| Author | Message | |||
     Robert Gardner Experienced User Username: bobg Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2012 |
To some, this may seem like a silly question: My Shadow, LRA13020 is a 1972 model. Is it considered an early or late shadow? I am trying to fix an issue with my interior lighting, The map light works via the switch near the glove box, and the reading lights in the rear seating area will also operate using the respective switches, but in one position only, either on/off, If I recall correctly, at one time they would operate in all positions allowing both lamps to illuminate simultaneously. I guess my first question would be pertaining to the rear switches, do all positions on the switch operate on the same circuit? (interior light vs reading light). As to being an Early/Late model Shadow: In my service manual Pub:TSD2476, It states that earlier model Shadows have an Interior Lighting Relay located somewhere on the bulkhead in the engine compartment up near the Wiper Motor somewhere, Could this relay be the source of my lighting issues? (no lights operate with doors open) even with headlight switch pulled outward, I am trying to find out if the relay is even there before I go fishing around for it. Thanks in advance Bob | |||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1354 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Robert, As documented elsewhere on this forum, the wiring of individual cars can be different to that shown in the wiring diagrams in TSD2476 for the vehicle serial number. This is an outcome of the Crewe Drawing Office not keeping the diagrams up to date as changes were implemented on the assembly floor. Unfortunately, you have to trace the wiring from the lights/switches back to the fuse board and beyond to determine how your car has been wired. | |||
| Robert Gardner Experienced User Username: bobg Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2012 |
That's sounds like fun, Thank you David.I guess I will start at the bulkhead to see if there actually is a relay there first, I have no idea how to trace the wires back to their connection areas, can't read a wiring diagram, just follow the colors and check for continuity ? | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 686 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is there, however, some chassis number (or narrow number range) that defines the division between "early" and "late" series one SY cars? This designation is used again and again but I have yet to see any direct statement of where "early" ends and "late" begins. I think anyone who works on these cars, and particularly more than one of them, realizes that Crewe indulged in quite a few "on the assembly floor, and on the fly" changes. Brian, who figures this is likely true for any low-production production car prior to the era where pre-assembled major components became common | |||
| Bob Reynolds Frequent User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2012 |
I would say the early cars are the pre-1970 ones with the 6230cc engine and the later ones the 6750cc engine. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 868 Registered: 9-2004 |
Changes were on going through out the start of production with the first shadow 1. The later ones with the real changes if the term can be called that are from SRH 30001 introduced in Feb 1977. I still run both types each have good and bad points. Best of both was the mod I carried out LPG that makes the car more useable with the engine oil keeping clean between extended changes. | |||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2010 |
From what I've been able to determine, the words "early" and "late" in the manuals simply mean "before change" and "after change". The chassis numbers might be (and often are) different for each so-described change. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 688 Registered: 6-2009 |
Well, the terms "early" and "late" were used well before the original series ended and the two-series introduced. They also updated the workshop manual for the two-series. I have always found this designation confusing (and, thus, hated it) because it does nothing to make things more easily understood (at least by me and it appears, others). Brian | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 869 Registered: 9-2004 |
I assume the LRA13020 should be LRH13020 making it an early Jan Feb LWB car. The later LWB came in March 1977 with LRH 30083. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 689 Registered: 6-2009 |
Patrick, LRA13020 is the correct chassis number for a U.S. Delivery 1972 Shadow long wheelbase. I know that the attached file is somewhere out there on rrtechnical.info, but here it is for easy reference. Also, as I noted before, the early/late designation is used in documents created before the introduction of the 1977 two-series cars. Brian
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| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1134 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi yours should have a interior light timer unit which can become faulty. However, your rear lights should still work indepeantaly on the rear switches. The switches should give one side map light or both side interior lights. The dtivers map light should also work independant of the timer delay unit. (pull out the headlight switch) Have you checked bulbs etc? Early cars most people would say are the non flared wheel arch - non compliant suspension cars. late are the flared . Shadow Ii's are the Shadow II's although again you can have Early ( non wash-wipe headlap Switched aerial - balance pipe 1/2 way through exhaust system). | |||
| Robert Gardner Experienced User Username: bobg Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2012 |
Thanks Paul, Our Shadow has the larger engine as well as the non flared arches, this I know because my tires are too big, scraping the well in full turns, Where might this timer unit be located? I remember reading somewhere that there is some type unit tucked away behind the glove box somewhere, is this the unit you refer to? I used to be able to turn on both sections of the rear lights using the switches, and all of the interior lights stopped working at the same time so I am certain that it is not a bulb problem. Thanks so much, Bob | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2960 Registered: 4-2003 |
There were many changes along the series, so see www.rrtechnical.info for the monologue. Significant are compliant suspension in September 1972 (SRH13485 standard cars, nice with crude tyres of the era, but a backward step when tyres improved a few years later) and the deletion of the brake master cylinder in 1975 roughly chassis 22017/22118 (also arguably an even worse backward step). The 6750 SYL lon-strole engine was not a particular milestone at all in December 1969 (chassis 8742). More torque, less sweet, but mainly pushed out to preserve performance in the face of emission controls. Those 6750s without emission controls are the gutsiest RR&B cars before a turbocharger was de rigueur from 1992. So, late is probably SRH13485 onwards. September 1972. RT. | |||
| gordon le feuvre Experienced User Username: triumph Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2012 |
I have been involved with Shadow's from form 1966 attending one of the first 2 week technical courses at Hythe road on the new model. From the outset the term early/late cars seem to have been in use. We sold between 15-40 cars new per year and I recall that every new car was different from the previous ones! I have owned late Shadow 11 with factory handling kit and early (1973) Corniche fixedhead. My personal opinion it is "horses for courses" The Shadow 11 was great on fast roads with little roll and direct steering( not to mention ACU), but the overall feel of serenity that one had driving early cars is lost, the quietness of powertrain, quietly absorbing bumps etc etc. | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 525 Registered: 1-2008 |
A local self-styled 'expert' on RR/Bs has stated to me a strong preference for the Shadow 2 over the Shadow 1. In his case he's said that it's entirely due to the more accurate steering from the use of rack & pinion gear. Having seen the many problems that have been engendered from R&P on more than a few forum members' cars I think I'll stick to my Shadow 1. | |||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2010 |
I do find the later steering to be a big improvement (especially with the Harvey Bailey handling kit). Then again, every time I have to do battle with my ACU, I wish I had a T1.  Cheers, Jeff. | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 526 Registered: 1-2008 |
On the last MOT the tester wanted to fail her due to 'excessive play between the steering wheel and the front wheels'. The damn fool had switched off the engine! | |||
| Mark Aldridge Prolific User Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 120 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jan, if there is a lot of play in the steering,engine off, check the flexible coupling. I had a partial failure on my Shadow 1 which showed up as wander on poor roads at lowish speeds and excess play when the engine was off.The difference a new coupling made was enormous. Mark | |||
| gordon le feuvre Experienced User Username: triumph Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2012 |
As I said I my earlier post, they are two different animals. Really early shadows did not handle/drive well in wet ( with cross ply tyres) but were technically simple (assuming one understood the hydraulics) As the model progressed, it became more complicated. The change to shadow 2 to me was the break point between being able to fix (with some technical knowledge) and starting to need test boxes(the air cond.system) This is not to say that the shadow 2 is not a great animal, it is just DIFFERENT, moving on from everything being able to be sorted in an average garage a long way from dealer/specialist to needing support. On this point the RROC AUSTRALIA has been the very best in the WORLD at sharing knowledge free of charge, unlike the RREC-UK and the American Club. You have my full support and gratitude, having allowed me to rediscover the product through your site. | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1145 Registered: 6-2006 |
Whilst a Shadow II is better when you are behind the wheel . . . I prefer the look of a Shadow I in a dark colour - looks much better with the chrome bumpers. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 870 Registered: 9-2004 |
I just love the drive of the Shadow II compared to the boat ride Shadow I. The steering rack on the Shadow II has transformed the steering to a precise feel and made it a drivers car. Have never liked the plastic bumpers and the new look dash compared to the later shadow I. The spit level air con is way ahead for its day on the Shadow II. Not forgetting course that extra power from the engine due partly to the twin design of the exhaust system and carbs. Oh dear the more one thinks about the differences there are hundreds. | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 529 Registered: 1-2008 |
According to the manual the steering on a Shadow is powered rather than merely power assisted. That's why you should never turn the steering wheel through a significant rotation with the front wheels on the ground unless the car is moving and/or the engine is running. With all that weight bearing on the front wheels it's all too easy to damage the collapsible part of the steering column. | |||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2972 Registered: 4-2003 |
I thought this was about early Shadow and late Shadow. Not Silver Shadow to Silver Shadow II. Early-late was arguably around the time of brake pump changes in 1971-1972. The 1977 SSII is only really a steering and climate control revision, along with earlier US plastic bumpers for all cars and a primitive air dam for show. Significant agreed, SYII rack and pinion steering has always been a great advance in behaviour at the expense of poor reliability.. Turn an SYII or SZ steering without the motor running and it will cause rack leakage and possibly damage. Without system pressure, one side of the rack sealing goes into reverse, sucks air into the system and dumps fluid into the bellows cavity next time. In turn, the air induced causes the reservoir to overflow and dumps fluid all over the place. RT- | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 871 Registered: 9-2004 |
"I thought this was about early Shadow and late Shadow" Early Shadows are stated by Glass's guide car check book [info supplied by Rolls-Royce Motors Crewe cw13pl] as being Shadow I from Oct 1965 commencing with chassis no SRH 1001. These had updates with many dating features up to the introduction of the late Shadow II from Feb 1977 commencing SRH 30001. Prehaps RR made a mistake. PS my rack is the original, the slight weep I had years ago has now stopped, used a wynns additive with a magnet on the reservior. | |||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 531 Registered: 1-2008 |
Glasses' Guide doesn't know what we know. Although they acknowledge the engine change from 6250cc to 6750cc they have little idea of all the little or not-so-little 'creeping' changes that occurred during the Shadow 1's long production run. And I also prefer the chrome bumpers and overriders. To my mind they have much more gravitas than the later rubber ones and match the rest of the chrome or stainless trim. I've even sourced a pair of stainless door mirrors from a late model Jag to complement them. Next year I'm considering taking the bumpers off and having them stripped, polished and rechromed as there's a small but unacceptable amount of rust appearing in a few places. | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 872 Registered: 9-2004 |
"they have little idea of all the little or not-so-little 'creeping' changes that occurred during the Shadow 1's long production run." Two plus pages of Glass's crept in dating feature changes from SRH 1001 to the start of the Shadow II SRH 3001. Intresting reading with the increased engine capacity at SRH 9363 also the introduction of the central door locking and ignition key only removable with the gear selector in "P" radio speakers in each door. The very confidential Glass's listings carry on with all detail changes. Learn somthing all the time, changes from contacts to the Opus ignition that I still run on my Shadow II seem to have been introduced in August 1975 Shadow I SRH 22118 I had always thought that the update was just for the Shadow II. The Shadow II it seems continued unchanged from its introduction apart from SRH 34573 onwards with the addition of the headlamp wash/wipe to the end of that series. They seem to have it right first time! Regarding the chrome bumpers often they rust from behind causing failing with the chrome, if ok a good spray with old sump oil will keep them protected. | |||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Experienced User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2005 |
Patrick Quote: The Shadow II it seems continued unchanged from its introduction apart from SRH 34573 onwards with the addition of the headlamp wash/wipe to the end of that series. They seem to have it right first time! Not quite. The Chassis Number Booklet lists 3 full pages of detail changes for chassis numbers 30001 to 41686 plus another page for chassis numbers 50001 (Corniche & Camargue) to 50776. I tried to count the changes, but gave up, too numerous.... Jonas | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 873 Registered: 9-2004 |
Jonas yes I have omitted many detail changes and just put the dating feature changes. The Shadow I has hundreds the Shadow II has it seems just one. As for the original question I referred to the guide for the LRA vin number and found that no listing for the USA cars so could not help. Have known the cars SRH 13754 onwards with the eight second delay on the internal lights to give problems. also power feed probs. |
SY Series Chassis Numbers