Taking the exhaust system apart (or a... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Australian RR Forums » Silver Shadow Series » Taking the exhaust system apart (or at least some of it) « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 646
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 10 October, 2013 - 08:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, the tear down to get the starter out of SRH33576 has officially begun.

Ah, the fun of trying to take apart exhaust parts that have corroded together over the years!!

I've managed to get the clamp that holds the down pipe on to the exhaust manifold off as well as the U-clamp that holds the pipe into the first muffler. However, the pipe has a "death grip" on the muffler and I've never tried to separate exhaust parts before.

What are the typical "methods of persuasion" for this sort of thing. I can't imagine they're particularly delicate, but I also presume there are some things one does not want to do when trying to separate parts.

Guidance appreciated.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 180
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Thursday, 10 October, 2013 - 08:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

See if you can get it apart enough just separating it at clamp/olive junctions. I never did manage to get some of the slip-joints apart on mine. I was replacing those parts so it didn't really matter, but if you can separate it between the front boxes and intermediate pipes (or even between the intermediate pipes and intermediate boxes), perhaps you can just leave the front sections "whole"?

Cheers,
Jeff.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2923
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 11 October, 2013 - 01:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No persuasional hammers or heavy hardware required. Heating the joint moderately will do. Even a $30 electric heat gun should be enough, but your LPG heat torch should also do the trick. If using a regular oxy-acetylene torch, do use a cool yellowish flame.

RT.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 650
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 01:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It has been raining here for days, and since this is an "in the driveway" maintenance task that put a stop to progress. I'm back at it today.

Jeff, unfortunately, on the right side I have no olive/flange junctions anywhere after the one that connects the exhaust manifold to the down pipe. On the left there is one between the first muffler and the second. I have to believe that at some point the segment in question on the right was replaced with a new piece of "straight pipe."

Richard, I have used a very light hammer just to tap around the slip joint hoping to free up corrosion, followed by a thorough heating session with my propane torch. I presumed I would have to try to "lever" the pipe out of the slip joint, and my local exhaust guy confirmed that this is typically what they do. I'll have to get my wood block collection to create a support pyramid under the muffler so that it remains stable while I try to get the pipe to break free.

If it doesn't, I'll try another round of heating to see if that helps. I'm doubtful that the use of penetrating oil would make one whit of difference for this task, so I haven't.

This looks like it's going to be one of those preliminary tasks that gets ugly to accomplish. I hope I turn out to be wrong.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Prolific User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 03:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian you might have to use a thin bladed grinder to cut a single layer of metal at the joint and if you do use penetrating fluid just be careful if you heat it.

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 651
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 07:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, I've heated and cooled at least 4 times, tried to loosen up the "death grip" after that by sliding the blade of an old, thin screwdriver around most of the circumference of the slip joint (which did result in some lifting) but still, nada as far as actually getting the pipe to move at all.

I've also loosened the muffler clamp on the rear side of the first muffler, but that's not looking to be any more promising than the front joint.

Pictures, in case they help:
Two shots of the front slip joint, now sprayed with penetrating solvent/oil.
Front Slip Joint - Angle 1
Front Slip Joint - Angle 2

One shot of the rear slip joint:
Rear Slip Joint

Any and all suggestions for "persuasion" welcomed.

Mr. Yeaman, I have a grinder with a thin blade and also a dremel with a diamond cut disc (which I once used to cut the nut off of one bolt on the clamp that holds the down pipe to the exhaust manifold.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1342
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 08:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

Patience is a must with the penetrating oil; I have found a 2 to 3 day wait with daily liberal applications of penetrant usually leads to separation of joints like yours. I have found "Penetrene" or "Inox" best suited for this problem.

However, I have also waited a week for this to finally work after wrapping the joint with towelling soaking in penetrating oil covered by "Cling Wrap" plastic film to keep the oil around the joint.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 652
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 08:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Having "been there, done that" with penetrating oil I do understand what you're talking about. I intend to do two heavy doses per day, every day, for several days.

What I can't decide is "how agressive" and "aggressive, how?" I need to get with this task. I'm soliciting opinions on both of the above here and elsewhere.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Prolific User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 08:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian looks like trouble, at his stage I would try and preserve the muffler if you were to cut the front pipe off then use a tool similar to a knife only instead of a blade it has a short hacksaw blade if you cut out the piece of pipe left in the muffler you could either repair or replace the front pipe.

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1343
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

"How aggressive" i.e. as much force as necessary to cause permanent damage somewhere else.

"Aggressive": see above but accompanied by strong language inappropriate for use in mixed company .

Seriously, I have found sub-zero cooling to be more effective than heating as the resulting compression and expansion as the metal returns to room temperature seems to break the bond more effectively than heating. I have used a compressed air spray gun filled with Ether [preferred], Acetone or acrylic lacquer thinner for this purpose subject to the relevant safety precautions regarding fire/explosion and breathing the vapour. I also have a plumber's muff that is used with a cylinder of compressed Carbon Dioxide to freeze water pipes when an isolating valve is not available or functioning. This creates a mass of dry ice inside the muff which then freezes the pipe and its contents. Possibly this would also work and with a great deal more safety however I have not had the opportunity to try it for this purpose - it works very effectively on water pipes.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Chris Browne
Prolific User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 06:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Brian,

If you have loosened or removed the exhaust clamps from both ends of the silencer (muffler), see if you can get a large strap wrench or filter wrench around the very end of the muffler so you don't crush it and see if you can swing on the wrench to break the rust seal. Make sure the pressure from the wrench is taken through the end plate of the muffler as if you try to use it further down the length of the muffler, you will definitely crush it. Also, in your first photo, there looks to be a groove around the end pipe where the clamp has been over tightened. If this is the case, you will have to force a blade in there to loosen the joint first as one section will not slide over another if the joint has been slightly crushed. Good luck.

Kind regards,

Chris
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Prolific User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 111
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 07:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, I have had success with exhaust joints and ceased spring pins etc by "hammering" them with an air chisel with the chisel points reground flat or blunted .ie using the chisel as a percussion hammer. Its barbaric, but the rapid vibration seems to do less damage than a hammer.
Mark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 653
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 17 October, 2013 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks to one and all for your advice.

At the conclusion of the day yesterday I decided to wrap both joints with a bit of toweling encased with Glad Press n' Seal (love the stuff for this sort of application) and soak it with penetrating oil. It's supposed to rain again today, so I'll get a full day and a half of soaking, at least, before I go at this again.

Unfortunately, I do not have an air compressor and related equipment at my disposal here at home.

If nothing gives over the next couple of days then it appears that cutting will be necessary (and I hope it isn't). My gut tells me that Crewe probably used some exotic down pipe that can't readily be picked up at your random exhaust shop.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Prolific User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 131
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Friday, 18 October, 2013 - 01:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian Flying Spares in UK Ur20220P RH down pipe @ 66 approx. plus p&p

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1130
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 18 October, 2013 - 09:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If all else fails and to prevent damage to more expensive boxes, cut at a straight part and get a sleeve to slide over it and rejoin it.

The exhaust shop should have some tubing. Either slot and clamp it or get them to weld it on.

Make sure the cut is in an accessible place if welding.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 654
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 18 October, 2013 - 09:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Thanks. I'm suspecting that the "if all else fails" situation may be the outcome based on `progress` so far.

At least there's a long straight segment of pipe behind the first muffler and prior to the second.

At least I have a grinder with a great cut disc that would be able to make short work (and clean work) of that pipe!

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 655
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 20 October, 2013 - 05:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, a bit of good news (along with a dope slap to my own forehead to report): There is another olive/flange union downstream from where I was trying to take the down pipe out of the muffler.

On the left side, there is an olive union between the first muffler and the second. On the right there is not. However, on both sides there is an olive union just behind the second muffler!! It appears that I will be able to get the clamp undone there and can just drop the system through that point. It may be a two-man job, for a few minutes, but that's all. This is a huge relief!!

Now, the question. It's been clear to me that the final "contraption" that holds the exhaust at its rearmost point is in need of replacement. Being able to compare what this feels like and the amount of movement it allows on the Wraith II compared to the Shadow II confirms this. It seems to be some sort of spring-loaded system, half of which is u-bolted on to the left exhaust pipe and the other half bolted on to the car. On the Shadow II the two parts are able to be separated by lifting the exhaust up slightly, then pulling left; this can't be correct. The respective halves, though rusty, appear to be OK but the connection between them isn't.

Is this some sort of "standard issue" exhaust part, available at your random auto parts emporium, or is it a piece of Crewe exotica? I believe it's the part I've put in the square on the right side of this image from the Workshop Manual, though I'm not positive since I can't decide where they're indicating that part goes.

Exhaust Layout in SRH33576

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 656
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 20 October, 2013 - 07:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The right exhaust has now been dropped from the front to aft of the second muffler.

My system, oddly, has the tiny cross pipe back there just forward of the two second mufflers. I haven't seen any drawings that ever showed it there, but that's how the car came to me.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Chris Browne
Prolific User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 123
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Monday, 21 October, 2013 - 06:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Brian,

It's a Rolls-Royce special part ,I'm afraid and is still available at a Rolls Royce price! Almost 100 from Flying Spares + P & P.
Chris

Kind regards,
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Prolific User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Monday, 21 October, 2013 - 07:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, if the rivets shown on Chris's picture have broken , drill the holes out and replace them with 6mm bolts, with the nuts peened. I have had all of them break on my spirit as a result of the rivets corroding.Also, broken springs can be replaced; old valve springs or clutch springs wiil suffice.
Mark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Prolific User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 134
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Monday, 21 October, 2013 - 08:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mark you just beat me to it, depending what is wrong with the one Brian has it shouldn't be hard to modify to a workable part, My Silver Shadow 1 SRH 19529 had a similar part that was causing my pipe to rattle where it went through a hole in a chassis cross member my local exhaust company made a replacement using a bonded rubber fitting and no more rattles and a very cheap fix.

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2930
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 21 October, 2013 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Note that these parts are not simple exhaust mounts, rather they are precision devices with spring suspension, and incorporate tuned dampers like those supporting the rear end of an SY, the ones often called Brillos. UR19244 and UR19255, they are not expensive and save lots of time and false starts. In other words, they are the correct parts for the application and are availbe easily and at a very reasonable price by any automotive standard. Genuine ones are NOS and well under A$200 locally in Australia, even less in the US no doubt, but quality reproductions (not substitutes, reproductions) are somewhat lower-priced. Bolted on, they will save a lot of bother compared to patching together something that works to a point for a while.

RT.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 657
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 22 October, 2013 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I crawl under the car again today I'll make an exact assessment of what has happened, but based upon my last check the "brillo" material has long ago disappeared. The half of the bracket that holds the "brillo" and spring is still firmly in place, as is the bolt that runs through it. The spring is still there, too. I believe that the other part of the bracket corroded through its bolt hole.

I've got a parts inquiry in with Albers and will decide how to proceed based upon what I hear back from them.

Brian
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 22 October, 2013 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

The cross-pipe moved from the middle to the front on North American SSII's at chassis number 35430. The NA Wraiths started at the front, moved to the middle at chassis number 35430, and then back again to the front at 37187.

But this is a home-market SSII, right? They went from middle to front at 37187.

Cheers,
Jeff.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark Aldridge
Prolific User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 113
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 22 October, 2013 - 07:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, my Spirit was fitted with all new exhaust mounts before I bought it ; genuine or repro I am not sure, it is not clear on the invoice. All of the rivetts have corroded, but the remainder of the mount assembly is as new ( covered approx 40k miles). The problem appears to be dissimalar metal reaction. Certainly if I have to replace any mounts , if the rivetts are aluminium, I would be inclined to replace these before even fitting with UK road salting.
Mark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 658
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 23 October, 2013 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, word is in from Albers:

UR19153 is $183.99 [USD]

Hardly inexpensive, particularly for what it is.

Brian

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Please quote Chassis Numbers for all vehicles mentioned.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: