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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 07 June, 2013 - 06:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've got a water pump leak when hot (it's fine when cold).

I recently replaced the header tank, heater valve, heater hoses and belts. I had the fan off to do the belts and forgot to put it back on before starting it up. With the engine running I heard a tick-tick-tick as the fan bolts bumped off the fan leaning against the radiator. I shut it off and nothing seemed to be damaged, so I bolted the fan up and everything seemed fine.

But weeks later I notice that the water pump is leaking. It's not age-related (as I rebuilt it some 3 years ago). Is it likely I damaged the bearings/seals with the fan incident, or can having the belts too tight damage the bearings/seals?

Either way, I assume I'm looking at another water pump rebuild?

Thanks for any pointers,
Jeff.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1038
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 07 June, 2013 - 07:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Jeff,

The bearings are pretty robust so I don't think a short turn with the bolts loose should affect it. Likewise the fan belts have to be pretty tight on it and should withstand tight belts.

Was there and looseness in the casing etc when you rebuilt it?

The bypass o'rings can weep and give drips in a similar place as a water pump leak. Just a though.

If you get it off and there is nothing obvious, perhaps an exchange pump might be the answer?
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 157
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 07 June, 2013 - 07:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I put a stethoscope on it, and I'm not sure exactly how smooth it should sound, but it's somewhere between the steering pump (very quiet) and the compressor (more noisy).

Before the system comes up to pressure, there's no leak at all. When at pressure, there's more of a heavy dribble than a weep.

The casing seemed in good nick when I rebuilt it. The bearings and seals pressed in nice and tight.

I've just added some RadWeld, but if it's a running seal that's leaking then I can't see that helping.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1039
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 07 June, 2013 - 07:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rad weld is made of the devils spawn :-(

OK possibly for a heater matrix weep, but then flushed out after a few weeks.

Yes it can cure a leak, unfortunately I've seen too many engines ruined by it to chance it.

Is the water coming out of the tell tale hole in the casing?
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 158
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 07 June, 2013 - 08:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Paul,

Yes, I expect it's coming out the tell tale. I couldn't make it leak this time until I let it heat-soak and then squeezed the top radiator hose. After that I could hear some hissing, followed by a thin stream of water running out the bottom of the water pump pulley.

So it's definitely pressure-related. I pressume that's the gland seal?

(Any chance it's a faulty steam-valve and the system is over-pressuring during heat-soak? The steam valve was replaced 3 years ago when the WP was rebuilt. In between my header tank sprung a leak at the seam -- possibly also pressure-related -- and I moved the steam valve to a reconditioned header tank.)

Jeff.
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 159
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 07 June, 2013 - 08:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oh, and if I let the pressure off with the header tank cap, then it stops leaking.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1287
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 08 June, 2013 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

My suspicion is the seal has been subject to some misadventure in service that has caused the clearances to increase allowing coolant to escape under pressure and be retained when only gravity is involved.

The significance of the stethoscope observations is difficult to define as the noise could be simply normal bearing noise, "flogging" of the bearing[s] in the housing or a combination of both.

My suggestion would be the bearing housing may be worn oversize and is now allowing the outer race of the bearing to move misaligning the drive shaft causing premature wear of the seal sufficient to allow pressurised coolant to escape.

Like Paul, I firmly believe cooling system leak sealants are a waste of time and money let alone being responsible for additional costs that inevitably are incurred when the cooling system has to be cleaned out to remove the internal deposits resulting from their use.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2833
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 09 June, 2013 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A couple of points here.

Rebuilding an old coolant pump may be fun and rewarding, or buying a reconditioned exchange pump may even sound sensible, but both options are always risky when it comes to reliability. Consider, a brand new pump in a box costs less than $400 with no core charge and is likely to last far longer than the original (new SY and SZ pumps now supplied have, since May 2013, a vastly improved main seal and bearing, so the usual life expectancy of 7 years for an SY or early SZ pump has been extended to the 30+ for a later SZ).

An exchange unit may be priced at $350 or so. Save 50 bucks after the $300 deposit for your core unit is returned over your credit card a few months later forgetting freight charges for its return. If your housing is unserviceable, an exchange recon will set you back even more as the core charge will not be refunded. Then you have an unserviceable old pump rebuilt. Maybe perfect, but maybe someone else’s nightmare reborn.

To rebuild a pump needs a kit costing only about $220 (you may shop around for generic bits and save $100 by cutting down a spindle made for a Mack truck I am told), but you will be lucky ever to reuse the impeller or spider, so add at least about $200 more. If you value the hour or so to rebuild the pump at no labour rate you are still behind.

Mess it up, and a refill of coolant sets you back $150 each time before you attempt to repair the pump.

So, I am puzzled why anyone would rebuild any postwar Crewe coolant pump these days when a brand-new one is such an easy alternative.

RT.
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 160
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Sunday, 09 June, 2013 - 05:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard,

Is the quality of the new aftermarket pumps good?

(I also maintain an old Land Rover Series IIA, and in that field the quality of many of the aftermarket parts is truly woefull.)

Thanks,
Jeff.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2834
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 09 June, 2013 - 06:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hallo Jeff

Short answer. Yes.

I am aware of Land Rover aftermarket parts issues, some excellent and some lousy. For that reason I don’t jump at Land Rover viscous couplings which fit Crewe cars for example. Then there are substitute parts – a different mater. As with Crewe cars, there are substitutes which fit and work after a fashion and those that do a proper job. Some substitutes fit with adaptors and seem OK (like some thermostats) but are not entirely worth the small cost savings, and others which fit and save a fortune (like steam valves on S2,3 and SY cars) and are maybe worth the risk.

For Crewe cars, the major players in the UK take no chances and offer a 2 year warranty on parts, labour and consequentials, as does SpurParts in Sydney. The water pumps now available are an example, and are not a compromise (quite the reverse) in quality. Parts classified as aftermarket for Crewe cars fall into two categories: those sourced from the same manufacturer as Crewe and those from elsewhere. There are not so many that are not from the same manufacturer these days ! Crewe buys many components from the UK majors and reboxes them by the way. Typical of parts sourced from the one manufacturer are head gaskets for V8s. They all come from Payen in South Africa, but Crewe sells so few that their purchase price is way above that of the aftermarket competition. Hence, you can but a head gasket for an S3 through Arnage – same gasket - at a far lower price than that offered by Crewe and receive the exact same part.

There are some questionable supplies of spares for Crewe cars out there of course but I shall not name them. If the price is really low, like those offered on some SC/S parts (mainly brakes) available overseas, I would be cautious. Safety-related items (brakes and suspension) or high-risk items (cooling systems) are best treated conservatively in my opinion, but the coolant pumps in question are, I assure you, of the high-end variety.

RT.
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 162
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Monday, 10 June, 2013 - 04:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the in-depth reply, Richard.

A new water pump sounds like the ticket. I'll do a bit of forensics on the old one once the replacement comes in, and post my findings (if any).

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 163
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 03:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

New water pump arrived...

... but with the wrong o-ring.

I replaced the o-ring a couple of years ago when rebuilding the old one. It should be OK for re-use, right? (Or is this the type of thing that usually gets pinched/deformed/marred in service and is essentially a one-shot item?)

Thanks,
Jeff.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1043
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 03:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

if you can wait for tin correct New one do. what's wrong with it!
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 164
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 04:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What's wrong with the one they sent me? It's about 2-1/2" in diameter instead of about 4-1/2".
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Geoff Wootton
Prolific User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 210
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 04:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff

Would you mind me asking the supplier of your new pump. Richard mentioned earlier that a brand new pump in the box costs less than $400. I'm interested to add the supplier to my list as I am sure at some time in the future I will need to replace the pump on my car.

Geoff
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Geoff Wootton
Prolific User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 211
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 05:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff

It's always better to fit a new O-ring but I can understand your desire to get the car back on the road. My question would be "how easy is it to replace the old O-ring if it fails". I have not done this job, but if it is just a case of removing the drive belt and then the pump, then go for it. If you need to dismantle half the engine then I personally would wait for the new O-ring.

One thing I have learned with my recent problem with my accumulator O-rings is they are manufactured to a standard - AS-568-nnn where nnn is a code for the size of the O-ring. If you take accurate measurements there are tables online where you can check out the code. You might then find a supplier close by.

Geoff
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 165
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 08:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

I got mine from Flying Spares (£195 before VAT).

Sadly, the definition of "a supplier close by" in Ireland is England (for pretty much anything bar what you could buy in a 7-Eleven).

The o-ring would be reasonably easy to replace (remove 3 sets of belts, the fan and the water pump pulley), but there's also the issue of some ~ £25 of coolant going down the drain.

Still, I'm itching to get the car back in service, so I think I'll pull it apart and give the existing o-ring a good inspection and then decide whether to risk it or leave the car in bits for a few days.

Cheers,
Jeff.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 436
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 08:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff,

Might I ask, not rhetorically, "Why don't you catch and reuse your coolant?"

I've seen more than shop do this when it's known that the coolant is nowhere near to it's "expiration date." If you make sure your catch pan is clean and use either a paper filter or several layers of cheesecloth in your funnel at refill time there's no reason you can't refill with what you drained. The major concerns are that the anti-corrosion additives are not expended and that you're not introducing dirt/grit into the system.

Paper filters (such as a cone coffee filter) really slow the refill process down but are incredibly thorough in filtering out very fine particulate matter. A couple of layers of cheesecloth let you go closer to normal filling speed but are not quite as thorough as far as very fine particulates go.

Reuse both economically and environmentally friendly when you're dealing with coolant that had to be prematurely drained.

Brian
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 05:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have patience Jeff. :-)
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 166
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, 14 June, 2013 - 05:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Putting a hose on the radiator drain tap and catching the coolant in some empty jugs just occurred to me last night. Then I wouldn't even need to filter it.

But it's no longer necessary. Turns out I've been a class-A idiot. If you take a 4-1/2" o-ring, turn in into a figure-8, fold it in half and put it in a plastic bag, it will look for all the world like 2 smaller o-rings. It was only when I put on my reading glasses to double-check the part number on the bag that I realized.

Anyway, thanks for all the pointers, everyone.

Jeff.
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Jeff Young
Prolific User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 167
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 18 June, 2013 - 01:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The culprit turned out to be a failed gland seal:

failed gland seal

There's a further crack in the same place on the other side; it appears given a bit more time the whole thing would separate in two.
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richard george yeaman
Frequent User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 93
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 18 June, 2013 - 02:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That's great news Jeff I am sure that will last a long time.

Cheers Richard.

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