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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 361
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 15 May, 2013 - 05:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello All,

For several years now I have had what I call a "sticky" starter on SRH33576. Very often when you turn the key you hear the distinct sound of the starter trying to engage (a very loud "click" rather than "thunk" sound) but nothing more.

Typically, if I release the key then try again the car will immediately crank and start. Lately this has not been the case. Sometimes I have to try several times before she'll do a very quick and easy crank and start with only the loud click in between on each key turn.

Last week I had my first incident where the car stayed in "loud click only" mode for over a day. I was away for a long weekend and tried again today, got my single loud click, then on the second attempt the more usual crank and turn over with no problem.

Every once in a very great while the starter cranking will be effortful, but that seems to be when the battery is not at peak charge.

Do I have a starter that's on its way out or is something else afoot here?

Brian
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Hubert Kelly
Frequent User
Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 72
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 15 May, 2013 - 06:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian, don't read to much into this. But several years ago the old starter on a 1966 Austin Princess Limo gave the same sort of trouble. Access to same was pretty easy, naturally I removed same cleaned the spindle and cog with effect. Once the cog springs back freely things might be good. That worked for that car, I have no idea if its the correct procedure for a Rolls Royce.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 362
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 15 May, 2013 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hubert,

Thanks for this information. The nature of the "irregularities" makes me think that this isn't truly a dying starter, but I wasn't sure what to think or to possibly try. This gives me a potential starting point.

Brian
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 1015
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 15 May, 2013 - 05:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Another thing to watch on the early quarter motor is the gearbox . Not the car gear box but the starter motor.

Some have a gear box which should be checked and filled when servicing. Many garages and owners are not aware of this . . . until the gears are knackered and unnecessary purchase of parts and a rebuild is necessary.

Not suggesting that is your problem or that you even have that type of starter, but seems like a good place to remind people.
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 475
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 15 May, 2013 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've had this problem on my Shadow and also on other cars with pre-engaged starter motors. It can usually be traced to either a failing solenoid or gunge in the works. Occasionally it can just be a high resistance in one of the wires or connections to the solenoid. On the Shadow and its derivatives the old type cork rocker box gaskets can often leak engine oil which drips on the the solenoid interrupting the electrical continuity - which was the cause in my case.
After stripping and cleaning them (battery isolated of course) I then wrapped some plastic around the end of the solenoid housing and there has been no recurrence. At some point I will have to bite the bullet and replace the rocker cover gaskets, but that can wait for another day.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 364
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 15 May, 2013 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan,

"If there's not oil under it, there's not oil in it," certainly applies to SRH33576.

I actually had the rocker cover gaskets replaced shortly after I acquired the car in 2006 and the replacements (the new "rubber" ones, not cork) still leak. I am very hesitant to tighten things down any further as I am not certain the shop I used to use at that time put the spacers under the cover bolts that are supposed to go there.

I'll definitely have a look around "down there" when I've got the car up again on jack stands in a few days. Heaven knows that I've been doing bits of incremental cleaning all over the place over the past 7 years.

Once I have the new sealing washer installed on the accumulator control valve body and this little issue addressed she will be looking for a new custodian. How I ever allowed myself to believe I could remain even semi-sane while trying to keep one SY car roadworthy and revive another from the dead I'll never know!!

Brian

P.S. to Paul: The input is most welcome even though it doesn't (I think, anyway, since we're talking about a 1978 Shadow II) apply directly to me. I have nothing against thread drift, particularly closely related thread drift. Future readers will appreciate it, too.
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Patrick Lockyer.
Grand Master
Username: pat_lockyer

Post Number: 852
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, 16 May, 2013 - 04:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The clicking is the sign of low voltage through the selenoid, check the battery output under load.
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gordon le feuvre
Experienced User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Friday, 17 May, 2013 - 02:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

An often overlooked part when attending to engine leaks is the crankcase breather that runs from the side of engine oil filler to intake. This has a multi (6 or7) gauze disc flame trap that over the years jus gets blocked with crank oil/sludge. It is a bit of a wiggle to unbolt ( and I think was only listed to be cleaned on 24,000/"C" service, so was not attended to very often, but it is very important to be clean to allow crankcase pressure to dissipate into the carb intake and not out through gaskets/throwers etc,
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 516
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 10 July, 2013 - 01:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, I'm coming close to the end of the road as far as dealing with the starter. First, another picture:

SRH33576 - Starter

I have already removed the short cable that runs from the solenoid to the body of the starter and cleaned up all of the things that connect there. When I attempted to remove the nut that appears to hold the solenoid in the bracket as well as connecting another incoming electrical line, it did not want to budge and, at that time, I didn't want to force the matter.

Now, I think I want and need to "force the matter" to get the solenoid out to look at its internal condition before going forward with buying a new starter.

Is the rear part of the solenoid just pushed into some sort of round holder that's attached to the side of the starter? I cannot get any kind of visual on that end, and the photos I've seen with regard to replacing the starter never focused on this particular bit since it's a baby that goes out with the bathwater when a starter is being replaced.

Any guidance about getting this thing out, how to take it apart, and what to look for in terms of possible overhaul would be most appreciated.

The next step will have to be removal of the whole starter and I don't relish that thought in the driveway with the car on jack stands with minimal clearance for myself and my tools.

Also, does anyone happen to know what each of the various wires is that are connected at the two terminals of the starter solenoid. I believe there's only one very thick wire with brown insulation attached to the top terminal in this picture. You can see what should be its protective cap skewed off the connection itself. The bottom connection, though, has not only the tiny 'S' cable that goes to the starter motor but two other wires as well (both of which seem to have been worked on at some point if the connector insulation is any indication). I have no idea what these might be for.

Brian, always curious
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Geoff Wootton
Prolific User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 254
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 10 July, 2013 - 02:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

I can't help with most of your queries, but I did come across the following text on removing the starter motor. It is written by Chris Browne and I hope he doesn't mind me reprinting it here. I personally find this kind of information extremely useful. I believe it pertains to the SY-I so all the usual disclaimers apply here. (in regard to SY-I / SY-II differences)

"It [the starter motor] is very difficult to reach. I had the car on a four post lift so I could stand under it. You can reach it over the top of the gearbox using long extension bars and a universal joint on the end with the 9/16" socket. Another way involves removing the transmission dip stick tube which means, of course, draining the transmission fluid. You may also need to disconnect the vacuum modulator pipe and with those two things out of the way, you can get on the bolt head, again from beneath the car, reaching up past the right side of the gearbox, with a small ratchet or an open ended spanner.
Unfortunately for us poor owners, the starter motor was originally fitted to the engine/gearbox before the assembly was put into the body shell so it was an easy job for the fitter. I don't think the designers gave a thought to someone having to remove the starter motor forty odd years later!"


Geoff.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1314
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 10 July, 2013 - 08:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brian,

The memory is fading however I do recall having to access at least two of the mounting bolts from the front of the car through the front suspension using a socket, two extensions and a universal joint. I ended up having to buy a set of 3 extra-long extensions to do the job. It might be possible to use some short "wobble" extensions as an alternative to the universal joint as these are easier to keep in alignment when undoing/re torquing the mounting bolts.

I don't recall any problems with accessing the other bolts from directly under the starter motor.

I don't recall any problems removing and disassembling the relay although I did this after the starter motor was removed. There is a removable cover over the contact end of the relay and once this is removed, the contacts are easily accessed.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 517
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 10 July, 2013 - 09:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David & Geoff,

Thanks for your input. Today was a two steps forward as far as the starter goes. Further cleaning of the top connection on the starter solenoid, where the battery cable and some other large wire connect to the solenoid seems to have returned the starter to normal functioning. The thing I had thought was a bracket of some sort turned out to be the battery cable and its end fitting.

A separate thread is about to be created for the latest disaster.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Prolific User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 256
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 11 July, 2013 - 02:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I should point out in re-producing Chris's text that he was in fact referring to the upper bolt that is very difficult to reach. He did say that the other bolts are easily accessible.

Geoff.