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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 519
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 11 July, 2013 - 08:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

. . . is the pronouncement by the transmission guy.

The shop is convinced that there is either nothing wrong, or so little that they couldn't diagnose it under current operating conditions, with the transmission. They explained that a great deal of the issue with the shifts taking forever is that you are pressing on the accelerator far more than would be typical at almost any given speed and the engine is running faster and producing more vacuum, telling the car it shouldn't shift yet. (Or at least that's how I think they explained it.) I've worked with these guys before and I trust their opinions, particularly transmission related opinions, implicitly. I don't know what to make of the subject comment.

This places me in completely virgin territory again, as I don't even know what the above comment implies as far as what I need to dig into next.

Any assistance helping me make sense of today's input, pretty much saying that I need to sort out engine issues first, would be appreciated.

Brian, perplexed but not defeated [the fact that the car actually starts with the turn of a key and runs now is a major improvement on where I started. Now, on to refinement.]
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Neville Davies
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Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, 11 July, 2013 - 06:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian I'm not quite sure what this is about but producing more vacuum actually causes the autobox to change earlier not later.Lack of vacuum causes the box to change later such as when the pipe is disconnected between engine and modulator in doing this it also protects the box as it's purpose is to increase the operating oil pressure at the clutch and servo units, which is also required at high throttle settings to give faster operating times.
Regards Nev
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 521
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 11 July, 2013 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nev,

I could have been "unclear" about what I understood, as I was quite shocked (and, in a strange way, dismayed) to learn this was not a transmission issue.

I know that these guys know their stuff about transmissions and are honest to a fault.

But they did confirm that as far as power goes, there's very little there, even when you floor the accelerator, particularly if you're on any sort of grade at all.

They charged me nothing and said that they really wouldn't even consider touching the transmission based upon what they experienced during their test drive and their long history with THM400 transmissions. Apparently the issue even occurs in reverse if you're on a grade. They advised me to figure out why the engine just isn't delivering power on demand and then, if something seems off with the transmission, to address that then.

I know what it feels like when I hit the gas pedal in SRH33576. It's never felt the same and now I need to figure out why.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 259
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 01:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

I agree with Neville. I suspect, as you mentioned, that you mis-heard them. Here is my take on the situation. Intake manifold vacuum is determined by throttle position and engine revs. If the throttle is closed there is maximum restriction to air flow into the manifold and hence higher vacuum. Higher revs also cause more vacuum, so maximum vacuum is achieved at high revs with the throttle closed. This is typically when you take your foot off the gas pedal at high speed. The reverse is also true, at low engine revs with the throttle wide open, vacuum is at a minimum. This is typically when you start from rest and accelerate quite hard - throttle wide open, revs low. When the technicians at the shop say your have to depress the accelerator pedal far more than would be typical, they are saying that the throttle position is "too open", causing low vacuum which is preventing the upshift.

The most likely causes could be

An air leak into the intake manifold from a cracked pipe (or even the manifold itself).

Tuning drastically out.

This all pre-supposes that the piston rings and valves are in reasonable condition. If they are badly worn then the "suction" from the engine will never achieve a high enough vacuum to enable the normal upshifts. I seem to recall that you have already carried out a compression test so this particular cause can be thankfully ruled out.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 523
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 03:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Thanks for your explanation and input.

No, I have not done a compression test. I have yet to see an engine with only 26K on it, no matter its use history for an "on the road" vehicle that would have bad rings and valves. I'd also expect that if this were the case I should, at a minimum, be getting some significant "blue smoke," and I never have.

Brian, who thinks the tuning is drastically out (and who will check the intake manifold)
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Neville Davies
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Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 52
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 05:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian I would put can in neutral floor the throttle and see if the engine revs went instantly to max.If it did I would then put car in first gear hold and see if I had rapid acceleration when doing same.If no to first test engine tune check.If yes to first and no to second does the car roll freely? If yes possible convertor sprag .If no find out why.
Regards Nev
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 524
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 06:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nev,

You'd have to define "instantly," but I've previously posted this sound file of the engine being revved. This is, of course, sitting in the driveway in park (which is simply neutral with a parking pawl dropped). I have not tried the second, per se, but know that when you try to rapidly accelerate from either a dead stop or when you're moving, but very slowly, you simply don't gain any speed with any speed. When out for a drive all you have to do is hit any grade and the car will not even hold its speed in most cases, even if you keep giving the car more gas. As far as the car rolling freely, I've not tested that, per se, either but it certainly appears to. When I next take it out I'll try these things.

I will be on a "mechanic's break" for the next four days starting tomorrow (Friday, 7/12/2013).

Brian
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Martin Taylor
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Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 07:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

throttle open means less vacuum, higher pressure, throttle closed gives most vacuum or lower pressure. I had a rover v8 that was changing gears badly for this very reason, no grunt so I had a lot more throttle for a lot less power than the transmission expected, in that case it was a very weak mixture caused by a dodgy air flow meter, when I replaced it the car was completely different with the same power at 1/4 throttle as before with my foot on the floor.
In your case as the transmission shop suggests you are probably almost wide open throttle and barely getting out of second if ever.
A lean mixture ( it should miss at idle ) can be caused by a rotted or disconnected vacuum hose that feeds the cruise from the front right cylinder.
You either have a fuelling or timing problem as suggested. Timing can be checked easily with a strobe but do check it is advancing more as revs increase as the weights can cease on a dormant engine or the springs can break, both of which will allow perfect timing at idle and start speed but no forward advance as the revs increase
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 525
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin,

Thank you for your offering. I have only checked the timing at idle when I was doing the carb butterfly synchronization followed by the fast idle and slow idle speed setting to spec.

I'll definitely see what my strobe light tells me once I'm digging in to this again in a few days (and have someone who can hold the accelerator in various positions for me while I do so).

Brian
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Neville Davies
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Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 03:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian I've just listened to you engine download and assuming the throttle is opening fully it sounds very flat,so I guess this is a good place to begin.
Nev
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Neville Davies
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Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 08:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian Just a thought check that the exhaust is not blocked,collapsed silencer or potato? It has that sort of sound.
Nev
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 526
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Nev,

Two more recordings before I head out for a long weekend.

You mention exhaust, and the first is the exhaust sound as I walk toward the rear of the car while idling. I had part of the exhaust system replaced and, at first, things seemed to be utterly silent when I got the car. Now it sounds like this. I never trust my own memory as far as sounds go, and these days there have been "other considerations" going on in my life making memory for "trivia" hard to maintain.

In the engine bay, this is what it sounds like when at idle.

If skilled ears hear anything here let me know.

Brian
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 491
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Friday, 12 July, 2013 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have you checked the kickdown cable for correct adjustment? Many years ago I bought an automatic Ford Corsair for peanuts which wasn't changing gears correctly. A simple adjustment on the amount of slack permitted the box to work beautifully again and the car was used for quite a few years after with no repeat of the problems.
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Martin Taylor
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Username: martin_taylor

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2013
Posted on Sunday, 14 July, 2013 - 09:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Why is it running so fast? If the engine sat dormant for a few years I would check for broken valve springs and ceased valves. Sounds terrible
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 569
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 04:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, I'm back to addressing issues on LRK37110, at least for a while.

I have read the articles entitled, Destroying the Distributor and Timing the Engine in Tee-One Topics, Issue 62.

I've also read section U6 of the Workshop Manual and am confused by a couple of things:

1. In the section Ignition - To time (using a stroboscope), step 6 reads, Release the clamp screw on the distributor and rotate the head of the distributor in the appropriate direction until the correct timing is obtained. . . After adjustment has been carried out tighten the clamp screw and again check to ensure that the timing has not altered whilst tightening the clamp screw. Am I safe in presuming that this is done with the engine running and that you go back and keep checking the timing with a timing light until you hit 15° BTDC, then turn it off, tighten the clamp screw, and check again to make sure you didn't accidentally readjust it when tightening the clamp screw again?

2. In the Distributor maintenance section the statement is made that the thing requires no routine maintenance except that. . . the moulded cover and HT rotor arm should be removed and the spindle shaft bearings lubricated by inserting a few drops of engine oil onto the felt pad. The automatic advance should also be lubricated at this time with a few drops of engine oil inserted through the apertures in the base plate.. Are people following the engine oil advice, or has something else been found generally better (e.g., most people use ATF in the carbs, not engine oil)? They reference a felt pad, but the article on the distributor notes "you might also like to put a little button of felt in the shaft to hold the oil." Was this pad an improvement introduced later?

3. Does one remove the leads from the distributor cap before popping it off or will it simply lift off with all the leads in place and allow itself to be conveniently tucked aside?

4. If my rotor arm is not corroded on as the one in the article must have been, can anyone give me an idea of about how much force it actually takes to tug the thing off of the shaft?

5. Am I understanding that if I'm taking the distributor cap off for simple cleaning and maintenance that the only thing I need to be very careful about is making certain that the rotor arm is pushed back on in the same position where it was taken off (which would seem an easy thing to do, since the engine will not be moved/cranked during the process)? I also presume one needs to have the actual positioning of the distributor cap itself maintained as well if timing is to be maintained (or adjusted from where it was).

I would like to avoid having to manually rotate the engine if at all possible. However, if that's definitely a required part of this process of getting the timing set correctly I'd like to know that up front.

Any other advice about working with the distributor and timing that is the result of hard-won experience would also be appreciated.

Brian, who figures I need to check this timing stuff out before going any further
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 277
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 06:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian

These are the methods I use.

1) The same as you outlined - I loosen the clamp bolt with the engine off. I also move the distributor back and forth a little to make sure it moves freely and then reposition it as it was before I loosened the clamp bolt. I then start the engine and set the timing, which entails a lot of walking back and forth if you are doing the job without a helper. When set, I then stop the engine and tighten the clamp bolt and re-check the timing. If you have a helper it is really useful if they rev the engine from tickover so that you can monitor the timing. As the engine revs increase you should see the timing advance significantly. As I recall timing figures are published for various engine speeds. If the timing does not advance on increased revs it means that the weights in the base of the distributor are faulty, usually seized. Another point to note is when rotating the distributor with the engine running always handle the base rather than the cap. I like to keep clear of the wires as a 20,000v jolt is not much fun. Make sure your leads are in good condition and dry.

2) I use a few drops of engine oil.

3) The cap can be lifted off without removing the leads. In fact if you are not replacing the leads or checking for continuity I would not remove them - just unclip the cap and tie it to one side with the leads connected.

4) The rotor should pull off with very little force - about the same as removing a socket from a socket wrench.

5) The rotor is keyed - you cannot insert it in the wrong position. The distributor cap is also keyed at the point of the clamps. I cannot recall if it is possible to fit it 180 degrees out, but if you are not removing the leads it will be obvious which way round it goes.

It is not necessary to rotate the engine manually if you are using a strobe light. However, I found it impossible to see the timing marks on my car because of all the road dirt on the pulley. I also could not get in to clean it so ended up removing the alternator which gave perfect access to give the timing marks a really good clean. I had to flick the starter motor a couple of times to bring the timing marks into view from the top of the engine.

I too would be interested in any further comments/corrections.

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 278
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 06:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

I should add that when you loosen the distributor clamp bolt, you need to feel a little resistance to the rotation of the distributor, else the rotating shaft will move it when the engine is started. Sometimes the distributor can the stuck even though the clamp bolt is fully loosened. In this case you will need to rotate the distributor back and forth until it is loose and then pinch it up slightly with the clamp so a little resistance is felt.

I cannot think of any reason why the clamp cannot be tightened with the engine running. (sorry for the double negative)

Geoff.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 572
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Thanks for your input. Any time I'm going into new territory, particularly if it's sensitive territory, I'm nervous. Hearing about what others have done that works (or, that has been a disaster) is instructive and, generally, calming.

Brian
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Randy Roberson
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Username: wascator

Post Number: 146
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I will read more carefully, but after a brief scan I suggest checking for a blocked exhaust. If it has a cat convertor, double-check it as they have a reputation of blocking up. If the exhaust is blocked, usually the engine will idle fine but will be somewhat to very low on power because it cannot flow nearly as much air, even with the throttle wide open, because the restriction in the exhaust has the same effect as a closed throttle plate.
Even if the ignition timing is grossly off, if the engine will run it will develop more or less the appropriate manifold vacuum for a given throttle opening and engine speed, but it may not develop as much power and the exhaust manifolds and piping will be very hot if it runs with the ignition badly retarded for very long.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 575
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 01:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy,

This is another factor that definitely needs to be explored, and perhaps first.

After I had my bad exhaust segments replaced the car was, initially, quite silent. Not too much later it's developed a pronounced "putt putt" sound from the rear.

I've been meaning to set up a follow-up appointment with my exhaust guy, and perhaps I should do that first. This has been on my mind, but pushed to the back until recently, ever since Mr. Davies suggested a possible exhaust issue. Given the condition of the system upon acquisition further issues are a distinct possibility.

This car has dual catalytic converters along with all the other mufflers that these cars have. I don't think I've ever seen a more complex exhaust system than is on these cars.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 279
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 02:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

Another thing to check whilst you are looking at timing is that the pivots for the weights in the base of the distributor are not seized. If they are then the timing will not advance with revs causing the type of issues you are experiencing. As mentioned above, a quick check is to hook up the strobe and see if the timing marks advance when a helper increases the engine revs.

Geoff.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1091
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 07:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You must get somebody who knows what they are doing to show you how to do it the first time.

Acquiring facts is easy, acquiring wisdom is a much lengthier task.

Somebody who knows what they are doing, and looking for, will show you in and afternoon. Probably for a couple of beers :-)

Any American V8 will be similar, no need for them to be versed on RR&B.

Looking for things that you can not recognise will take weeks. I applaud anybody that takes on a job that they can do themselves. But you must realise when your limitations can push your car further back instead of forward and your time would be better spent doing a different job.

Put tipex (whiteout) on TDC and the correct mark.

Note that the timing in the handbook and manual was for setting with 5-star fuel not the crappy unleaded fuel we have today - so it will be a different setting.


Paul who knows that first hand instruction is worth weeks of reading books and doing it by trial and error.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 576
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 08 August, 2013 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

I could not agree with you more. The problem is finding "somebody who knows what they are doing, and looking for" that doesn't do it for a living. I've had a few mechanics who are willing to train me (usually by allowing me to watch them do something that I have no idea how to do), but as often as not they can't/won't.

I've often devoutly wished I had "someone else" I could talk to, live and local, about some of this stuff but I don't.

One of the reasons that many of my jobs have taken me so long is that they're first time and I proceed very slowly in an attempt to avert disaster.

I've noticed that someone else used white paint of some sort on one of the timing marks when I was checking this out when adjusting the fast idle and idle speed a few months ago. I only wish that the original setup had been to actually paint all these marks in using contrast paint, which would have made the most sense.

Brian, who values forums like this immensely because they're often my only source of "been there, done that" information
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 280
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 09 August, 2013 - 02:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Brian has beaten me to it. He's made the same point that I was going to. The problem is exacerbated in the US due to the lower housing density, which means fewer people living nearby who might have the required skills and also the fact that Americans don't even wash their own cars, let alone repair them (I suspect this is more the case in the UK these days).

I think asking questions on procedures you are reasonably familiar with is a good practice, as it can illuminate certain issues you may not have considered. When I reconditioned my ACV's and accumulator spheres it did not occur to me that the O-rings supplied in the reconditioning kit would be undersized. 20 thou undersized is not something you are likely to notice when fitting the O-rings, but it's that 20 thou that stops the brake fluid being pumped out onto the garage floor. If I had asked the questions beforehand in this forum maybe someone would have told me to measure the O-rings to make sure they conform to the AS568 standard before fitting them. I think this a good example of how attention to detail, as practiced by experienced engineers/mechanics can save you the pain of having to repeat a job and for that reason why it is a good idea to make enquiries into this forum.

The good news about setting the ignition timing is under no-load conditions (i.e. engine on tickover) you are highly unlikely to damage the engine. If you accidentally advance the timing too much the engine will just cut out. Also, it is a "scientific" procedure in that you set it (initially) to the timing mark on the front pulley. There is no judgement required in the initial setup. The only note of caution I would add is that when you are road testing the car after setting the timing if you hear the slightest hint of pinking, then back off the timing a couple of degrees at a time until the pinking stops. Pinking, which is most likely to occur during heavy loading of the engine e.g. going up a steep hill, is very definitely not good for the engine.

I do agree with Paul. How great would it be to have an expert living nearby who wouldn't mind becoming an alcoholic. This forum is the next best thing. I have to say though, Paul - be very grateful that Brian lives 3000 miles from you and that I live 5000 miles from you.

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 282
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 09 August, 2013 - 03:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

On a related note to the one Paul made on the carburetor thread, it is a really good idea to remove the distributor, clean and re-lubricate it. Just mark the position of the distributor base and also the rotor arm, remove the two setscrews on the distributor clamp, disconnect the low tension wire and carefully pull the distributor out. On the bench, remove the base plate and clean and re-lubricate the weights. When I did this I removed the weights and re-assembled them to facilitate this. When they are reassembled, flick the spindle round to check the weights fly out easily. If your car still uses points, check them for pitting and replace if necessary. When re-fitting the distributor make sure the rotor arm is in exactly the same place as it was when you removed the distributor(which it will be unless you have turned the crankshaft with the distributor removed). Finally, check for pitting on the brass tip of the rotor arm and also on the connectors inside the distributor cap. As always, take plenty of photos. The job should only take a couple of hours and is well worth doing.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 596
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 15 August, 2013 - 07:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, to tie stuff together that was covered here and on the carb dashpot fill level thread. I don't think I've ever induced as much "thead scatter" and "thread drift" in such a short period in all my years participating in online forums!!

Mr. Davies and Mr. Roberson on both suggested that what they heard might indicate a blocked exhaust: they turn out to be absolutely correct!!

I will immediately hasten to add that I do not know if this is the entire problem, but it would have been quite useless trying to explore other avenues if the car could not "exhale" freely.

Took the car to my exhaust guy yesterday describing the change between initially silent exhaust and sudden onset of "putt putt." He said that they would begin by separating the exhaust pipes in front of the first non-pipe item, in my case the catalytic converters, to see if they got any change in performance and, of course, sound. What he found is that both catalytic converters had collapsed/clogged internally. Based on Randy's input here this did not surprise me, particularly given how badly some of the mild steel pipe segments beyond them had rusted out over the years.

I've elected to go the legal and environmentally sensitive route and have them replaced, though with aftermarket cats. Since the shop I'm working with has done plenty of work on Rolls-Royce and Bentley exhaust systems (though more of the pre-war and EPW than modern) I trust he'll select something that will function correctly.

After this is done I'll see how she behaves and continue troubleshooting from there.

Brian, who hopes that none of the things further downstream from the cats ends up being involved
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Bill Coburn
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Post Number: 1517
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 15 August, 2013 - 08:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmm Brian/ I hadn't thought of that foible, (the remembering, not the muffler) a problem with my age! I have twice had a 'cat' car backfire and consolidate the contents of the device to the point where the car would barely move. The last one was an '86 Turbo which was really a case of severe child abuse in the automotive sense. Having worked on almost every bit but the left hand hinge on the glove box lid, this blockage which manifested itself as an extremely hot component, was the last straw so to speak. My advisor solved the problem with the aid of a broomstick and a hammer!

My first 'car' a Silver Dawn had a rear section exhaust pipe that appeared to have been made by a committee comprising a number of six inch sections expertly welded together. I assumed that a previous owner had balked at the price of a replacement pipe and had had made up, a replacement. Years later I found that this owner, who worked at a mine in Western Tasmania (our island State), had fallen foul of some of the locals. Not unlike yourself he found the performance of the car suddenly diminished and the subsequent diagnosis traced the problem to a potato which had been rammed up the exhaust pipe ( the car's NOT the owner's). The sectioned pipe evidence was a repairer's attempt to find the blockage.

Then there was an ancient 'rally' with one of our Branches in Eastern Australia that included a large prewar Phantom fitted with an original primary muffler at least a third of the length of the car. For whatever reason the car backfired and subsequently became very sluggish. Here the explosion had ripped the myriad of baffles in the original component from their corroded and ancient fixings and piled them up like buttered crumpets at the end of the casing and virtually nothing could get through.

Bill, who welcomed this opportunity to bore readers with inane recollections, to avoid having to go out to his freezing garage and wrestle with a Spirit accumulator that some cautious soul had tightened to the point of metallurgical asphyxiation!
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 597
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 15 August, 2013 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

These recollections are not inane, but branches of the "blocked exhaust" topic tree!!

Now, back to potatoes. I gather the one in your recollection of the Silver Dawn was a literal potato.

Now, I'll ask Mr. Davies and the larger cohort: What was being referenced in the question he asked on 12 July that ended with, "collapsed silencer or potato?" I sense that the potato in that question was figurative, but I have no idea for what.

And, Bill, back to you: What is "metallurgical asphyxiation?" [I'm presuming it's the result of tightening to torque figures significantly higher than spec.]

Brian
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Paul Yorke
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Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1098
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 15 August, 2013 - 04:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian - some good news at last! The step forwards are what it's all about!

Keep the faith :-) They are worth it.


Usually, :-)
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Randy Roberson
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Posted on Thursday, 15 August, 2013 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Potatoe: pranksters would cram a potatoe in the exhaust pipe end to block it off and cause trouble. It would either pop out with an obvious effect, or it might be stuck so tightly it would block the exhaust and the car would not proceed.

Glad you were able to find your problem! I see no reason the after market catalyst would not work fine.
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Bill Coburn
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Posted on Thursday, 15 August, 2013 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian/ Metalurgical asphyxiation was the best I could come up with. Lately I have been defeated by Shadow accumulators that would have defied leverages usually applied to the single screw propelling all but the very largest container vessel. The problem with the LHM unit for the number one system on the early Spirits it that one cannot get a chain wrench squarely on the thing to get a satisfactory grip. I gave up in this case and tha last one and took the whole asseembly out. Secured in a vice it still took the addition of an old five foot jack handle to the wrench to get the thing loose.
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Brian Vogel
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Post Number: 599
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Posted on Friday, 16 August, 2013 - 02:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Latest mini-update. The new catalytic converters are in and my garage guy tells me (and this is no surprise) that the car is running *way* too rich and that he thinks he's hearing a miss, but isn't sure. When I first got her running, as reported here, her exhaust was so pungent that it would run you out of the garage. This improved somewhat over time, but I've always thought the exhaust still smelled too "gassy," even for a car with carbs.

At this point I'm having him do a compression test on the car since I don't have the equipment or skill to do that.

I imagine a miss could certainly be due to a bad spark plug, plug wire, or a distributor that needs attention. Any of those would be preferable to a bad cylinder.

If I don't have a bad cylinder then I guess it will be on to learning how to adjust the air-fuel mixture and checking out the ignition. If I do have a bad one the project may be over.

Brian
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Randy Roberson
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Posted on Friday, 16 August, 2013 - 03:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Miss could be caused by rich mixture; could be a fouled plug; be sure the choke is coming off 100%. My choke was set way too rich for our fairly warm winters, and my choke stove pipes were shot. I got them replaced and the choke comes off really fast now.
I still have to get some fine-tuning on my carbs so I am taking Her to a knowledgeable shop in New Orleans 'sometime' but She actually runs pretty good now.
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Paul Yorke
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Posted on Friday, 16 August, 2013 - 03:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Running rich or having any unburnt fuel going down the exhaust will kill the cats.
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Friday, 16 August, 2013 - 04:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

A bad cylinder will not necessarily mean the project is over. If it's a cracked valve, not too much of a problem or expense in pulling the cylinder head and replacing a single valve.

Geoff
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Nigel Johnson
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Posted on Friday, 16 August, 2013 - 05:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My old Merc (1993 280E early cat model) has just failed the MOT. The thermostat, we think,is stuck slightly open and so she isn't getting to 80 degrees. The loop wasn't opening, or closing, I can't remember which. Anyway, she is overfueling, CO was nearly 8.
Weaken off the carbs and she should be OK.
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Brian Vogel
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Posted on Friday, 16 August, 2013 - 06:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the follow-ups.

Paul, I'm aware that the cats will quite literally fry themselves and self-destruct if run for any period of time with significant amounts of unburnt fuel in the exhaust.

Once I've got a verdict on the compression test the first order of business will be trying to get the air-fuel mixture back to where it should be.

Any pointers on the various starting points would be appreciated.

Nigel, this car has HIF7 carbs, and from what I can see so far mixture adjustment is a non-trivial task on this type. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I think we "went through this" just before I stumbled on to the partially-stuck-open anti-dieseling solenoid that was effectively preventing the car from running. I need to do a search to find those earlier threads.

Brian
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Brian Vogel
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Posted on Saturday, 17 August, 2013 - 06:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Latest update: Compression test came back fine on all cylinders. The new NGK plugs I had put in just before the car became mobile were so badly fouled they needed to be replaced.

Resistance on all plug wires tested and found to be fine.

We can still hear "something wrong" in the exhaust and are exploring whether someone could have put the plug wires on to the distributor in the wrong order.

Will still have the task of figuring out the remedy to the thing running way too rich. If there are suggestions as to where to start, and in what order to proceed, suggest away. It's clear that I am going to have to become far more intimately acquainted with my carbs, and will have to service them, but didn't know if I should look at anything else first.

Brian, who should have the car back on Monday
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Saturday, 17 August, 2013 - 08:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

Great news regards the compression on all cylinders.

Check the brass connectors in the distributor cap.

Can't help with the carbs. Mine are the earlier type with the external float chambers. They are really easy to keep in tune, with the help of a Unisyn Carbalancer and colortune.

It could still be a lead. The resistance test is useful but not definitive. I tore out all my leads and replaced them with copper wire leads - I prefer my sparks to be delivered along solid copper wires rather than lengths of sooty string.

Geoff
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Patrick Lockyer.
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Posted on Saturday, 17 August, 2013 - 09:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"We can still hear "something wrong" in the exhaust and are exploring whether someone could have put the plug wires on to the distributor in the wrong order."

Could be an air leak on the induction,
once corrected and only then with good spark plug condition ignition and advance timming can the HIFs be set up.

Folk can get the adjustment of the jets the wrong way round!
To enrich turn clockwise, anti clockwise to weaken HIFs.
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Randy Roberson
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Posted on Sunday, 18 August, 2013 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Remember: the Shadow firing order is different and creates a different exhaust sound from the V-8s most of us are familiar with.
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Patrick Lockyer.
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Posted on Sunday, 18 August, 2013 - 08:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Remember that one carburetter feeds two cylinders on each bank!
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Brian Vogel
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 02:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

OK, latest update.

The car has its new catalytic converters, testing (twice) on the spark plug wires indicates they're OK and we've checked that they are on the distributor such that correct firing order occurs.

I have been warned, and take it very seriously, that I cannot drive the car practically at all with the current really rich condition without destroying the new catalytic converters and completely fouling the new plugs.

The mechanic has suggested this issue could just as likely be caused by an ignition system issue as a carburetor issue, and that is consistent with what's been mentioned here and elsewhere.

So, my question is, should I delve into the carbs first or the ignition system first? The carbs were completely rebuilt (including needle valves and seats) in November 2004, less than 500 miles ago, just before the car went in for its "long winter's nap." This work was performed by an authorized Bentley (then RR/Bentley) dealer that still has an excellent reputation for service on "the old cars."

If there's some way to "test out" which I should attack first please let me know the test.

Brian, taking one day (and project) at a time
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Nigel Johnson
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 04:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian, check the ignition timing statically then adjust the mixture. If still rich I'd whip the carbs off and check the floats. They can leak over time.Its not such a big job. Take your time and label everything.

Regards, Nigel.
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Randy Roberson
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 04:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Agree with Nigel. Most likely culprit=carbs. Also be sure the choke is coming off timely on warmup.
RR
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 04:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Problem with the series 2 Shadow HIF7 carbs is that tuning them is not as straightforward as for the Series 1. The tuning procedure specified in the workshop manual requires the use of a CO meter. The cheapest CO meter I've seen is sold by Gunsons at $220. I see varying reviews of the accuracy of these meters.

How do series 2 owners tune their carbs?

Geoff.
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Benoit Leus
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 06:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I had the same misfire problem on my Shadow II.
I replaced every ignition component possible to no avail. I then rebuild the carbs and tried to tune them myself.
In the end I gave up and had them tuned by a pro. Since the the car has been running smoothly.

So Brian, I'd check the carbs first.

Benoit
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Brian Vogel
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 07:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the input and it's fascinating.

First, there's very little or no change in the sluggishness now that she can "exhale" but there's a distinct change in her exhaust sound.

There seems to be about a 50/50 split on whether it's the ignition versus the carbs. My guess, based on available maintenance history, is that the ignition should be looked at first, but I still haven't settled on that.

One additional data point is that the mechanic tried advancing the timing with the distributor to see what change it might cause. His statement was that it did very little, and the two things that it did do were to speed up the idle somewhat and cause it to hunt for a idle speed and not really settle down.

Brian, off to handle the next Mom-related crisis
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 08:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian

If your mechanic has tried advancing the timing to no avail, then I presume he left the ignition timed with the factory settings, so it is not going to be far out. Hunting for an idle is a definite symptom of the mixture being too rich. My vote is with the carbs.

Geoff.
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Brian Vogel
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Posted on Thursday, 22 August, 2013 - 09:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

A data point about hunting that I did not have before.

I bought a copy of SU Carburetters Tuning Tips & Techniques by G.R. Wade a while ago. I guess it's time to dig into the section on the HIF carb and all the ancillaries like the cold start enrichment device, etc.

Brian, who is also going to have to reset the timing again, anyway

P.S.: I didn't check the recording of the exhaust note before uploading. I clearly held the smartphone too low and directly in the line of the stream. It doesn't really sound like that. I'll try again later.
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Friday, 30 August, 2013 - 07:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all, I have a question re twin points. Is it acceptable/possible to set points on a visual. ie when they spark. when I had my first morris minor this is they way a set them as my collection of garage tools was limited.
Thanks in advance.
hk
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Friday, 30 August, 2013 - 08:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert

Call me new fashioned, but I would definitely spend a few Euros and buy a feeler gauge and correct sized screwdriver. I know there are many stories of how "old timers" can set ignition by sight and balance carbs by ear, but as someone without that level of experience I always go by the measurements, as a start point at least.

BTW: I once owned a 1956 split screen Morris Minor. Great car.

Geoff.
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richard george yeaman
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Posted on Friday, 30 August, 2013 - 08:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert and Geoff.

Call me whatever you like I would spend a few Euros on buying an electronic system, I fitted one to SRH 19529 and it is running better than it ever has since I bought it in June 2011.

BTW: I also owned a split screen Morris Minor and also a Morris Minor traveller (Woody).
Cheers.
Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Friday, 30 August, 2013 - 09:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard

An electronic system is very definitely on my to-do list. I know there are threads on this, but just for the record, what system did you choose.

Geoff
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Friday, 30 August, 2013 - 06:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff and Richard, thanks for the advice.(electronic system is probably the way to go I guess).
hk
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richard george yeaman
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Post Number: 112
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Posted on Friday, 30 August, 2013 - 07:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff and Hubert.
If you go on e bay and type in Lucas 35d8 Electronic distributor kit you will have a selection the kit I got was £49 95 and it came with two different fixing plates the sellers e bay name is lucas-online based in Preston Lancashire UK My car is single point with no automatic advance and retard, make sure you get the correct one for your car these units are inexpensive and fit inside the dizzy cap I hope this helps,

Richard.
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Saturday, 31 August, 2013 - 03:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard

Many thanks

Geoff
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Saturday, 31 August, 2013 - 06:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard thanks very much I was expecting one to cost 5 times that amount.
hk
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Thursday, 05 September, 2013 - 07:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi everyone I got myself a feeler gauge, I have spent about 2 hours trying to set same, no joy as yet.Any advice appreciated.
hk
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Geoff Wootton
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Posted on Thursday, 05 September, 2013 - 07:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert

The main problem is getting the lever of the points to rest on the cam-lobe of the distributor. This requires that the distributor spindle is rotated which is not as easy as it sounds. I once tried to rotate the crankshaft using a socket on the crankshaft pulley bolt but found access on SRX18501 made this nigh on impossible. Maybe having the car on ramps may have helped. The other method is to flick the starter in the hope the engine will come to rest with the cam-lobe in the correct position. Ultimately, you could just flip off the distributor cap, remove the two flange bolts, carefully note the position of the distributor body and remove it from the car. Setting the gap then would be easy.

Hubert, what is the precise problem you are having with setting the points.

Geoff.
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Thursday, 05 September, 2013 - 07:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff, thanks for the above. I renewed the points and condenser last week, prior to that ie last year I renewed the leads,plug,coil,distributor cap, rotor arm and the resistor. The reason I have left the points till now is the fact it has twin point which scares me some what.
I thought I was getting places last evening till I brought her for a spin round the block, rough to say the least and smokey. The car ran better with the old points, though setting them now will be the problem.
Geoff is it ok to set both points to the same gap or is there something more complicated.
Setting the points on a single system appears simpler in theory?
Thanks for you help Geoff, iLL resume play first light and will update progress tomorrow.
HK
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David Gore
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Posted on Thursday, 05 September, 2013 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert,

Many years ago, I had a high-performance Ford Cleveland 351cid V8 engine with a twin point distributor and I found the only way to easily set the points gap was with a dwell meter. Fiddling with a feeler gauge was an exercise in frustration due to the problem of aligning the distributor cam lobes with the points rubbing arm without it moving as you tried to adjust and fix the gap for each set of points. Once you get experience of using the meter and the technique described below, tuning your car will become less stressful and more successful.

I would be very wary of removing the distributor to set the points as you will have to clamp the drive pinion without damaging it to set the points and then properly align the pinion when reinstalling the distributor. The most effective way I found to rotate the distributor cam was to use a socket, extension piece and hinged drive handle [not a ratchet drive as these invariably "click over" at the most inappropriate time] on the head of the crankshaft pulley retaining bolt. Removing the spark plugs makes positioning the cam lobes much easier - a compliant, patient and understanding assistant to slowly turn the crankshaft and stop when directed also helps. The assistant is also needed to turn the engine over when setting the dwell for each set of points and then checking the dwell when both points are functioning.

The actual procedure for setting the points is given in the section for dual-point distributors on the following link:

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/points.htm

Hope this helps.
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Paul Yorke
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Posted on Thursday, 05 September, 2013 - 04:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

HK,

Treat it as two separate single point distributors.

make sure the new points faces are clean. They often come with oxidisation or oil on which must be removed.

Usually when changing points, you replace the spark plugs. While the plugs are out, turning the engine to the correct position is much easier.

Spin it until one is on the tip of the cam and set it. Spin until the other is at the top of the cam and set it. If plugs are fitted, flick the starter until it stops at the correct place. Tiny flicks with a break between each to let compression die off helps.

Put a smidgen of grease on the inside of the cam follower. Make sure the felt pat is oiled. Make sure the spindle and bob weight mechanism is oiled.
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Friday, 06 September, 2013 - 05:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David and Paul, thanks so much for both your contributions. To give you an update, I have been working on the car almost 8 hours today. it nearly drove me crazy. Anyhow Spent hours trying to get it to start, I then thought it might be a fuel source, started bleeding system, located pipe with twist , toward front of car replaced same, petrol to both cabs.. Thoughts of selling her played out. When I replaced the points I also replaced the condenser, to cut a long story short, I replaced the old condenser noticed the point spark to be somewhat more brighter that before(I reckoned I was getting some where). It ran a bit rough so I had one last go. The points had been adjusted several times with the gauge still rough. How I solved the problem(don't try this at home)put my head under the bonnet with a old garment over me, to make area round distributor dark and adjusted the points manually, it was probably just pot luck. I set them so the bright spark matched both points and bingo, the car has never ran as well, fluke I guess.
A big thanks to ye all for all your help!!!!!!!!!!

PS I hate ignition work!!!!!!!

hk
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Bob Reynolds
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Posted on Friday, 06 September, 2013 - 06:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

How can you measure the points gap by looking at the spark? Surely you'll see a spark whatever the gap is.
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Friday, 06 September, 2013 - 07:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob, believe it or not, its true, but I did ask the god's for help, so that might be the answer. Somethings just can't be explained I guess, but she runs real nice now, long may it will last.... hopefully
a few years.

HK

PS the spark is a quite defined spark when compared to the regular spark omitted if ya get what I mean
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Geoff Wootton
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Post Number: 324
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Posted on Friday, 06 September, 2013 - 08:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert

I was under the impression that the points are not meant to spark. That's what the condenser is for. The sparks must have come from God's hand. You have an unfair advantage over us mere mortals who have to rely on feeler gauges and dwell meters.

Geoff.
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Friday, 06 September, 2013 - 08:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff,
I thought the feeler gauge, was to just give one a guide, ie a standard operating measurement sort of thing. To be honest, with me, the points always give tiny sparks. I have always found if you don't have spark at the points more often that not , the car wont start. Now Geoff I am no expert.
Geoff thanks a million for your input to question i posed last night.
I guess its my complete and lack of understanding, of ignition systems, that leads me to find a way that works(spark) though not scientifically tested(proven)?.
hk
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Geoff Wootton
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Post Number: 326
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Posted on Friday, 06 September, 2013 - 09:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert

I was joking about the sparks - the condenser comes into it's own at higher revs and helps to stop pitting of the points. It occurs to me that these old cars may well have more than a little play in the distributor spindle, making it very difficult to get precise measurements of the points gap. If it's working, then great.

Geoff.
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Hubert Kelly
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Post Number: 92
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Posted on Saturday, 07 September, 2013 - 02:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff, thanks for all that, I had on idea what the actual purpose of a condenser was. In saying that, should a car start without a condenser?
hk
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Geoff Wootton
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Post Number: 327
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Posted on Saturday, 07 September, 2013 - 03:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert

Yes, the engine will run without a condenser. Problem is, when the points start to open the current in the circuit is looking for a ground and finds it by jumping the points gap. This causes pitting of the points and consequentially much shorter life of the points. The condenser offers another path to the current when the points start to open, preventing the arcing. By the time the condenser has fully charged, the gap of the points is too large for the spark to jump across. The whole setup - primary winding of the coil and the condensor form a tuned LC circuit whose values are chosen for optimum damping of the spark when the engine is running. Hence when you are just turning the engine by hand the revs are too low to prevent the spark that you see.

I should add that since the condenser produces much cleaner switching, without it the engine will run noticeably less smoothly.

I invite any corrections to the above.

Geoff
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Hubert Kelly
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Posted on Sunday, 08 September, 2013 - 05:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Geoff, thanks again for the above. I was in the capital today and bought an automotive digital multimeter from Maplin's it says it has a dwell function which may be beneficial in the future to set dual points.
hk
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Neville Davies
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Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 10 September, 2013 - 05:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert In the late 60's I made a number of sleeves which allowed me to fit and set points no feeler or engine turning.You need to have or access to a reasonable metal lathe.Measure the max diameter across the distributor cam. you then need a piece of round hard brass or steel at least 0.250" larger in diameter and long enough to make what will look like a cotton bobbin about 1" long when finished.Bore the piece with a hole 0.0015" larger than distributor measurement.Turn the outside of the rod to the bore plus about 0.225" Leaving a rib at both ends (about 0.125"for protection only and about 0.750" apart)carefully turn the centre of the bobbin to the bore plus twice the points gap obviously the wall will be thin so care is required. Then part off bobbin.The bobbin should now fit over the Distributor cam snugly and the points fitted with the heel against the bobbin and closed.Tighten the fixing screw and remove bobbin hopefully job done.
Regards Nev
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 94
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 12 September, 2013 - 02:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Neville, thanks for the above, Im afraid that discription is a little beyond my capabilities, unfortunately .
hk
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Patrick Lockyer.
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Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 862
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 12 September, 2013 - 04:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It will not work correctly.
Does not take into account of the dwell angle that should be set 31-37 or 26-28 for emission control.
Use a strobe to finish advance settings!
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Neville Davies
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Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 56
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, 12 September, 2013 - 05:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Patrick Whilst I agree it does not set dwell angle it does allow an accurate setting of the points quickly and removes the need to turn the engine and have the points heel in the right place on the cam .If there are two different dwell settings for the same distributor then there must be two different points gaps and generally the dwell will be within tolerance if the gap is accurately set.I agree that checking the timing is well worthwhile though.
Regards Nev
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Patrick Lockyer.
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Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 863
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, 13 September, 2013 - 05:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Neville The contacts can be set to the fitting spec however in most cases the dwell will need to be set, more so as the cars age with wear to the distributor shaft, cam, bearing causing the dwell reading [at different RPM levels 1500 and return to idle] to be out but not more than 3 degrees.
Gap setting to correct the dwell is of extreme importance using a strobe timing light at idling speed to start etc.
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 54
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Friday, 13 September, 2013 - 02:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Neville's device will work correctly. Although it's hardly worth making, now that dwell meters are so cheaply available. It was a different situation in the 60s.

The dwell angle depends solely on the points gap and is nothing to do with the ignition timing. Setting the points gap correctly will give the correct dwell angle, whatever the ignition timing. But it is much easier, and more accurate, to measure the dwell angle on a meter with the engine running than it is to fiddle about with feeler gauges and trying to rotate the engine by hand.

This measurement is totally independent of the ignition timing, which is set up with a strobe light.
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 328
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 13 September, 2013 - 04:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I absolutely agree the dwell angle depends solely on the points gap, however on the early Silver Shadows the points gaps can only be adjusted by removing the distributor cap, meaning the points can only be set statically with a feeler gauge. So "Neville's sleeves" still have relevance for early SY-I owners. The later single points distributors have the external adjusting screw which makes setting the points so easy - hooking up a dwell meter and making the gap adjustments whilst the engine is running.

I understand the principle of the sleeves that Neville used to make, however I do not understand the statement " the bore plus twice the points gap". Surely it should be equal to the points gap. Whatever the figure, it's a pretty mean piece of lathe work to get the wall thickness that thin (25 thou)

Geoff
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Neville Davies
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Username: nev_davies

Post Number: 57
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, 13 September, 2013 - 05:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff.The overall diameter plus twice the points gap is because when the points are set the gap that they set to is only the thickness of the sleeve which is actually half of the increased diameter.The majority of distributors had points which screwed solidly to the base plate and this tool allowed fitting and setting without turning engine or using feelers was quick and accurate the only external adjustment was fine tuning of the timing.Usually then the dwell was within tolerance when the tuner was connected exceptions usually were worn heels or poor quality points.
Not a problem with electronic ignition and computors.
Regards Nev
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 55
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Friday, 13 September, 2013 - 08:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You can still use a dwell meter to set the points, even with the distributor cap off. You just spin the engine on the starter motor. It's more accurate than using feeler gauges. You take a reading, adjust the points gap, then take another reading, until you get the correct dwell reading.

I don't think many distributors do have an external adjustment. The RR one is the first one I've encountered, but I've always used a dwell meter. To be honest I'm not a fan of the external adjuster, as I suspect that the points go out of adjustment quicker than if they were bolted down to a solid baseplate.
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Randy Roberson
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Username: wascator

Post Number: 160
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, 13 September, 2013 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Interesting discussion!
Back in the 1960s I recall the GM distributors had a little door which one could slide up and fit a tool inside and adjust the points. The Chevrolet V-8 distributor was on the rear of the engine, and it was somewhat hard to access.
SRH9391 ran very poorly until I got my new dwell meter. She has the external adjustment: when I saw the points were barely opening, I don't know how She ran at all. As I made the adjustment She smoothed out and the difference was very noticable.
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 15 September, 2013 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Installation of Ignitor Electronic Ignition last post on 07 April 2013 interesting utube Video.

Richard.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 115
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Saturday, 07 June, 2014 - 07:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all, I have just installed a electronic ignition to my 1968 twin point distributor, I followed the instructions closely.
1. removed condenser and points
2. Established the + and - terminals of coil( as a matter of interest the ignition line came to the negative side of the coil , while this company insists the ignition line goes to the positive side.
3. Applied pastE
4. I checked ohms of coil 4.5 that seams ok as per guide
5. Attached wires correctly as per guide
6. Waited to hear the car start with the first dig of the key............NOTHING

Now the car has a ballast resistor which is now connected to the positive side of the coil(IT WAS CONNECTED TO THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF COIL PRIOR TO INSTALLATION OF NEW IGNITION) , the literature suggests if the voltage is below 9 volts it may affect the module, might this be the problem?.
Tomorrow Ill attach a 12 volt wire to same to rule this out .
Any advice welcomeD?. Thanks in advance.
Fingers crossed it works, I don't want to attempt to set the twin points again, last time it was a fluke .
Regard
HK
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 166
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 07 June, 2014 - 08:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert There could be a couple of things you might have to check when you fit these electronic ignitions you may have to check the timing and also the ballast resistor is no longer needed with these systems this is my findings from my own experience when I fitted electronic ignition to my own car SRH19529 hope this helps.

Richard.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 116
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Saturday, 07 June, 2014 - 08:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, thanks a mill for that, ill try same tomorrow, hopefully Ill have good news to report back. Regards
HK
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 96
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Saturday, 07 June, 2014 - 01:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The ignition wire should definitely have gone to the Positive side of the coil, and the contact breakers to the Negative side. So it looks like your coil has been connected the wrong way round. This would result in a much less effective spark at the plugs, and accelerated plug wear. It's a pity you didn't notice this before, as it could explain a lot!

You don't say which electronic ignition system you fitted, which makes it a bit difficult to give specific advice! Generally speaking, electronic ignition systems don't use ballast resistors. You don't need to attach a 12v wire to the coil, just short out the ballast resistor. That is the supply you will be using anyway.

The ballast resistor should be shorted out by the starter relay when you start the car (assuming that it's wired correctly). So the fact that the car didn't start probably means that the ballast resistor is not the problem.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 117
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Saturday, 07 June, 2014 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bobs, thanks for your input, its a power spark unit from simonbbc.com. I have spend about 3 hours trouble shooting the guidelines from there web site support but no joy. I have put back condenser and points and car starts fine. This car has had new leads, coil, ballast resistor, distributor, all within the last few years. Ill contact the company direct on Monday and explain my case.
Many thanks, Bob and Richard
Hubert Kelly
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Omar M. Shams
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Username: omar

Post Number: 398
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 08 June, 2014 - 03:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have had a couple failed units from this vendor (not for RR/bentley conversions however). I have replaced the kits with ones from another manufacturer and we had ignition.
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 167
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 June, 2014 - 03:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert it is critical that you don't accidentally put the wrong wire on to the coil even for a second as this will kill the unit it happened to me the first one I fitted.

Richard.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 June, 2014 - 07:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Omar and Richard thanks for that. I bought a dwell meter last year from maplins I tried to set points using it.
1. I set one set of points to .o16in
2 I the placed the black wire of the meter to a earth source and the red wire to the "point contact" wire of points I moved this set back and forward however the meter stayed a 45, it actually went to 45 when I turned the machine on.
I might try another company for a electronic ignition...
Thanks guys
HK
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 119
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 June, 2014 - 07:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi everyone , last night had a eureka moment, I read over the above txt, watched youtube videos on dwell, I finally understand what David and Paul had explained on 5th September 2013. What confused me was the whole dwell thing. It actually appears quite simple(simple when ya know how)
1. Set the points as Paul had mentioned above as individual unit
2 . Using a dell meter attach black wire to a ground source and red to the negative of coil(this
I didn't know) this will give the Dwell angle eg 33.
3. If the Dwell is outside of the normal ranges as per car guideline..
4 Adjust the point gap(reduce the point gap to increase the angle if the reading was to low and increase the point gap to lower the angle if reading was to high.***(this is my interpretation of how to set twin/dual points so hopefully someone will verify same)***
Thanks to all who explained this to me last September, apologies for taking so long to understand this topic
Many Thanks
Hubert Kelly
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 97
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 June, 2014 - 07:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert - this is a response to your previous message.

A dwell of 45 means that the points are not breaking at all. 360 degrees divided by 8 (cylinders) = 45.

So either you connected the meter up wrongly, or the points were short-circuit. By making and breaking the contacts manually by hand you should see the meter go to either 45, or zero. And then when the engine is running it will settle down somewhere between those 2 extremes, depending on the ratio of make-to-break timing .

Because your coil was connected the wrong way round, it is likely that you unwittingly connected the meter to the wrong terminal on the coil. It should normally go to the -ve terminal, which is the one that goes to the contact points; but in your case it would have gone to the 12v supply. So your meter leads would have been connected to 12v and Earth. This would explain the fixed 45 degree measurement (the maximum you can get with an 8-cylinder engine).

Now that you have connected your coil the right way round, it would be worth doing the dwell measurement again.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Sunday, 08 June, 2014 - 08:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob, thanks for that, you are right I connected the dwell meter incorrectly early last night(I actually placed the red wire to the wire attached to the points .) this would have been to the +ve as apposed to the -VE side of the coil. Thanks for explaining how the 8 cylinder has the 45 Dwell(didnt know that).
Thanks very much for all your help Bob, I shall report back probably late tonight fingers crossed all goes well.
Many thanks
Hubert Kelly
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 121
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Monday, 09 June, 2014 - 06:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob thanks for your help earlier, however I think the dual point system is beyond me. I tried at .16in per set adjustment initially , dwell all over shop... car running roughly. Adjusted down(point gap) per set of points to .014 etc etc. In the end I had to revert back to my strange way of setting the points on a visual I adjust both sets together until the spark is equal both sides. I no it s no way to set points. Anyhow Ill have to go electronic even if I have to get new system. As a matter of interest can a twin distributor be swapped for a single point unit , thanks again
Hubert Kelly
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 122
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Monday, 09 June, 2014 - 08:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Update have just ordered another electronic ignition and coil....lets hope success this time round. Will update progress in a weeks time
HK
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 123
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 17 June, 2014 - 07:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi everyone, electronic ignition and coil fitted and car running. I reckon the timing might be out every so slightly.. but that is for another day.. I am delighted to have has same running. Many thanks to everyone for all your help including Anthony Fernandez for your P.M.
HK
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 168
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 17 June, 2014 - 08:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert that's good news and an other job well done.

Best Regards.

Richard.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 23 July, 2014 - 06:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi everyone, quick question.. as you read from above txt I fitted a new electronic ignition last month, it works fine ie travel 30 miles no problem, however on a return journey it acts strange as if plugs are oiled up. I had the car out for a 70 mile trip 2 days ago and same thing. It appears to happen on the return journey, my question is can the heat sink past cause this if not correctly put on?.
I bought new coil with ignition it has new leads cap rotor arm of 2 years.
Many thanks
HK
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 182
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 23 July, 2014 - 08:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert it could be the new coil I would try the original coil also those ignition systems don't use a ballast resister usually the paste they use is good enough I have used those coils before they are sitting on my garage shelf you can E mail me rgy@hotmail.co.uk
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 127
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Thursday, 24 July, 2014 - 08:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, thanks so much for your advice. I still have the ballast resistor connected and new coil supplied. I shall try both options and report back, it might be a while as I don't know when Ill have the car out next.
Many thanks
Hubert
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Thursday, 24 July, 2014 - 09:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert I went to the garage shelf and brought in one of the offending coils the name on it is Accu Spark modern ignition for classic cars below that it says 12volt ballast my understanding of that is it has a built in ballast resistor if your coil is the same make as this counting your original you have two ballast resistors when with the electronic ignition you don't need any I hope you get it sorted soon.

Richard.
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Bob Reynolds
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Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 128
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Thursday, 24 July, 2014 - 03:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I'm pretty sure that means the coil is to be used with a ballast resistor, not that it includes one!

How many terminals does it have? If it included a ballast resistor, it would need to have three terminals. One 12v terminal for running, one 9v terminal for starting, and a -ve terminal.

You don't need an external ballast resistor if connected to electronic ignition though.

(Incidentally, I never could understand why ignition coils were not provided with a 9v tapping on the primary, instead of using an external resistor, getting hot and wasting power.)
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Friday, 25 July, 2014 - 06:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob I tried to post this a couple of days ago maybe the pigeon got lost, Talking about getting hot and wasting power would it be possible to re locate the coil to a cooler position inside the engine bay or not what do you think.

Richard.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 128
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Saturday, 26 July, 2014 - 06:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob I tried to isolate the ballast resistor, car would not start.
Richard I went to view that RR SS1 in Cavan they have one for parts a complete wreck guide price 1000 to 1500 euro , it s worth about 250 euro when you take towing into consideration.
hk
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 185
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 26 July, 2014 - 07:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert to isolate the ballast resistor you have to disconnect the wires and connect them together that is in effect the power wire to the coil I think that other car will have to stay in Cavan, A very nice part of the country.

Richard.
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.83
Posted on Saturday, 26 July, 2014 - 07:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The ballast resistor cuts voltage (and amps) to the coil. The coil is 9volts.

By shorting the resistor the 9v coil get 12 volts to boost the sparkles because the starter is drawing a lot the voltage at the coil drops to 10v or on cold day maybe less than good battery 8v.

A 9 volt tap would work quite well at first thought.

Which caught my eye.
However the unused section of the coil will when the coil is on 9v by induction be a transformer and produce 3v.
This 3v will interfer with harmonics.

If the 3v is consumed by grounding or say a small light bulb then the power consumed will be taken from the 9v bit.

The ballast res. does waste power in heat. But not much,---less than a headlight and the alternator has many watts. Which comes from the fuel.

Harmonic distortion in coils is way out of my depth of knowledge however I did read about its destructive abilities. Eddy currents heat noise and surges to attached components.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 129
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 05:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi, just an update on the car. I replaced the main fuel filter about 2 days ago the car seams to run and tick over much better, I also took your advice and bypassed the resistor today. Thanks for all your help. P.S. I have looked at several Shadows over the last month and I am itching to buy another one, ridiculous really as I can only drive one at anytime .
HK
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 187
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 07:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Hubert glad to hear your car is running a lot better just a wee word of advice if your main fuel filter was that bad its very likely that the fuel tank needs cleaned there is a drain bung at the bottom of the fuel tank.

Richard.
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Hubert Kelly
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Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 131
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 08:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, funny enough the filter seamed to good to replace, there was some.. slight sediment in the cup of the canister, I replaced it anyway 50 stg not cheap.. but crossland 444 came out of the car so ill know for the next time. Ill report back during the week. The scrap shadow for parts was withdrawn at 500 euro last week. Thanks for all your help thus far Richard.
HK
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 933
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 08:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If anyone has a source for Crosland 444 filters then please share.

I took careful measurements when I changed the one that had been in SRH33576 with the last one I had been able to obtain. So far I can't find anything that's precisely the same size with an open-end and closed-end configuration (along with including the seals for the open end as well).

These have been "made of unobtainium" for several years now from any source I ever knew that had them. Even Bentley dealers in the USA were in a position where existing stock, and that was very few, were all that was left.

The Crosland 444 was apparently commonly used as a filter for fuel oil on many furnaces in the UK, but even those who sold those were in "indefinitely out of stock" status when I last checked.

Brian
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 188
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 07:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian I replaced my main filter last year I bought it from Flying spares according to their information CD4299P is an aftermarket Item the current Price is £27 plus carriage.

Richard.
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.80
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 07:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Why is the ballast by passed.
If points then points and plastic heal often melt.Ford's when they first fitted ballast people mis understood and bypassed them which burnt up points etc. Electronic ignition has power transistors in place of the points. They might not be man enough for 25% more power. Also the coil itself is designed for continuous use at 9v. And in any case due to the starter the coil never gets 12v
In my experience a car that has a bypass runs fine for a bit then goes wrong. Bit like people.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.82
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 09:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am sure that 444 was used on lots of brit diesels like Perkins Bedford early Ford rootes land rover black taxi cab.
They were less than £5 And boxes of ten for £20.
Its been a long time though.
The filter complete was also used by anybody else who needed to filter Any light fuels. Motor factors used keep the.whole assembly in stock such was the sales.
So check the above makers and I am sure they will have them.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 591
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 09:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When I last replaced the oil filter on SRH24568 I got a truck filter from a local car spares shop. Unfortunately I don't recall the make or model, but comparing it to the original RR/B unit it was identical and fitted inside the can perfectly.
The annoying thing is that the three correct British made filters I bought a few years ago from the US cost (including international shipping) less than the price of one in the UK!
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richard george yeaman
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Username: richyrich

Post Number: 189
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 05 August, 2014 - 09:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bob I am sure when the Ballast was fitted to my car 40 yeas ago it probably was then the best option. In June 2011 I bought SRH19529 in Coventry I drove it to Stranraer and brought it to Northern Ireland it drove quite well. A short time later in my ownership it started to behave badly it would drive well until I had to slow down at a roundabout or junction and then it would stop turn the key and it would start again until the next junction etc on one occasion I was pushed away from a busy junction by two Police Officers. then the long haul trying to find what was wrong with the infernal thing new distributor cap rotor arm condenser new points new plugs ht leads all to no avail, eventually I found this miserable thing at the back of the engine hidden away beneath the coil I took it out and found it had rusted the wire coil almost away I replaced the points with a Hall effect electronic module the ballast resistor is now sitting on my garage shelf never to annoy me again.

Richard.
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Bob uk
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Posted From: 94.197.122.71
Posted on Wednesday, 06 August, 2014 - 07:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I wasn't sure about exactly what system you have. If the instructions say it's ok then fine. My jeep.has hall effect and a ballast.

The position of the coil and ballast is daft it is a real fiddle.

(Message approved by david_gore)