| Author | Message | ||
     Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2009 |
If I attempt to remove the outlet adaptor on my car's rear pump and the entire pump unscrews instead, what does it hurt to go ahead and remove it for a teardown and replacement of the O-rings, and general inspection, reassemble it and reinstall it? | ||
| Jim Walters New User Username: jim_walters Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2014 |
Hi Randy, if it was that loose then you might as well completely remove it, clean it out, and replace the O rings. Make sure you get EPDM ones though. Have a look at the manual, there is one very small O ring that seals the inner body that is sometimes overlooked. You should make or get the correct castle socket to tighten it back in properly. Jim. SRE22493 NAC-05370 www.bristolmotors.com | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2009 |
Just a "what if" question. I think I will go ahead and remove the pump. I thought I could get the rear pump without removing the air horn, but I think maybe not after looking. I am going to replace the reservoir hoses and clamps while at it. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 738 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, Geoff Wootton had an excellent suggestion for creating a "workbench" of a sort for getting to some of the more centrally located items on these cars. I built one, which can be seen in this post. It really does make some things much easier to get to and prevents the need to remove certain bits that have to come off if you're trying to do access from the side. Brian | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1169 Registered: 6-2006 |
The top adaptor id torqued far higher than the pump to the cam cover. Why are you trying to take the adaptor off and leave the pump on the car? You MUST NOT try to re-tighten the adaptor with the pump on the car. It could be possible with the correct tool (not the tube one) but makes no sense to do it that way. Take the pump out. overhaul, refit. The bottom return springs are a problem area, so clean and check there as well. Good luck. | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 173 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks Brian and Paul for the suggestions. After study I understand why the pump tool is made as it is: to clear the intake manifold so the rear pump can be removed and replaced without removing the manifold. Regards all, RR | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 362 Registered: 5-2012 |
Randy I strongly recommend you measure the new O-rings before fitting them in the pump. They must be within a few thou of the size stated in the AS568 standards. Do this even if you purchase a reconditioning kit - I was caught out on this when I reconditioned my ACV's. Geoff | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 363 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian I have been unable to find your compilation of the correct O-rings for use on the hydraulic systems. I thought the list was included in your resource file but was unable to find the relevant section. Could you re-issue the link to it for us. Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2009 |
Geoff, I understand completely; we see the same thing "in industry". This might explain some of the situations in which pump overhauls including ring replacement, either do not fix the leak, or even begin to leak. Of course, the pump housing can be pitted or scratched and keep the O-ring from sealing, in which case it can be sleeved, and there can be assembly error. Of course, the O-rings need to be EPDM and not nitrile, another possible error which can lead to leaks. Neither of my Car's pumps leak now, though no doubt it has been years since they were serviced (if ever). That is about to change. I am slow, though. I am going to get things apart, to see if I can overhaul or if I need a new pump, before I buy parts. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 739 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, The documentation regarding the hydraulic and brake seal kits I've had in hand and done measurements on are on Google Drive in this document: Rolls-Royce & Bentley SY Series Brake/Hydraulic System Seal Kits If anyone happens to have an RH2436 Height Control Valve Seal Kit that they could check against my measurements I would appreciated it. I know that the Quad ring is correct, as I had those custom ordered and have used them. I made a mistake on one or more of the original O-ring measurements (and can't remember which) and have since corrected those, but one more set of eyes and a caliper on this particular set would be most welcome. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 740 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Am I recalling correctly that you actually had an incorrectly sized (not just wonky example of the correct) o-ring in a Crewe Original kit? I've now done 3 ACVs with the o-rings I purchased to match the specs in the document I posted a link to and have had no problems. FYI to the cohort, I have non-Crewe-Original seal kits already put together that I've used and that do work. At this point I would be happy to supply them to anyone who wants them for a couple bucks for postage. I've got more than I could ever use for 10 cars, let alone the 2 I actually have. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 364 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian I bought my reconditioning kits off a well known third party supplier who I normally get great service and parts from. I do not believe they were Crewe originals. Both ACV's failed after a few hundred miles. When I removed the O-rings they were not damaged in any way, but on measuring them they were way off the AS568 standard, to the order of 20 - 30 thou. At first I thought RR were using non-standard O-rings by design, or the cars pre-dated the standard. You corrected me on both points. Since fitting the O-rings you kindly sent me I have been leak free after several thousand miles. Geoff. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 97 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Randy check out this video clip, there are a number of clips on brake pumps by the same guy on same topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFok3OLFzxs hk | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 175 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hubert, thanks for the link: those videos are really informative for me as an amateur. Almost everything I do is for the first time! | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2998 Registered: 4-2003 |
Boy, those videos make heavy weather of a straightforward job. Interesting that he calls the outer housing expensive, and is prepared to refit a dud corroded one. Here, we toss the old outer housings out as new ones are relatively cheap compared to the pushrod which he replaces as routine. Worksghops especially don’t like reusing old housings as the incidents of warranty claims for leaks was costly un the past. The pump outer housing, UR70427, now fits all SY cars from about chassis 12500. That means it is correct for SYs with a feed pipe o-ring and all SZ cars. It is chamfered at each end so it fits both front and rear pumps on the SZs with the front pump housing inverted compared to the rear. They have been a real hit since the price came down. RT. | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 176 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have my Official Rolls-Royce removal tool on the way. I'm going in... Although the rear pump, isn't, there is no evidence of leaking from either pump. I will replace the feed hoses and Jubilee clips and it will look nice when I am finished. RR363 will probably leak everywhere when the rear system pressures up: I don't think the rear pump has worked since before I assumed responsibility for SRH9391. It will be a thrill to have both red warning lamps out (not to mention: having confidence in the brakes). | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 751 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, Take my advice and do NOT use RR363 during the repeated "flush and fill" cycles that will likely be involved before you're ready to pronounce her "cured" and take her out on the road. It is incredibly simple to flush these systems given the active pumping, so you can purge the regular DOT3 (or YAK363/OMAR363) you use during the working period. It saves you a fortune in fluid, and Crewe even allowed for driving with regular DOT3 for brief periods if RR363 were unavailable when a refill was needed. You may also want to read through Flush and Bleed Your Silver Shadow/Bentley T Hydraulics/Brakes the Easy Way, which is my extended write-up of the technique originally offered by Richard Treacy. Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 177 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi, Brian, I understand and agree. My car's system is pretty clean, already: it was completely flushed by the RROC "Weekend Team" at Headquarters, before I assumed responsibility, and I have flushed at least the front system once since, when I overhauled the calipers. I don't know what I might run into with the rear system and the levelling, though... I'll see. I have been studying your excellent bleed procedure as well. Regards, randy | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2009 |
Update: I got my pump removal tool, got the carbs and distributor out of the way, then ran into the outer pump housing. I barely turned it a bit with a slip-joint pliers; now what? How to slide it off the O-rings? Saw it off? Break the intake manifold while prising on it? Nope; gotta be another way. Got my socket on the pump outlet fitting, my long 1/2 inch drive rachet, and... Aha! the entire pump starts unscrewing. Great, but the housing inlet has hit the intake manifold; now what? Well, it will turn on the O-rings, so I kept unscrewing the pump, and housing slipped on the O-rings, and got the thing out. Success, but I was looking forward to using my new pump tool. Anyway, I eventually got the housing off the O-rings, then used the tool in the vise ala Bill Coburn in TeeOneTopics, to remove the outlet fitting. All in all, a very satisfying couple of hours. I attempted to remove the pushrod using a magnet, but it did not budge. Hummm; later then. | ||
| Jim Walters New User Username: jim_walters Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2014 |
They sure can be tight Randy, especially on 363 cars. You just have to persevere with twisting it back and forth and eventually you should be able to pull it off. Some penetrating oil helps, water pump pliers with tape wrapped around the jaws help too. Sounds like you got it anyway, good luck with the front one. SRE22493 NAC-05370 www.bristolmotors.com | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2009 |
I also warmed it with a hair dryer, which seemed to help. Once I got the pump out in the open, so to speak, I got the housing off eventually. What do you think about the pushrods? I am going to bar the engine and if they go up and down, leave them alone. At least I know the front pump works.I understand my car SRH9391 did not originally have the waisted pushrods. I doubt it has been modified, just as I doubt these pumps have ever been apart. There appeared to be a good daube of grease where the pump screws on; would that have been to lube the pushrod where it pushes on the pump plunger? Anyway I'm having a great time! | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Randy don't Know if you managed to see this clip by same guy as clip earlier, anyways....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7nC8LXy5_Y hk | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2009 |
HI, Hubert, I did find this one; thanks for checking, though. As for my project: I did not find anything in the pump which would cause it not to pump, although it was not perfectly clean, I found no corrosion, broken parts, etc. but it does look like it may not have been serviced in years. I did not find a small o-ring on the lower end of the pump, but there was some black goo so that may have been the remains.. I barred the engine round while observing the pushrod and it did not move a bit, so something is wrong "down there". I was hoping for better, but there it is. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 370 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Randy In case you have not seen them before, this what the cam follower and housing looks like:  As you can see, they do get gummed up, which may be why you are getting no movement when you crank the engine. You could try freeing it with release fluid. It is not too big a job to remove the cam follower and housing - just remove the carbs, inlet manifold and tappet chest cover. Worst case scenario is a badly worn cam lobe, but most probably the cam follower has just become jammed in the housing. Geoff | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 187 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks, Geoff. About my pushrod: the end is flush with the round protrusion in the holder. I am going in, as we say: I have positioned the refrigeration compressor out of the way, and I only need to drain the coolant to get the manifold off. Right now I have it parked against the curb in the garage, so I am determining the proper fuse to remove to disable the fuel pump, so I can reconnect the battery, and get her out of park to roll her back a tad. I would never attempt this without the support of my fellows in the Forum. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 371 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Randy If the pushrod is flush with the end of the housing then it could be it has snapped, as per it's spec. Will be interesting to hear what you find in there. Geoff. | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 188 Registered: 5-2009 |
Update: I began a little after 3:00 PM today, and I was all the way in by about 4:30. Good news: the cam lobes all look perfectly smooth (but I have to bar the engine around to look at all of them) and it appears that I have a broken pushrod. The ends of both cam followers are perfectly smooth. There is no visible gooey sludge in the cam valley, although it is coated black as a politician's heart. That front pump was tight; I don't know I would have been able to get it loose with the special tool. It unscrewed via the outlet fitting so I went with that. One question: there is a nut with a small stud in the center, right behind the water pump and in front of the valley cover. There was nothing there, although it looks like either an electrical terminal or an attachment point for a tube support; something like that. Any idea what it is? One surprise: when I removed the thermostat housing: no thermostat. Also three of the four bolts holding the housing were wrong: one size larger. | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 189 Registered: 5-2009 |
Confirmed: broken waisted pushrod. It is broken right in the waisting and is corroded all over the waisting. I finally got the broken end out of the cam follower. The follower was filled with gooey black semisolid grease, almost tar. I can also see why the pushrod housings were modified later: both of those on my Car are almost completely gooed up at the top where the oil is supposed to go in. Now I need to get the follower housings off the valley cover, and I can't find a wrench that will fit the bolts. I am going in the manual to see if this is mentioned. I stopped for the evening, and I am trying to get the black stuff off... | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Randy Great work. Quick too. Pleased to hear the camshaft is ok. I had no problem with wrench size to remove the housing from the valley cover on my car. It was well over a year ago now but as I recall I used a 9/32 (or was it 13/32). Anyway, the point is that these old UNF bolts often need an n/32 SAE wrench, as I recall. It doesn't surprise me you have 3 oversized bolts on the thermostat housing. It is so easy to over tighten the bolts and strip the soft aluminium threads. Looks like careless previous owners have done just that and re-threaded for oversize bolts. Be very careful when you bolt the inlet manifold back on - same applies. Geoff | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1176 Registered: 6-2006 |
Randy, the bolts should be 7/16. They should have lock tabs on which is probably why your spanners don't fit. ? Or perhaps they are just caked in gunk! Sounds like a typically engine oil change neglected car  Minimum Oil changes should be done at 6000 miles OR every 12 Months regardless of mileage. Imperative. Please post a photo of the bolt. | ||
| Randy Roberson Prolific User Username: wascator Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2009 |
I am trying to develop a list of needed parts and I have some questions, mostly due to my inexperience: My Car SRH 9391, has the waisted pushrods, but the old-style follower housings without the cutout. The parts look exactly as in Geoff's photo above. I also found a portion of a plastic or rubber ring associated with the cam follower when I pushed it out of the housing: is that UE 36218 "Ring-Retaining-Cam Follower"? |
