this problem however,IMHO, it is also less effective as a flame trap due to its more open structure which could provide a path for a flash back if not correctly installed in the breather outlet.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1462
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 10:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here are a few pics from the past month.

Had a few cars in which have been sitting around and not used much. They have not had oil changes for a couple of years.

Lots of condensation without a blown head gasket in sight thankfully.

The oil filter is not the worse I've seen but as you can see the elements break down and why regular changes and the extra capacity is so important.

Hope the link works.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=963418327027673&id=137933226242858
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 144
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 15:58:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul...
Since you brought it up in the comments in the link, what can be done about a severe accumulation of the sludge? It is a problem with my EPW Silver Dawn, SUJ128. You can feel it by probing with a finger thru sump drain plug orifice. I know that it is wishful thinking that it will eventually be comingled with the new oil and after enough repetative changes will be elimiinated, but better judgment indicates that it just stays there at the bottom of the pan and never gets mixed with the fresh oil. Is there some sort of "cleaner" that can be added to the oil at change time that will help to make it less viscous and thus more likely to be mixed with the oil as it drains out....or, is dropping the pan the only "real" solution? I suppose I have known all along that the answer is "yes, must drop the pan" but wishfull thinking is a hard habit to break. Any suggestions before I go the route of the obvious proper solution?? Thanks!
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 537
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 16:19:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

is dropping the pan a big job on your car?
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1463
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 19:05:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christian,

Without sticking my finger in your hole it's hard to comment on your actual case.

If there's more than a few mm then probably not.

Wynns oil change treatment is one that I would recommend and use on cars with either very dirty oil (visually on dip stick) or with lazy hydraulic tappets.

I've never tried it yet but . . . I have wondered about pouring thinners or petrol down the dip stick to soften up a light amount of sludge. (No smoking or sparks please)

[Also wondered about using an ultrasonic cleaner clamped to the sump somehow to break it up. ]

Always change your oil after a run and as hot as you can safely do it. (Diff oil as well).

Probably anything more than a few mm and it becomes futile.

Sometimes it is difficult enough to remove the sludge with a scraper.

Here can be found a few pics of what you may be up against. .

http://everythingrollsroyce.com/only_done_x_miles_this_year!.htm

Anything more than 10mm and I would start to worry about the oil pickup. Usually the sludge is shallower under it but with pivoted strainers they can dunk into the sludge causing low oil pressure immediately after an oil change. (Not sure if that is the case on yours . . Sunday morning and my brain is just idling. :-) )

Has your car got the engine breather on the rocker cover. Water finds it harder to escape from the block ones on early cards. (IMHO).

With the sump off you can also remove the crankshaft sludge traps and clean them out.

Personally I do not like aggressively flushing an engine in case hard carbonised oil is freed up.

Omar you're right. . It's much easier to remove the sump than rebuild an engine and a sump gasket is relatively cheap, the worry is, do you check big ends and mains while you are there? 'What if' puts many people off :-(

(Sorry to use links instead of inserting photos but I'm on a mobile device and resizing is a pain. )
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 145
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 21:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Omar...
When I was younger, I loved crawling around under my "pets" on a roller, but it is now getting to the point where picking up a dropped wrench is not my idea of fun! Time to invest in a taller garage and a lift, I suppose.

Paul...
Your photo of the filter can is reminiscent of what I found upon the can's first removal...spoonsfull of black gunk the consistency of yogurt! The material in the pan is similar to that based on what I get from a finger inserted. Before I go the pan removal route, next oil change I am thinking of making up some sort of right angle tube and figure a way to use air pressure to spray a solvent and thin oil mixture into the pan and rotate the tube around a bit in the hopes of flushing out at least some of what is in the viscinity of the hole. While I am not sure if that will be at all effective, I am sure it will create a bloody mess! What fun!
Thanks for your insights.
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 146
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 21:47:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

P.S.
Paul...yes, I have been leary of the aggressive engine flushes for exactly that reason. As to the breather tube, yes, it runs from the cover and down the front side of the engine. My Dawn is not early, but late, and one of the last ones in 1955 with the twin carbs...which I like except that they fill up the available space and make it a hassle to get to the bolt head in order to remove the oil filter can. I end up having to remove parts of the linkages and intake and then drop the can down. I'm told to not even think about removing the fan belt and maneuvering the can out towards the front and that long extensions and swivel joints on a socket can help, but I have not been able to make that idea work. Takes me several hours to disassemble everything, change filter element, and reassemble.
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Jonas TRACHSEL
Frequent User
Username: jonas_trachsel

Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 22:15:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian
Get your trusted mechanic to drop your Dawn's oil pan. That should not cost a kings' ransom but give you peace of mind.
Had to do it twice on GZU7 before the engine was rebuilt. Was a real mess when oil pan was cleaned out with a steam cleaner. To drop the oil pan of a 20/25 HP as long as no under pans are fitted was not such a big task.
Jonas
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1464
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 22:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

There is also the oil level sender hole for some extra mess making. :-)

You've also got a baffle to get around. If the filter was that bad I'd recommend biting the bullet.

A ramp is definitely a God send.

Sludge trap removal will be tricky through the sump plug hole . . . but I guess they manage to do keyhole heart surgery! :-)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3250
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 06 March, 2016 - 22:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Cripes. Changing tghe oil filter on an R-Type, or Silver Dawn with SUs, is a 14 minute job. Drop it with an open-ender and let it drain before stuffing a rag into it to protect the garage floor against stains. Remove the windscreen washer bottle and pass the assembly up past the bulkhead through the washer bottle cradle.

I first did this on B174UM in 1970 at the age of 14. With 800.000km on the clock and regular 8000km changes or earlier, guess how many times I have changed the oil filter since then.

As to dairy products in the sump or showing on the filler cap you may be sure that only the head gasket is blown if you are lucky.

RT.
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 07 March, 2016 - 07:37:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard...
Yes, Cripes! I wish that I could agree with you, but mine does not have the washer bottle in place anyway (removed years ago prior to my ownership) and I assure you that I am capable of determining whether "a square peg will fit into a round hole" and can also assure you that while your procedure works fine on my Cloud I, and may work on YOUR Dawn, it DOES NOT work on mine. Perhaps there were changes in things during the series? I will follow later with photos to support that there is no room for the filter to go anywhere but sideways and forward past the dynamo with belt removed (spilling its contents in the process), or down, and certainly NOT towards the bulkhead. That was my first "expectation" but a simple assessment of "the size of the object that must fit thru the available space" eliminated that. Even my "go to" second pair of eyes (trusty and 40 years experienced independent RR mechanic) agreed.
P.S. No dairy products, just black accumulated sludge from the decades prior to my ownership
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 148
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 07 March, 2016 - 07:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

P.S. The fact that I cannot even get my arms into the available space (and I am not a large person) to use the open ender, as opposed to using ratchets, sockets, swivel joints, extensions, etc as the mechanic does, is further suggestive that there must have been some changes in things. As noted, the air intake between silencer and carbs must be removed to even get enough access to get in there with a spanner, and then actually be able to turn it. I wish it weren't so, but "them's the facts".
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 149
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Monday, 07 March, 2016 - 08:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

P.P.S.
Paul...
Yes, thanks for the suggestion of the oil sender as another access point, and indeed the baffle will limit what can be done, but the more I consider the issue, the more I think that it is worth a try to see what comes out of it, especially if the location of the baffle allows for solvent/oil to be sprayed in one access point and allowed to flow out the other and then vice versa.
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Omar M. Shams
Grand Master
Username: omar

Post Number: 538
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Monday, 07 March, 2016 - 14:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Christian,
Jonas and Paul are in the "remove the pan"camp. They are so so so right.
You will only know when you take the pan out and see what crap is in there that you will never be able to remove effectively without a sump removal. If you try any other method then there is a big chance that one little piece of crap will dislodge but not fall out straight away but will eventually drop out and find a small oil gallery and block it. If that oil gallery is a big end or main bearing then you have an engine overhaul to contend with that you never anticipated or wanted. Shyte that is stuck in one place for life is way better than mobile shyte.
Sometimes cleaning (with good intentions) can make a situation worse than doing nothing.
If you drop the pan you will get full access and will be able to do a far better job than any other means.
Good luck.
Omar
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3252
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 18:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christain,


quote:

Takes me several hours to disassemble everything, change filter element, and reassemble




I enjoy your sense of humour.

RT/
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 155
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 20:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

With all due respect, and I do sincerely respect you, Sir, but we should all afford respect to each other.

Please refer back to my earlier postings on 7 March, 2016, at 07:37AM and 07:52AM.

When I find time, I will post photos to show that a baseball (US sized), let alone the cannister, WILL NOT FIT through the available openings, and certainly not my arms to reach the top bolt head of the cannister without removing the noted components, and that DOWN is the only way for the cannister to go.

Sorry, but "them's the facts".
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3253
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 21:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

Sorry, but "them's the facts".



There is nothing more true than a fact. A fact is a fact. Or is it ? We all hope so at least. Then again how can we be sure ? Einstein stated nonlocality as a fact but was proven wrong. Just an idea after all. When being told a fact out of the blue be suspicious.
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 156
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 22:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

1955 Silver Dawn, SUJ128, twin carbs added that year. Better photos to follow. I am busy writing state supreme court brief due next week and another answer brief for different case due two weeks after that. This photo is from file, taken years ago, but gives a hint that there is not much room.

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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3254
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 22:41:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Fairly standard underbonnet. What's the problem ? Sorry to interrupt your incredibly important brief with the Supreme Court.




With luck you will be let off with a Royal Pardon
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3255
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 23:10:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mind you, that wholesale amateur change to the intake system may just explain why your hybrid is a difficult one to service,
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1473
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 12 March, 2016 - 23:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

you just need to practice more.

Shame you are not closer to Richard. He could show you how, plus do your head gasket and get the nitty gritty in your briefs sorted out, all in less time than it takes you to do the oil filter. :-)

Take a deep breath, step away from the forum, get on with something you enjoy or is useful.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3256
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 00:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No wonder. Alice has been in wonderland. This Silver Dawn has been ImProved. Very sad. Check out the air cleaner and the deleted demister. Why do they do it ?
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1098
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 01:49:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I just don't get this need for personal abuse. A difference of opinion is fine, but why the personal insults. To quote Christian from an earlier entry, "we should all afford respect to each other."

Geoff
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3257
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 14:33:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

There has been nothing persoan here. The thread is about flame traps on later cars, but has turned to an implied frustration when changing a completely different component on an earlier unrelated vehicle. Given that the Silver Dawn cited has been modified all observations and knowledge of standard procedures are certainly void.
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 157
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 15:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I first acquired the 1955 Silver Dawn, SUJ128, I had the impression that the dual SU setup was a custom "one-off" and was pleased with the performance it provided, but then somewhere in a study of the list of modifications that take place through any series, I observed that it was noted that at some point in 1955 that was the intended production modification. It is fair to assume that it was in anticipation of the Silver Cloud model that came out the following year and which was standard with dual SUs. That "modification" on the last of the Silver Dawns was therefore designed at Crewe and incorporated into the series, rather than a one-off custom, and in any case is NOT an "amateur wholesale change". Likewise, the drawing of air from under the right wing, rather that from the radiator tray as earlier was, for whatever reason, a deliberate Crewe modification I suspect. Yes, these deliberate "upgrades" cause interference with the noted filter service procedures, but only in that one year. When those "modifications" were applied to the Silver Cloud I, the engine bay is wider which allows room to get the cannister out past the bulkhead with barely any inconvenience.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3258
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 18:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It wpuld be useful to see the build sheets for this car if you have them. Also, a fuller picture. The carburettors are not the normal black finish, not that it matters, and the intake plenum may even be unique. Do I see a glimpse of the windscreen washer bottle to the lower left of the photo ?

The archives show just a few Silver Dawns (almost all are coachbuilt) delivered with SUs, but those have strictly standard R-Type components. S1/SC cars have a completely different cylinder head with an integral inlet manifold and feature the same oil filter fitted from 1955 to 1977.

As the owner of an R-Type for decades I am the first to admit that the MkVI motor missed the mark when new. Ir was sad as it could have been great. Once rebuilt with full-length liners as it deserved from scratch it is quite good. My own camshaft design lifts the game too. Regardless, in my opinion that motor is simply shamed by the S1 engine. The S1 engine is in my book the best automotive engine ever produced in the universe. With such a small revision that refined B60/B61/B62, the S1 engine should have been in the cars from 1946. It was only by chance that it came about first in the mid-series R-Type Continental and carried over to the S1 as the V8 was too late in its development by 1953. Those who own an S1 own a masterpiece,
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 3259
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 19:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Around 1975.
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Christian S. Hansen
Prolific User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 158
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Sunday, 13 March, 2016 - 20:45:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sir...
I cannot pretend to know as much about the technical aspects of the cars in my collection as do many others, yourself included, of course. I simply know that I try to acquire them in appropriately well preserved condition that allows me to enjoy driving them whenever I desire on the theory that "life is too short to drive a boring car."

I do not have the build sheets for the Silver Dawn and were I not fated to a stressful life, I should have purchased them as they would no doubt shed more light on why mine is the way it is. I just went back to the Tech library and scanned the chassis modification sheets and could not find where there was any reference to twin SUs being installed and I do not recall where I got that information...maybe it was a fantasy...I don't know. It is the way it is, and I am quite pleased with it however it came about, whether it is custom or not. Seems to me that the idea should not have been that difficult to adapt if custom ordered considering that the similar engine with twin carbs was standard on the Bentley. I really should get those build sheets.

I also stand corrected regarding the transition to the Cloud engine. I suppose that what I was proposing was that the installation of the twin SUs was the natural evolution for the Rolls-Royce which, if it did not deliberately begin with the 1955 Dawn, became standard on the Silver Cloud evolutionary sequence. In my perhaps overly simplistic view, I see the 6 cyinder engine and chassis as a constantly evolving and improving design that carried over from the pre-war small chassis and culminated with the Cloud I. I agree with your assessment of the Cloud I, and with the addition of power steering, that model is the pinnacle of the design evolution which I find to be preferable for touring as opposed to the Dawn. I do love them both however, although the classic lines of the Silver Dawn seem to garner more attention, with perhaps the most common being that it looks older than a 50s car which is, to me, one of its desirable features...pre-war styling, but post-war performance.
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Eric Molenaar
New User
Username: aussiewraith78

Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2021
Posted on Tuesday, 01 February, 2022 - 22:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello All,
Today i cleaned my flame trap as i have celebrated my 12 month custodianship of LRH32854.
I don't know when this was last done but it was completely blocked. I couldnt see any light through it even as i pointed it to the sun.
Easily cleaned with carby cleaner and compressed air. However it was a bugger to remove from the oil filler as who ever did it last resealed everything with silicone including the bolt in the housing. The internals of the oil filler threads are stripped so I'm going to have to helicoil or re tap it. I was wondering if any of you learned gentleman know the size i will need, i think its a 1/4" 28 unf but not sure. Still can't get my head around inches as im from a metric generation.
Any advice would be much appreciated and as always Thank you in advance.
Cheers Eric
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Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 739
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Tuesday, 01 February, 2022 - 23:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

After a run, I pop the oil filler cap to let everything breathe and any water vapor evaporate. You may find there will be no milky goo under the cap on the cork surface and the flame trap remains cleaner for a longer period of time.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2497
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 02 February, 2022 - 01:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Water vapor to evaporate after a run, get this on cars that are not used much unless the head gasket is on way.
Cure use the car and not have it as a garage queen, better still do some heavy towing that will give it a good shakedown and confirm a head gasket starting to let go!.
Or a leak down test.

You could run LPG much kinder to the engine !!!!!
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 2498
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 02 February, 2022 - 02:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here is a picture of mine as a used car on LPG.

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Robert J. Sprauer
Frequent User
Username: wraithman

Post Number: 743
Registered: 11-2017
Posted on Wednesday, 02 February, 2022 - 02:52:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

RR's were never designed for towing trailers.

Water vapor is a by product of combustion and sludge on the flame trap is not an indicator of a faulty head gasket.

HG issues are evidenced thru the exhaust and there are many definitive was of testing that.

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