| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 447 Registered: 6-2009 |
Today LRK37110 came home with her "new shoes" on and into my own garage for the first time. I'm very lucky that I have about 3" to spare between the rear bumper and the garage door. A Silver Wraith II is definitely longer than a Shadow II (of course, that electric welder now in storage at the front of the garage probably isn't helping, either. In any case, as part of her revival from the dead I installed the Treacy Window Lift Improvement. At the time I did the work the results were both fantastic and consistent. Now things have gotten weird. The driver's window always works but the other three do not. When they work they really, really move fast going down or up and there seems to be no impediment to their movement of any kind. When they don't work the only thing you hear when you push the driver's window switches or the actual window switch on the door is the relay clicking. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to when they'll decide to function as to when they don't. I wouldn't think this is a motor or transmission problem just based on the way they whiz down and up when they do work. Any theories as to what might be going on here, or not going on here, that might help me to get them running any time I press the switch? Brian | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 412 Registered: 5-2007 |
It sounds like either the window cutout is triggering on the other 3 windows or the cigar lighter circuit has a dodgy connection somewhere - have you checked that fuse? If the relays are clicking it's not the window circuit I'd expect. When I'm working on the car I remove the interior light fuse (saves the battery) with the same result. I'm in the process of re-greasing the motors as advised by Paul York as a supplement to the RT modification. Incidentally, when I installed the relays I also put an extra direct earth wire from each switch so if the driver's window switch/circuit has a fault I can at least close each window individually. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 448 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeffrey, If the window cutout were triggering wouldn't it stay "triggered" until I reset it using the little red button? I always thought these were somewhat like circuit breakers and stayed tripped until reset. If this is the case then they're not it. I'll have to check the cigarette lighter fuse, though at the moment the driver's side windows will both work, but it started out earlier that the back door wouldn't. I haven't checked the fuses yet. I also put in a 20 amp automotive circuit breaker for the interior light fuse since at one time I had accidentally created my own short circuit on the bonnet light (since resolved) and was blowing fuses left and right until I figured out what it was. It could be that this circuit breaker is the issue. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 223 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian When the rear windows just click but do not operate, do the cigar lighters still work? Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 449 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, I can't currently answer that question. I still have the back door panels off so haven't tested the lighters recently. I will do this, but again, this afternoon one rear door window began to work after it hadn't been but the other one did not. The driver's side rear door is the one in which I had to replace the window motor. That is probably neither here nor there, since the flakiness has been occurring with all windows other than the driver's window. Brian | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 413 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yes Brian - it would stay triggered till you reset it. However there are four separate triggers in the box (and only one button) so you may have a combination of some windows stopping because the lighter circuit is earthed and one or two because of the trigger. If you have the door panels off make sure that the cigar lighter wire terminal is not intermittently touching metal somewhere - the covers don't completely cover the tab - I went absolutely crazy with your problem while I was working on it until I figured that one out. Test the cigar lighter circuit with one of these screwdriver type light testers to see if it's live. It's the purple plastic wire.  | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 451 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeffrey, Doesn't pressing the reset on the cut-out box (also, I believe, referred to as an otter switch, but I could be wrong) reset all four? I definitely need to check on the lighter since I know that during all the running around and checking yesterday at one point I did short the thing for a very brief second. I was having problems before this, though. I don't have the style of tester you show, but do have a test lamp with two alligator clips. I presume I could just clip to the purple line and then use the other clip for ground/earth and will get a "lit light" if I've got power. At this juncture, from doing the window lift improvement, I've got each and every wire and connector with ID tape. The only thing I wish I'd done at the outset was to mark how they originally mated and what their actual functions are/were. I've got that on some of the wiring, but not all. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 224 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian The crucial thing here is the control circuits for the relays are working, as you can hear the relays clicking each time you press any of the relevant window lift switches. This rules out the cutout box as a cause of the fault as the cutouts, when using Richard's modification, no longer work directly on the window lift motors, but on the input side of the relays. If the cutoff-box was faulty you would not hear the clicking of the relays. The problem must be on the output side of the relays. If the clock in your car is working, then it is highly unlikely to be the fuse, as the same fuse feeds the clock and the cigar lighters. (we ascertained earlier that you use the cigar lighter leads as the power source for the window lift motors, which is usual practice on the rear doors) It is remotely possible that the fuse is at fault, since the load on it is much greater when the windows are operated, but unlikely. You will have checked this fuse in any case for loose fitting contacts etc. So the problem must be the power lead to the output side of the relay, the various contacts to and from the motor and the earth connection (I presume you have run new earth leads to the door frame as specified in Richard's mod.) So, it is just a case of tracing the voltage through the purple supply wire (cigar lighter), through the relay output contacts and to the motor. Also check for continuity of the earth wire to the door frame. If you have used the existing black earth wire that tracks back to the door switch for the the power circuit, then there is a distinct possibility this is the cause. This wire is ok for the control side of the relay but not for the power side. If you are using this existing earth wire, I would run new earths to the door panel. Geoff | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 453 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Will report back with findings later. The clock is running. On the back doors I ran new earth wires from the relay sockets to the door panels, cleaning off a small area of paint where I affixed them and then coating the area with NoOxId. Since I'm hearing a click I have to believe it's the relay I'm hearing. It's a sound distinct from the motor itself when it is either at the top of bottom of its travel range and is activated. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2012 |
For anyone reading this and thinking of implementing Richard's mod, I just wanted to correct my last entry where I said "the existing black earth wire that tracks back to the door switch". I should have said the existing black earth wire that that tracks back to the window lift isolator switch on the drivers door. It is important to use the existing earth wire on the input side of the relay to keep the functionality of the isolator switch. Geoff | ||
| Bob Reynolds Experienced User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2012 |
This sounds as though it may be sticking brushes in the motor. If you have the door panels off, I would suggest that you operate the window switch and lightly tap the window motor with a hammer. You may find that it jolts the motor into action. If so, the brushes are sticking in their holders. This is a common problem with windows that only work intermittently, especially if the brushes have never been looked at. Also, bear in mind that the clicking you hear may be the brake solenoid rather than the relay. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 466 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, Thanks for reminding me about these possibilities. It's difficult to be certain whether I'm hearing the brake solenoid without being right next to the door in question. I'll have to get "my assistant" so that I can at least confirm what the sound is. One window motor in this car had to be replaced entirely. It looked absolutely pristine from the outside but when taken apart looked like it had been flooded on the inside with salt water (or something far more corrosive/destructive than plain water). This remains an utter mystery because I know the car itself has never been flooded and I've had all the doors apart during her "revival from the dead" and there is no evidence of any water intrusion of any sort. Now I have to dust off the cobwebs to see if I can recall whether the motor can be "popped off" of the assembly in situ rather than having to rip the entire motor/transmission/brake/support assembly out of the door (if I determine that a brush examination is necessary). Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 233 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian In the SY-I the motor cannot be removed in situ, although the solenoid can (and in fact should be as it facilitates much easier removal of the mechanism from the door). If the lower securing bolt and upper leather strap is removed then it may be possible to move the whole mechanism forward and remove the motor, but if you've got that far, you may as well remove it all from the door. I found that dismantling and regreasing the gearbox and chain gave satisfactory results on all my windows except for the rear one farthest from the drivers seat, on which I implemented RT's mod. Needless to say I also checked the condition of the brushes when I carried out this work. Geoff | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1059 Registered: 6-2006 |
Geoff, Have to disagree with you here. It's a fiddle but with 1/4 drive ratchets the motors will come out. Without the right tools it is a rpita so removal may be less frustrating. Early Shadow square motors will not come out - unless they have been modified in the past. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 234 Registered: 5-2012 |
Paul, I stand corrected Geoff. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2012 |
Paul, Without wishing to sound too pedantic, to remove the motor in-situ requires that its support bracket is bent flat to allow the motor to be drawn out horizontally. If the end bracket is just pulled back and the motor lifted upwards there is a chance the nylon coupling to the gearbox will be fractured.  Still, point taken. My original comment " it may be possible to move the whole mechanism forward and remove the motor" is clearly incorrect. I was working from memory and seemed to remember there was some difficulty in removing the motor in-situ. This must have been the problem of the support bracket. Geoff. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1061 Registered: 6-2006 |
Indeed Geoff, you need to ease the bracket bracket away while you gently maneuver the motor out without breaking anything. Never broken a coupling myself but I guess anything is possible if you are rough. I guess practise and knowing where everything is helps. Maybe taking a whole mechanism out first time for the experience would help some people. I guess I try too hard to keep clients costs down :-) | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 472 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, We have yet another SY1 versus SY2 difference. That metal plate that wraps around the motor and is bolted on to the end doesn't exist in either of my cars. Heaven knows if this was a pre-SY2 production change, and I suspect it probably was. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2012 |
Paul, I absolutely give way to your vast experience and expertise on these cars. Brian, Could this be the first example of a job that is actually easier to carry out on an SY-II than on the less sophisticated SY-I Geoff. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 495 Registered: 6-2009 |
Just a quick update. I've checked the lighter fuse and all three lighters and all function. The front lighter almost scared the pants off me because it ejects itself from the receptacle when it reaches operating temperature. Luckily it fell on the overlay sideways and I was able to pick it up very promptly. Since I don't smoke this is not likely to be a problem, but it is still not something I'd expect. Also, the clicking I hear is definitely the brake solenoids activating. This has got to be a problem either with the relay setup (doubtful) or the motor itself. I can test whether power is getting through to the motor with nothing more than a simple test lamp, so that will be the next thing I do. Right now I'm going to put her up on stands and check out that transmission vacuum modulator and its line. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 238 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Brian It is looking like the brushes in the window motors are the problem. In the SY-I the solenoid is wired in parallel to the motor. I suspect it is the same in the SY-II. If the brake solenoid is clicking then your relay wiring is almost certainly correct. So the problem must be in the wiring to the motor or actually in the motor. I would guess that, given the intermittant nature of the fault, the brushes are sticking in their guides on the three motors you mention. The drivers window motor is ok as it will be the most used. Geoff - who will not be working on his car this weekend as the weather forecast is for 47 centigrade; a bit of a push even for mad dogs and Englishmen. | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 95 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi all I was at an OLD CAR CLUB outing to day it was a lovely day I had my drivers window down during the end of the journey I put the window up. Later on when we were moving again I tried to lower the window again all I got was a thunk noise and no movement as this thread is quite recent I thought I might get some help from you guys. Richard. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Prolific User Username: dounraey Post Number: 251 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Richard That you can hear a thunk noise indicates that the wiring and motor are ok. Most probably some kind of mechanical fault. One thing that can happen (as on my car) is one of the small bolts that secures the top cog to the chain drive comes out and the cog slips out of position. The resulting slackness in the chain causes it to jam in the gearbox. The other possibility is a problem within the gearbox. In any case, you will have to remove the door card and check out the window winding mechanism in detail. I found the workshop manual provided a very good guide to doing this. It is a straightforward procedure. When you have removed the door card, check there are no loose bolts etc inside the bottom of the door. Geoff. | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Geoff. Thank you for your advice I will try that later in the week. Richard. | ||
| Bob Reynolds Experienced User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2012 |
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's more than likely sticking motor brushes. Bash the motor with a hammer. If it starts it's the brushes sticking. | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Bob. I think I will try that first if it works it will save a whole lot of time thanks. Richard. | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi All. Yesterday I had a go at my stuck Window I removed the door card gave some of the connections a bit of a wiggle tried the window and all was well again, Strange!!!! Richard. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 493 Registered: 1-2008 |
Not really. Most such connectors are made of base metals such as steel and even the 'better' ones will only have a thin electro-plating of brass or copper. Even if there is no visible corrosion there can still be such a thin layer of it - particularly at the point of contact between the two sides - that the joint will present a high impedance to the current flow. Giving the joint a 'jiggle' will usually be enough to cut through this and make a good contact again. You would have though that considering the original purchase price of all Rolls' they would have used gold plated connectors. Audiophiles have been using such connectors for decades (with video leads being also treated likewise in recent years)and although relatively expensive they still don't cost the earth. You will still find that most audiophile magazines still advise breaking a remaking such contacts as oils suspended in the atmosphere from cooking can creep into the joints and compromise them. As an ex audiophile (tinnitus) I still have several such plated leads in a drawer which just aren't worth the bother of selling. I just wish I'd still got some of the 500 feet drum of full bore 'Monster Cable' I used to have. Sold it shortly after the tinnitus kicked in. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 530 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, This is the reason I'm now sold on No-Ox-Id (or other equivalent) electrically conductive grease. Whenever I'm working with electrical connections these days I clean them up, either mechanically or chemically, and then make sure they have a coating of no-ox grease before being put back together. This stuff has been used on aviation electrical connections for a long time now, and after seeing the difference in condition after long periods of service I'm "sold." The degree to which corrosion is reduced is such that, to the eye, it is eliminated. Brian, also a tinnitus sufferer and never an audiophile (not that the tinnitus was the reason) | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 494 Registered: 1-2008 |
On nearly all such electrical contacts I give them a generous coating of petroleum jelly. Although it is non conductive any decently tight connector will cut through it at the point of contact with the jelly then creeping back to form a water- and air- tight covering. It's especially useful on towing electrical plugs/sockets and even there can last for a couple of years. In other areas that aren't subject to that kind of exposure the coating can last for several years. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 532 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jan, If you're going that route it's worth "investing" (in quotes because it's so cheap) in dielectric grease, which will last "forever." That's what I used to use until being turned on to No-Ox-Id A-Special. I made the switch for several reasons. The electrically conductive grease isn't expensive, can be easily sourced on eBay, and has the added advantages of being conductive and having a much longer life (virtually perpetual) than petroleum jelly under some very rigorous conditions. Brian | ||
| Bob Reynolds Frequent User Username: bobreynolds Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2012 |
If this substance is electrically conductive, isn't there a danger that it could cause short circuits? | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 533 Registered: 6-2009 |
Bob, The answer to that question is, "Quite possibly, if applied indiscriminately," but, "Not really when applied appropriately." On automotive connections I apply only the thinnest coating on male slide connectors and a tiny bit into the female connectors with a toothpick. I've never created a short circuit with it, but it might be interesting to try to intentionally create one in a testing situation to see how easy or difficult it might be. Given the age of this product, and the many applications in which it's used, it seems doubtful that it is problematic "when used as directed." Brian |
