| Author | Message | ||
     Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 104 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Everyone, I have checked out all the Tee's on the site in relation to sump gasket renewal, is the process easy ie just remove bolts fit gasket and renew?. Any advice much appreciated.Thanks in advance. H.K | ||
| Bob uk Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.87 |
The gasket is floppy so evo stick it to the sump pan Then use grease on gasket to engine joint Observe torture settings for bolts Replace oil level sensor gasket Check oil strainer This is a 4 cups of tea job Don't rush use axle stands (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 105 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Bob, thanks very much for your advice, I have the gasket...so ill report back when job done. Many thanks H.K. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 166 Registered: 6-2005 |
A word of warning. Don't replace the oil level sensor gasket unless there are signs of a leak. The assembly itself is diecast and it is very easy to distort it when replacing it if excess torque is applied to the attaching screws. If this happens it is difficult to prevent it leaking. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 106 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi John, thanks very much for your advice. H.K | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 139 Registered: 3-2012 |
The sump gasket has finally failed today.I removed the car from the shed to start engine etc.,left her running for approx half hour a pool of oil formed.. which has never happened before(normally just a drop or 2). I bought the gasket last May for same,.. just never got round to fit same.., she is obviously now grounded till such time its replaced. I am somewhat shocked at how quickly a gasket (if that's what gone) , can suddenly go from odd drop to approx 50\100 mls. Once again thanks to Bob and John for earlier advice. Today's question is..can I simply remove all bolts and the sump will simply slip out.. or are there other mechanical parts to remove.. to aid removal. Many thanks. Have a good holiday one and all.. Hk | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1342 Registered: 6-2006 |
Check where the audio is coming from first. have you recently topped up your oil? some bolts loosen themselves and leak . do you often leave it running for half an hour ? it may be just because the car is standing still and would be ok whilst driving. you will need to support the engine because the front cross member and mounting block access. if you have a shadow to you will need to drop the rack too. Most sump leaks turn out to be the bolts above the rear of the subframe being loose. Otherwise it's more likely to be somewhere else. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 141 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Paul, thanks so much for your reply, and as you predicted one bolt toward the rear subframe accumulator side is obviously loose by half inch, tightening same will prove a challenge. While under the car I realized how big a job it will be if I ever need to renew sump gasket. A big thank you Paul Ill report back on progress within next few weeks, enjoy the holiday ahead. Hk | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2012 |
PS. I do leave her running for a time even if I'm taking her for a drive, to ensure all is good and no leaks etc. Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.78 |
I agree with Paul on his worthy observation about loose bolts. First. Never overtighten in an effort to seal. In every case I have seen it has caused damage to sump pans which can usually be repaired, but don't do it in the first place. Rocker boxes attract overtightening as well, I have seen some serious bent ones with squashed gaskets hanging out covered in gasket gloop. Nice looking mess not. The bolts come loose because the cork gasket has shrunk a small amount. I think that the oil swells the cork and when left not running the oil dries out. So in the first instance I would tighten up the bolts to the correct torque. Because wielding a torque wrench under a car can be awkward. Using your prefered tools do a dummy run in a bench vice to refresh ones memory of what the correct torque fills like. Check with torque wrench. My prefered tools are 3/8 drive to loosen and tighten and 1/4 drive for running. I dislike air ratchets for this job. However electric screw drivers are good. I never start threads with power tools. Torque wrenches. These need not be expensive. I have a expensive clicky one. And a much cheaper bendy bar one. The bendy bar one can not go out of calibration and is just as good. The main thing with sump bolts is that they are all the same and within 5% of the correct figure. Before the engine mounts are released scribe round them with a scriber. After refitting rub a finger of chassis grease over the line. To support engine a 4x4 fence post across the suspension turrets. Use 2 pieces. I have done this with many cars, it's actually part of a general service. And often the leaks go to an acceptable level. Which is no oil on the floor. If the gasket needs to be changed then all the bolts have been out and you will have an immediate memory of how to do the job. If removing the sump then it should be cleaned out. The oil level thingy can be removed to give access under the baffle. The oil level whatnot is delicate and there has been reports of the level aluminum body breaking and a massive leak. Diesel or paraffin for cleaning. If refinishing aluminum wheel paint works. Take your time. My diy method of work is to put the car on stands then tea break. Then lay out all the tools I think I need. Then work for 2 hours slowly then tea break. I use a bucket of warm water and hand cleaner to keep the wife happy. This job is a dirty and greasy And tomorrow's another day. And check the dip stick tube. Use barrier cream on hands. Demetitus can strike any one regardless of age. Once it happens then you will not be able to touch oil ever again. I have written the above because I don't know what you know, if I am teaching granny to suck eggs then sorry, but on the other hand others reading may not know. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1344 Registered: 6-2006 |
The rear six bolts unwind themselves. Two rears above the subframe . Most people do not check these bolts at service time. If they do occasionally do them they don't bother with the hidden ones. Often cars we haven't seen before come in with them missing. This also applies to the (mostly) left hand bolts on each exhaust manifold. If you care for your future care costs . . Check them now and at the annual service thereafter. On some year cars It can take 1/2 hour to wind the ones above the subframe in using three or more different spanners. This is doing it on a ramp . . . Even more fun on the ground. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 143 Registered: 3-2012 |
Thanks very much Bob and Paul for your detailed explanation. I shall report back in next few weeks. Hk | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 145 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi everyone, just in from under the car,about half of the bolts were loose to some degree, with one close to falling off. I reckon they are two bolts to rear of sump I can't access right now. On a quick assessment I think ..job done..I have cardboard under the sump area of car to accesss if the problem has been rectified..for now at least. A big thanks to Paul and Bob. Many thanks. Hubert kelly | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 146 Registered: 3-2012 |
PS I have several cups of tea Bob .. Hk | ||
| Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert Experienced User Username: jphilbert Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2013 |
Hubert, also clean your flametrap(s)! If they are clogged up, then the resulting positive crankcase pressure will blow the oil through your new oil pan gasket. My gasket was leaking dozens of drops overnight despite correct bolt torquing, and cleaning the flame traps resulted in a clean garage floor. I still have the new gasket for future use ;) | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 148 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Jean-Pierre, thanks very much for your advice, I have no idea where the flametrap is as of yet. I'll check this site to see if I can get info from tech manual. Many thanks. Hk | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2012 |
Located it on net, thanks Jean- Pierre I'll tackle it next weekend. Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.78 |
Another worthy observation from Paul. In an ideal world all these bolts are checked on a service. But due to time constraints and customers money the mechanic has to cut corners. I as a professional tried not to do this and certain aspects of the servicing must be correct. Back to the oil leak. Next stage is let the oil flung over every thing drain off with a help with rags. Then park the car over clean card board. Suck and see. Pro mechanics haven't the time to mess around like this, and tomorrow is not on. Advantage to diy. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Benoit Leus Prolific User Username: benoitleus Post Number: 183 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hi Hubert, last spring I replaced the sump gasket on my Shadow 2. It was a horrible job to do (lying on the floor) and one I do not want to repeat in a hurry. If ever you decide to tackle yours I am more than willing to share my experience with you. Benoit | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 151 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Benoit,thanks very much for your offer of advice if I should replace gasket. Many thanks Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.93 |
When a sump is removed, oil tends to drip out, which ends up over you. So once the sump is off leave overnight, meanwhile clean the sump and bolts etc. By the time you have got that far it will be a day's work and tomorrow's another day. This job is not hard just endless bolt twirling in daft positions. It's a case of turn the radio on and make yours self comfortable, cushion for head saves neck ache. Also leave two easy bolts either side till last. This will support the sump while you turn the awkward ones a 1/16 of turn at a time. Hardboard is better than card board to lay on. Safety. If you are old and decrepid like me. Then never use wheels of cars on stands to haul yourself up, they turn and rip your hand up. I use a 3 step step ladder with rubber feet. Recommended. Draper expert 1/4 drive socket set. Good quality at a reasonable price. Too many mince pies and you will need the car higher. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 155 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Jean-Pierre, just to let ya know I got the flametrap filter cleaned and fitter. Many thanks for your advice. From researching the topic I read a blocked flametrap can give the impression engine is using excess oil Many thanks Hk | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2012 |
I have made a start on removing the old sump gasket.I will need approx 3 bolts as one missing, someone had replaced a bolt with screw,can anyone advise me on the size/thread required I'm sure FS have them. Thanks in advance Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.71 |
I think they are 1/4 UNF with a 7/16 a/f spanner size. These bolts are available from nut and bolt suppliers a approx 10pence each. So buy 50 because this is a commom brit car bolt size. The other two are 5\16 UNF and 3/8 UNF. My local shop is called Thunder bolts in a flash. They have minimum order of £10 so one might as well grab a handful of useful sizes. 2 BA 3BA and 4BA nuts and washers are handy and cheap. It astounds me when people buy general nuts and bolts from car shops. The mark up is often 20 fold. I guarantee that you will find a need for the extra stuff. Think of it as your stores. Scruffy looking nuts and bolts aren't a problem because you will have a box of them in your stores. Packets of cable ties to round up the invoice. Also selection boxes are useful. I have a box of assorted split pins 200 pins £6. 500 assorted glass fuses £10. Car shop price 20p each. 5 in a bubble pack is £1. Then there's also ones house that needs nuts and bolts. I won't start on wood screws but these are so cheap in bulk I don't bother with nails. Near you there will be a nut and bolt shop. Because the world would fall apart with them. Bit like the food of engineering. Also engineers supplies and motor factors for selection boxes. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2012 |
Thank you very much Bob, I'll keep ya posted on progress, it will take a few weeks as I want to take things slowly(weekend project) Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.76 |
Note. It's ok to cut bolts down. Screw nut on first cut bolt file a chamfer then screw nut off to clean up thread. If the end of a steel bolt has been cut then it will rust. It won't if Screwed into a blind hole. So pick and chose were cut down bolts are used. Use zinc plated bolts. Cadium is expensive and hazardous to health. Bolts that are oiled seldom seize. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2013 |
Bob is being very tongue in cheek about the 4 cups of tea to do the job. My suggestion is this, get the car up securely on stands. Open a one litre vodka bottle and rip it half way before commencing. Purchase a set of reasonably cheap Chinese ring and open ender spanners and have a vice and oxy set ready to bend the spanner to fit into ridiculous positions. The vodka will drug your body in such a way you won't feel the usual mechanic's pain of bending your spine like an eel's. Take the harder to get bolts out first using one cup of tea as stimulant after each bolt. What ever you do don't panic. Try to remain calm. After you get the sump off wack down the remaining vodka in one hit because you deserve it. Take a day off and then put the entire thing back together completely sober but have the wife/partner/cat sent to the nearest boozer for a case of beer to celebrate after the job is complete. Then get totally smashed because you deserve it. Make certain you double check each bolt and that you put oil back in the engine. Professional mechanics do leave oil out of gearboxes, final drives and engines after a major overhaul, but what the hell, we can always get another job, you can't get another engine without a world of pain. Good luck PS Unless you enjoy digging grease and dirt out of your eyeballs work so that you are not directly under where your hands are touching the car or wear safety glasses. Also, be very careful not to overtighten the bolts as this will result in the aluminium threads stripping and you will not enjoy the fun involved in helicoiling the stripped threads especially when you come across a hole where the tap is too long to fit into the hole - nasty but common. Have fun and don't take it too seriously. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 613 Registered: 5-2012 |
In January 2012 the Russian Government re-classified beer as an alcoholic drink. It had previously been known as a soft drink. How disappointing Vladimir. The Russians have gone soft. They will be banning Vodka next. | ||
| Jean-Pierre 'JP' Hilbert Experienced User Username: jphilbert Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2013 |
Since many years, sale of vodka and beer already banned after 22h00...some ''produkti' (corner shops) in the suburbs of Moscow have 'arrangements' with the police...make your own conclusions. (@ moderator David: the system did not take the cyrillic alphabet, it made some weird signs instead-not that it really matters...) Jean-Pierre - not unexpected with the current software. The forthcoming upgrade to new software may or may not include facilities for use of foreign languages - whether this will happen include provision foreign scripts will be a decision for the Administrator however foreign scripts would create significant problems with Moderation from my experience on another international Forum. But we are a car forum, so here's my question: as I want to get my ducks aligned for my oil pan gasket change: would the use of some liquid sealing component be recommended, in addition to the gasket itself? | ||
| Bob Reynolds Prolific User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 219 Registered: 8-2012 |
"as I want to get my ducks aligned for my oil pan gasket change: would the use of some liquid sealing component be recommended" That's a quacking idea.  | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2013 |
"They will be banning Vodka next" Geoff this is impossible. The head of the Russian Orthodox church once wrote to the Czar complaining about the evils of grog and the Czar wrote back "Drinking is the love of the Rus, we cannot live without it". And Gorby tried to restrict it and the entire country's sugar supply disappeared overnight. Indeed in Soviet times an additive was put into the alcohol fluid used in Mig Fighter jets hydraulic systems as many a 205 litre drum of the stuff was on a regular basis misappropriated for reasons nobody could understand. Indeed the grog and machinery go hand in hand, and the Swedes have perfected this as shown by the designs in Saab and Scanias. As for oil pan gaskets there are many sealants one can use. I prefer the Loctite range of non hard setting sealants but I use the sealant not to seal but to move the gasket into place and keep it there before hoisting the sump up to the block.This is because the evil gasket itself regardless of the care given to it acts like a drunken sailor after the first holding bolt is put in. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1522 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vladimir, The MIG hydraulic fluid theft also occurred in WW2 on US Navy PT boats in the South Pacific - the torpedoes on these boats used ethanol as fuel which was often drained by the crew and used as barter with Australia personnel for Japanese war souvenirs. It was not unusual for PT boats on patrol to only have one or two usable torpedoes as the others had been drained completely. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.81 |
I use evostick. On sump pan side and grease on the engine side, after the evostick has glued the gasket to the sump. Don't fully tighten any bolts until all the bolts are fitted. A 1/4 drive flexible spring is good for driving but not undoing. Laying underneath an old car with oily poo dropping on you is enough to drive one to drink. I have a wet room with hotwater and a power shower. Start with swarfega. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Benoit Leus Prolific User Username: benoitleus Post Number: 188 Registered: 6-2009 |
I did this job last year and hated every minute of it ! I used a 3M sealant on the sump pan side and grease on the engine side. This seems to do the trick as there sump gasket is now completely oil tight. Don't forget to check all bolts after you've driven the car a bit, as they will probably need to be retightened. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi all,sump removed yesterday. I ended up lowering exhaust, loosening 2 ball joints, at steering box and opposite joint and separating the front "cross member". I had to remove the sump strainer which made the removal of sump easier. Today I cleaned the sump... the old gasket looked perfect..I had to use a heat gun to remove old gasket. I hope to fit gasket next weekend..Bob recommended evo stick to sump and grease from gasket to engine. Question any harm in using gasket sealant on both sides for extra strength. I have ordered few bits from FS England oil filter and the like. Thanks to everyone for all your advice, I shall update when fully complete. Many thanks HK PS I hope never to replace a Rolls Royce sump again .. | ||
| richard george yeaman Prolific User Username: richyrich Post Number: 252 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Hubert you are getting to be quite a dab hand with the spanners I would take Bob UKs advice about the gasket sealant good luck with the rebuild. Richard. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 622 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Hubert I would go with Benoit's method of sealant on the sump side and grease on the engine side. That way it will be easy to remove the sump next time it needs to come off. Also, cleaning old sealant off will be so much easier with the sump on the workbench. Engine side, a quick wipe. Geoff. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Richard and Geoff, thanks for your advice I shall report back when complete Many thanks Hk | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2012 |
Sump and gasket fitted today, thanks to one and all for your help. I await delivery of oil filter next week. Many thanks Hubert kelly | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 164 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Anthony I'm answering your pm here as others may have similar questions?. 1. I used two 2 and half tonne draper ramps, I jacked car onto them as,.. car reversed into shed to make use of day light. Hand brake applied ,car in gear I used 2 Axel stands at the swing arm area toward the shock. Rear wheels secured. I also had 2 bottle jacks which I placed half way on car at cross member. 2. Re.. lifting engine my car (1968) has 4 speed box which has a removable plate for access to torque convertor,by removing this I had access to the rear bolts of the sump with socket. I had access to the rear side bolts with no 11 spanner,tight space but time is the key. NOW THE THING IS..a 3 speed box one might not have this access.. so engine may need to be moved to access same??. 3. To access the front bolts I removed the front cross member, the engine was supported to do this, as the engine sits in it. I removed the two bolts to the bottom of cross member which attrach the member to a engine mount. I REMOVED EXHAUST. 4.The steering rack/assembly gets in the way,so I separated ball joint at steering box and opposite side this proved difficult,I eventually realized that moving the steering wheel with the bolt off, aided the loosening of same. I used a splitter, however their seamed to have be down ward pressure, preventing this.NOTE their is a special tool to separate the ball joint as a result I have the rubber boot on order as the condition deteriorated during the process. Note each ball joint had a clip pin which needs removing prior to loosening. 5.Remove wire from oil level sensor,tiny nut so be careful not to loose. 6.I removed all bolts from(sump) which can take a lot of time! 7. Note removing the sump/pan was awkward, the pan strainer had to be removed,the nut is easily accessed, however I had to secure the bolt at end of strainer to loosen. 8. To remove the pan.. its a bit fiddley.. I used rtv silicone rubber sealant to secure to pan .I used this both sides but TAKE advice on this .Note to the rear of the engine it looks like its plated together so I used the silicone on rear engine part and front engine part and a smear of greace to either side.. NOTE this is what I did personally,.. I no way advise, or recommend same, its already discussed in form. I got some new bolts 5 in total from local motor factors and that's basically it I am awaiting oil filter ball join boot and the ball joint greace attachment to lubricate same.. Shin shin job done ..well almost Hope this is of help Anthony Hubert kelly |
