| Author | Message | |||
     Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 570 Registered: 6-2009 |
On SRH33576 the little retaining clips that are meant to keep the guide rod centered in the tube have never been clipped in place. Since that has not caused any issues that I know of I've left them this way since I don't like to mess with a functioning system. It also made it easy to lift one out to take the two pictures that follow:   I have never been entirely clear about the where and how much of filling these things. I mustn't have erred grievously, since the car has continued to run reliably, but I'd really like to know exactly what I should be doing. guide rod tube in the center and, if so, to its top? Alternatively, is one supposed to fill only the area surrounding that inner tube, and, if so, to the level of the top edge of the inner tube? Or is one supposed to "flood" the thing both in and out and, if so, to what level? Brian, who presumes there has to be someone else out there who wants to know this, too | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1090 Registered: 6-2006 |
Brian, Have you never taken the pot off the carbs? You can only fill the inner tube where the damper piston sits. Any more than that and the oil is just wasted and flows into the inlet manifold. Fill to the top of the centre tube if you like. The damper piston displaces what it needs to and losing any extra. If you feel resistance when you put the damper piston in while the engine is off, you have enough a;ready. Paul who is wondering if the inside of the dash pot is in a worse state than the outside of if, or if somebody has managed to clean the inside without disturbing the corrosion on the outside. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 578 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul, I have never taken anything off of the carbs. Several years ago, before my own DIY phase began, the carbs were doing the not-unusual thing of leaking from the bottom where the gaskets had finally expired. I had someone else do that replacement work at the time (and, partially as a result of that whole experience, decided that the time had come to start learning how to "do it yourself"). I had actually been doing precisely what you said, filling only that inner tube. I'd also been told that if you overfilled that it would end up being sucked away and burned. Brian, who's never felt the compulsion to take anything apart that seems to be working as it should | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1093 Registered: 6-2006 |
So you're saying that they haven't been off and cleaned for years? Is this a different car to the one that is running like crap? Have you taken these off that car? These MUST be cleaned inside regularly. It's part of servicing. If the car isn't serviced it will run like crap. To start looking at exhaust blockages before the basics are covered is completely arse about tit. Always look at the simple things first . . . then work from there. Servicing is about prevention. To not bother doing something because you think it seems to be working ok . . .you are inviting problems. Engine Oil & filter changed in the past 12 months, Air filter definitely clear ? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=506454322727753&set=a.493227054050480.107909.480142005358985&type=1&theater Have you got the Shadow Owners Companion? I haven't read it but have flicked through it a couple of times when customers have left it in their cars. Seems sensible. The workshop manuals assume much more knowledge of mechanics. | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 579 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul Yorke wrote: So you're saying that they haven't been off and cleaned for years? First, let me be clear that the carb photos are from SRH33576, which is not the car with the performance problems. The carbs were, I would presume, off the car and cleaned up sometime around 2008 [the date's hazy now] when the leaky gaskets occurred. I wasn't there to witness what actually occurred as far as cleaning goes. But the car continues to run and run well. Is this a different car to the one that is running like crap? Yes. The car that's running like crap is LRK37110, which had been in the garage for a "long winter's nap" for five years before I took over custodianship. Have you taken these off that car? These MUST be cleaned inside regularly. No, I have not taken them off, but certainly can. The maintenance history I have for the car is an MS-Access database that's too large to attach. I'll gladly e-mail copies to anyone who wants one. The log is not comprehensive but it's got as much information as I could get from the previous owner's widow and from Transco/Bentley High Point with her permission. It's part of servicing. If the car isn't serviced it will run like crap. When one is faced with "revival from the dead" prioritizing, decisions about where to start first, what to even look at, etc., are fraught to say the least. I have got to pick what to attack and in what order. Based on the maintenance history I have ripping the carbs apart did not belong anywhere near to the top of the list based upon available data. To start looking at exhaust blockages before the basics are covered is completely arse about tit. The problem here is that I had an exhaust system that had holes in the piping. That was repaired, and very shortly afterward a "putt putt" sound that had not been there immediately after the repair. I think there's a far stronger possibility of an issue there than elsewhere at this juncture. Always look at the simple things first . . . then work from there. Agreed, but that's sometimes easier said than done. Servicing is about prevention. To not bother doing something because you think it seems to be working ok . . .you are inviting problems. Some things genuinely need regular servicing, others far less so. I'm learning which is which as I go along, and there is reasonable room for disagreement on which is which among mechanics (as I've learned on many occasions). Engine Oil & filter changed in the past 12 months, Air filter definitely clear ? All of the above plus final drive oil and trunnion joint oil (and many other bits - see database). Have you got the Shadow Owners Companion? I haven't read it but have flicked through it a couple of times when customers have left it in their cars. Seems sensible. I do. I bought it years ago. I have to say that this is the kind of post that feels to me very much like a personal attack. I cannot please everyone about how and when I choose to do many service/maintenance projects. Some things that certain individuals insist must be done others put lower on the priority scale. I'm constantly trying to figure out what I think based on a wide variety of data points. One thing that I have learned over my many decades of motoring is that fooling with a fully functioning system that is unlikely to give you problems (and there are a lot of those) is just inviting problems. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is not the same as saying to avoid reasonable servicing and a watchful eye. Brian | |||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1095 Registered: 6-2006 |
Brian, don't take it as a personal attack. Anybody that knows me will tell you that I preach that prevention is better than cure and a 100 times cheaper. It makes no difference to me how you look after your car. I'm more than happy to not even look at your posts, that would make my life easier . . . however I am making my life more difficult by trying to make yours easier. You want to pull the ignition and timing apart fine, but imho taking four screws out, giving a spray with WD40 and cleaning the dashpot and piston is a million times easier and should be done first. You could spend weeks and many dollars rebuilding the ignition system but if your carb is sticking it will never be right. I know you have next to no idea what you are doing and want to plan ahead, but you need to start at the basics. Easy, Free, needs to be done, clean the dash pots. Scope to balls it up about 1 on a scale of 10. Taking distributors apart, adjusting the timing when you have no idea about it. Taling HT leads off . . Scope for ballsing it up about 9 out of 10. There may be nothing wrong with your carbs . . . but that is irrelevant, you still need to check and clean them first and regularly thereafter. http://rrbew.mywowbb.com/forum2/1882.html | |||
| Bob Reynolds Frequent User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2012 |
You can check if the piston is sticking by use of the lifting pin. You should hear it drop with a thud. I have owned SU carbs for over 40 years and never known one to stick. Yes, you will get black deposits, but they don't generally cause any problems. The pistons are constantly moving up and down and tend to be self-cleaning. In my opinion, the ignition system is FAR more troublesome than the carburettors. The only regular maintenance these carbs need is to top up the dashpot and lubricate the linkages. Moreover, there IS potential for doing damage if not done carefully. You could easily bend the needle, or swap components if you don't keep them separate. It may also be possible to put the dashpots back the wrong way round (I've never tried). Any grit around the base of the suction chamber, or incorrect tightening of the bolts, will introduce leaks into the system. On a RR it's also quite easy to drop at least one of the 8 screws into the bowels of the engine compartment, never to be seen again. The job is not a trivial one if not done before. It is certainly not "a million times easier" than checking the ignition. I would not dismantle and clean the suction chambers and pistons on a regular basis; only before doing a tune-up. However, I WOULD clean the carbs out when first acquiring a vehicle, as you don't know when they were last done (probably never). | |||
| Chris Browne Prolific User Username: chrisb Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hello all, The above differences of opinion are what this forum is all about as long as things don't start becoming personal. All contributions are intended to help but I can quite understand people taking offence at the way some posts are worded. At the time the posts are written, it is often a case of getting thoughts down quickly. When read in isolation by someone else, the words can sound a little harsh and personal and people would not say things in the same way if they were speaking face to face. With due respect to Bob, I think the carbs on Brian's car are HIF's which don't have lifting pins to check if the pistons are free. Cleaning of the pistons in the carbs and the inside of the vacuum chambers (do NOT use any abrasives), as well as replacing the carburettor filters, is part of the service schedule and is recommended every two years or 24,000 miles (40,000 kilometres)on Shadow 2's. As long as care is taken when reinserting the needle into the jet and making sure none of the fixing screws are dropped, it is a pretty straightforward job. Kind regards, Chris | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 581 Registered: 6-2009 |
Chris, You are correct that the carbs on both my cars (1978 and 1979 model years) are HIFs. I found that I can print the maintenance log from MS-Access to a PDF file and post it here. I am owner number two of LRK37110, and the original owner had her maintained by Transco/Bentley High Point in NC for the vast majority of her life. Toward the end of her life with him it's obvious that at least one someone who had no clue what they were doing had their hands on her, but she still remained largely "unmolested."
When I acquired her in January of 2012 her last state inspection sticker had expired in May 2007, which meant she definitely hadn't been being driven for approximately 5 years, if not more. As you can see from the log, she had a major service in November 2004, including a full R&R of the carbs. The car had not traveled even 500 miles since that time. Even given that amount of time having passed, given what I do know about her storage conditions and the carbs, that made me put any fooling with them much further down the list than other tasks. The car literally could not be kept running for at least the first year or so that I owned her, but I was busily working on myriad little issues that I knew I could fix (along with "mom issues" not salient here, other than that they tended to put car issues further on the back burner). I finally got her running reasonably well, which came about after lubricating the anti-dieseling and anti-run-on solenoids and getting them working as they should. It appears that one of the major things keeping her from running correctly was that the anti-dieseling solenoid was stuck partially open, even when energized, causing the expected issues. After that was fixed the first order of business was to get the exhaust system attended to. When the various pipes were replaced the car initially ran very smoothly and quietly whether one was standing near the engine bay or the tail pipes. Not too long afterward, she developed a distinct "putt putt" sound from the tail pipes that hadn't been there initially. As all of this has unfolded I've been posting seeking direction (like anyone could have missed that). I've received diverse opinions about what might be wrong and the order in which to try to sort things out. Paul, I want to make clear that I was trying to be very careful to use the phrasing "feels to me like a personal attack" because I clearly know/knew it was not intended that way. That doesn't mean that it doesn't feel that way when any variant of the, "You mean you didn't do [insert personal favorite service/maintenance item here] first?!!," phrasing is used. For me, that always carries subtext that has a, "How could you be so stupid?!!," element to it, whether it is intended to or not. There was a time when I'd go into "high hurt and dudgeon" mode after posts that employ that style/tone. Now I try to step back and let people know how that makes me feel, even if I know that this is not what was intended. Perhaps I could have more artfully phrased my response, as I do not wish to cause offense, either. I value all of the advice and assistance I have received here and anticipate receiving in the future. In the end, though, I have to sift through all the advice I receive here, and elsewhere, combine it with what I do know from my own DIY history and that shared with me by others, and come to my own decisions about how to proceed. That doesn't mean I'm ungrateful for the advice that I don't end up placing at the top of the to-do list in a given circumstance. It just means that my gut and my head are telling me something else is likely more important at a given point in time. Bob, thanks as well for your input. As you now know this car is not in the "never" category for having had the carbs attended to by a facility that definitely knows what they are doing. Brian | |||
| Chris Browne Prolific User Username: chrisb Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hello Brian, You keep similar records to my own and I was advised when I was first looking to buy a Rolls-Royce - service history is everything. If there is no, or patchy, service history - walk away. A good written service record can only add value to your car should you ever decide to sell it. Incidentally, I have just noticed that your car LRK37110 is only 21 chassis numbers from mine which is SRH37131 so they probably went through the factory at the same time. Small world. Kind regards, Chris | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 582 Registered: 6-2009 |
Chris, Now, for another disagreement, though a mild one. I keep thorough service records simply so I can remember what I did and when. There was a time when I might have remembered all this in my head, but that time is long gone. There is a constant drumbeat that you should never buy a RR or Bentley in the absence of a good service history, but the fact is that the majority of cars (and not just RR/Bentley) aren't going to have this. My first car had none, and the second (LRK37110) had a far sketchier one than presented here at the time of purchase. It was only because the widow of the original owner granted permission to Bentley High Point to release service records to me that I have these at all. I think it's great if you are lucky enough to find a car that has a comprehensive service history, but I wish more emphasis would be put on how to do a personal pre-purchase inspection to decide whether you even want to secure a professional pre-purchase inspection from someone who specializes in the particular era of car you're considering. Since so many cars don't have a good long-term service history, and never will have one even if their current custodian begins assiduous creation of a record, we need to stop saying, "don't buy these cars," and instead say, "here's what you need to do before you even consider writing a check if there's little or no history available." It is interesting to think that I've now run into a fellow owner, literally half a world away, whose car was probably being built at the same time as mine was. Brian, who thought Jon Waples did an excellent job with this in his Shadow Evaluation Form which has, sadly, disappeared from his downloads at his website | |||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 857 Registered: 9-2004 |
"which meant she definitely hadn't been being driven for approximately 5 years, if not more." I hope the fuel lines and tank have been delt with first! Some fuel additives Tunap Microflex 973 Petrol System Treatment will in most cases will sort the SU carbs etc out. If they are out of sink from incorrect setup then a major overhaul and full balance tune will be needed! | |||
| Laurie Fox Frequent User Username: laurie_fox Post Number: 100 Registered: 6-2004 |
The maintenance history of a car can be quite useful in deciding when not to do a job. See www.lauriefox7a.me.uk/ledger . Laurie | |||
| Chris Browne Prolific User Username: chrisb Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hello Laurie, What a fascinating record and compiled over such a long period. It's a credit to you and an example for the rest of us to follow. Kind regards, Chris | |||
| Ken Winters Yet to post message Username: ken_winters Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2013 |
Hi Brian To me the "putt-putt" from the exhaust sounds like a dead cylinder. What condition are the spark plugs and plug wires? Are the valve cover gaskets leaking oil on the plug wires? My 1976 S1 SRE23439 has or had some of the same issues. Ken | |||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 583 Registered: 6-2009 |
Ken, Valve covers on this car are bone dry, a welcome change, I might add. All spark plugs were replaced several months ago just before the car became mobile again. The wires all look to be in perfect condition. This is, however, something else to consider. I know what a miss feels like in my Jag when an ignition coil goes, and I have nothing even vaguely like that feeling in this car. When you're standing by the engine bay with the car running everything sounds perfectly fine. It's only from the rear that you hear the "putt putt" sound. Tomorrow she's going back to the exhaust guy for a quick check-over to see if anything might have happened with one of the catalytic converters or the mufflers. It will do me absolutely no good to pursue any of the other avenues presented if the exhaust system is partially blocked, and this is easy to have checked. Brian |
LRK37110 Maintenance Log