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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 24 January, 2013 - 04:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have just opened up the windscreen washer pump on my 74 SY1 to investigate why it is not working and find that the impellor is missing. Flying Spares do a service kit, however this is for the Trico system and mine is the Tudor system. Does anyone know if the Trico system impellor can be modified to fit the Tudor system, or whether there is a compatible part from any other windscreen washer pump that can be modified to fit.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 363
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 24 January, 2013 - 05:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,
My 74 Shadow one had the Lucas bottle with the pump on the top. Even when new these systems varied from car to car. Unless you want to gain some obscure concourse points for the exact one fitted to your engine number when it left the factory they seem to be all interchangeable.

In any case none of them seemed to work very well if the pump was mounted on the top of the container. In short, gravity pumps (at the base) work better for obvious reasons.

To keep originality I left the old pump on the lid of mine and snuck an (almost invisible) gravity pump at the base of the container using a modern standard washer pump grommet and a new pump. I drilled a hole in a second hand container to do it and kept the original intact.

The following test of winsdscreen washer pumps by Autospeed led to me to the best pump - which now sends a Niagara falls of water and cleaner over the windscreen when I need it.

AUTOSCREEN IC Spray Test - Part One:

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_IC-Spray-Pump-Test-Part-One/A_111224/article.html

Part Two:

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_IC-Spray-Pump-Test-Part-Two/A_111225/article.html

The conclusion?

"The Holden VT Commodore windscreen washer pump is Number 1 amongst its rivals. It offers the best performance in its class, it's relatively new, is readily available and fits into a typical late-model washer bottle. You canít go wrong."

The pumps are usually available on ebay in Australia - make sure you buy a second-hand or New Old Stock original not a reproduction.
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Nigel Johnson
Prolific User
Username: nigel_johnson

Post Number: 108
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Thursday, 24 January, 2013 - 05:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Rover P6 washer bottles will fit. We used one from a 1976 P6B in Geoffs' 1971 Corniche.

Regards, Nigel.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 364
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, 24 January, 2013 - 08:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just to clarify - the Tudor system is electric on your car Geoff ?

There's a lot on the net about the manual Tudor system but not much otherwise.

It must be an extraordinary system if it costs nearly the UK basic wage to replace the pump!

http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/electrical/shadow-t-1-2-windscreen-wiper-motor-washer-pump/shadow-t-1-2-windscreen-washer-pump/plastic-tudor-washer-bottle/windscreen-washer-pump-cd5862.html

Any chance of a photo?
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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 25 January, 2013 - 03:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeffrey and Nigel - Many thanks for your responses.

The system on my car is electric. The reason I refer to it as the Tudor system is that it is listed on the Flying Spares website under the section entitled 'Rectangular Tudor Washer Bottle'. The pump is priced at 95ukp which in US dollars, including postage costs, is around $200.

http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rolls-royce-bentley-shadow-t1-t2-corniche-mpw/electrical/shadow-t-1-2-windscreen-wiper-motor-washer-pump/shadow-t-1-2-windscreen-washer-pump/rectangular-tudor-washer-bottle.html

Other than "Made in UK" moulded into the plastic, there is no manufacturer identification logo on the pump.

wwp

The right hand side of the photo shows the motor spindle with the missing impellor.

I guess my ideal solution would be to track down a replacement impellor. Failing that, I have no problem in using non-standard parts as long as any modifications can be very easily reversed, as would be the case in using a non-standard washer system. So, plenty to be going on with - I will be checking out the links you have forwarded to me.
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 213
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 25 January, 2013 - 04:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

Looking at your pictures the pump does not appear to be the original, anyway, but simply an earlier version of the one that FS shows on their website.

I would be absolutely shocked if you couldn't source a replacement impeller from either a new "generic" washer pump or via a search of your local auto recycling sources. It would be very handy, though, to know what, exactly, it is that would fit. Unfortunately I don't think I can help there, though I'll check my SW-II to see what pump it's got.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 25 January, 2013 - 04:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

I've just been checking the photos in the RR handbook. Resolution is not good but as far as I can tell it appears that you are right. So here's a question - how loud is your washer motor. I remember the washer motor as being clearly audible in the car, in fact quite imposingly so. This could have been that lacking the impellor it was just running at maximum speed with no water to dampen down the sound. Should these pumps run silently, from inside the car?
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 214
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 25 January, 2013 - 05:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

As far as "silently" goes, that probably depends on your hearing and/or other ambient noise. I can hear, to one extent or another, the washer pumps on any car I've ever used them on.

I can definitely hear the aftermarket one that's on my Shadow II and, believe it or not, have never even tried to operate the washer pump on the Silver Wraith II, since that would be somewhere around issue 30,109 on the list of potential issues. I can check this out, too, since I don't have to run the engine to try out the washer pump. I'll report back in a few days. Our temperatures should be improving over the weekend. Right now it's still too cold to even consider working on the Shadow, which is outdoors, and it would take several hours for the oil stove to heat up the workshop where the Wraith currently resides.

Brian
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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Friday, 25 January, 2013 - 06:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, I guess I'm being a bit pedantic here. I was trying to assess whether my non-standard pump was a real cheap one and not worth repairing anyway. I have to say I'm leaning toward a non-standard replacement of better quality. Remember, in a Rolls the only thing you should hear is the ticking of the clock :-)

It gets quite cold here in Vegas in winter. I thought deserts were meant to be hot!!! Having just been through a cold snap with temperatures in the 30's, I have to admire your being able to work outside. My joints seize at the thought.
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 222
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 30 January, 2013 - 08:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

I'm going to "horn in" on your thread because I'm now having issues on my SW-II

First, though, some information for you re: quietness. The washer motor definitely isn't quiet. The one in the SW-II is definitely OEM and you can very, very clearly hear it when it's in operation. It's actually a bit louder than the aftermarket one that's on my SS-II.

The bottle in my SW-II has been dry for years, and I filled it up part way yesterday and tried the washer - no dice. It appears that this is a pump priming issue since the pump sits atop the bottle and you can see the input hose drop down and into the part of the bottle that's in the fender/wing. Even after a day, nothing's making its way up, so I presume I'm going to have to prime the pump from its output end. If anyone has tips on how to do this, please advise.

Brian, who turns to tiny projects like this when the big ones are either tiring me out, really peeving me, or both

P.S. We reached temperatures in the mid-70s F today. Great day for outside work
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Geoff Wootton
Frequent User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 75
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 30 January, 2013 - 01:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

If I had a pump priming issue I guess I'd first try applying a vacuum on the outlet whilst running the pump, to try and pull the windscreen wash through.

Thanks for confirming the sound levels. As I mentioned earlier, I reckon I was just being a bit too fussy.

I've been looking around the net for a replacement washer system, concentrating on Nigel's suggestion of a P6 washer bottle and came across a ludicrously low priced replacement that is dimensionally the same as that on the Series 1. For fun, I've ordered one and it should be here in a couple of weeks time. I am expecting to have to throw it in the bin but you never know, it may be ok.

Truth be known, I don't really need windscreen washers as I never take the car out in bad weather. In fact if any raindrops did hit the car, I'd probably faint. I just like to keep everything working properly. In the UK every car over 3 years old has to have an annual inspection to check that it's mechanically roadworthy, so washers are a definite requirement. I'm not sure what the position is here in the US; I guess if I was stopped I could get a ticket?
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 223
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 30 January, 2013 - 02:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

You must have working windshield washers in any jurisdiction I'm familiar with if the car has a regular registration. What I mean is it's not got antique/classic plates.

In Virginia, cars with antique plates do not have annual state inspections like the cars with regular registration do. They also don't have the little month/year sticker pairs so common here and elsewhere that let the local constabulary know if your registration has expired. Once you've registered an antique car it's "registered for life." It's somewhat scary what you can actually get away with if you are not a responsible car owner and have a car registered with antique plates in VA. Some of the cars I've seen with them (and that, I'll add, are violating the law in being used as regular transportation) antique plates are downright scary in terms of obvious condition issues.

Brian
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 949
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 30 January, 2013 - 04:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

unfortunately, in the UK we have just had our laws changed so that pre 1960. no longer have to be tested for road worthiness!

It is probably the most ridiculous and ill thought through MOT rule ever and god knows we have some crazy ones already!



it will bring out all the scrappers that were too far gone to get through am Mot . and many owners who did their Mot and service at the same time annually will leave it 'a little bit longer ' which is exactly what you can NOT do on old cars.

Brian . fill the washer bottle to the brim and try again.
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 440
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 30 January, 2013 - 09:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I thought that an internet referendum on the pre 1960 no MOT ruling had come down decidedly on the side of not implementing it and the whole idea had been shelved. I similarly think that it's a bad idea, although if a car were to be found to be unroadworthy if stopped for any kind of moving violation it could still be taken off the road or even scrapped. If it happened after any kind of accident the driver would be in deep doo-doo and rightly so!
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James Feller
Prolific User
Username: james_feller

Post Number: 264
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, 31 January, 2013 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jesus you are kidding arent you Paul????? my god thats insane! hell, I wont be so carefree in future when belting down the M40 at 100mph and I see an oldie in the right line....I always thought the MOT regulations were there to stop people registering potential hazards!!!
I certainly know what the SL 500 99' Merc I drive in London has to go through to pass its MOT. Yes its old now but still a bulletproof and terrific car for its 'vintage'.
Clearly if this is the case you are right as is Jan, the UK motorway network could be littered with 'hazards'..... mon du!!!!

J
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 224
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 31 January, 2013 - 02:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Back to the washer pump/bottle. Are the bottles entirely "sealed" or do they have an overflow feature?

This evening, when attempting to fill the thing to "almost overflowing" figuring I could get the thing filled up to just under the cap, I got a gusher coming out from the rear edge of the fender/wing just in front of the driver's door. I know that the bottle is definitely not empty for two reasons:

1. This gusher did not occur at all on Monday when I'd already put about a half a gallon in.

2. After today's gusher stopped I had a piece of tubing I threaded in to the bottle and could definitely "blow bubbles" in fluid (which, by the sound of it, was relatively deep back in there).

I've never had anything like this happen before, and I'm presuming there's a crack in the bottle, but thought I'd ask.

Brian
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 441
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, 31 January, 2013 - 07:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian: Can I assume that you have Shadow 2? Certainly in SRH24518, a '76 Shadow 1, the washer bottle is clear plastic and mounted completely inside the engine compartment on the trailing edge of the right hand suspension pillar.

Incidentally, when I first bought her the washers didn't work although I could hear the top mounted pump motor whining away to itself. It didn't take me long to realise that the previous owner had never used any washer fluid in it and it had a thick growth of mold inside which was blocking the tiny filter at the end of the pickup tube. After a good wash in warm soapy water everything was as good as new again and it hasn't failed me to date.

Oddly - and very annoyingly - the washers on my Toyota were working just fine until yesterday when the one on the driver's side stopped working. Obviously the MOT is due next week! This is going to be a PITA as they use tubes going up to the wiper arms with jets alongside the blades depositing the water just where it's needed. A neat idea - until they go wrong.
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 225
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 01 February, 2013 - 03:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan,

Yes, both of the SY cars I own are II-series cars: a 1978 European spec Shadow II (that was converted from RHD to LHD by some previous owner) and a 1979 Silver Wraith II, US spec, of which I'm the second owner and that is undergoing slow "revival from the dead, or at least comatose."

There is a small part of the washer fluid reservoir that's visible and that has a "side pipe" that clearly goes to the main body of that reservoir that's hidden inside the fender/wing. I can't recall if I've ever tried to fill the one in the SS-II "nearly to overflowing" but I could try that to see what happens.

I haven't yet looked in the workshop manual, but there doesn't appear to be an "obvious" way of extracting the motor from the top of the reservoir bottle. Of course, a way has to exist since it's not molded in. Heaven knows I don't want to crack the bottle (or crack it any further than it already may be cracked).

I've got the same issue you describe with the driver's side washer sprayer on the windshield wiper arm on my Buick. I think a piece of crud broke loose somewhere and is clogging it. It's got to come off soon for further exploration.

Brian
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 953
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 03 February, 2013 - 09:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, there is an o'ring between the visible filler part and the main tank hidden in the wing.

If the tank has been had fluid with no anti-freeze left in it , it can freeze in the winter and split.

The pump(s) should just be a push fit.

When the motors became NLA R-R introduced a modified bottle and pump arrangement which involved dumping the existing bottle and filler and fitting a new bottle with pumps that mount in the wing on the main tank.

From what I remember they were about £250 for the full mod kit. . . 35 years ago. Needless to say, most owners had a aftermarket pump fitted near the filler instead.

There is also a 'valve unit' of some sort in the hoses in filler neck that used to fail and just bump water around the bottle instead of to the jets. We deleted them.
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Brian Vogel
Prolific User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 229
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 04 February, 2013 - 02:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Thanks much for this tidbits. This kind of arcane historical information is invaluable.

Brian
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Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 445
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 05 February, 2013 - 01:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You were correct Brian. The fault was caused by a buildup of crud in the non-return valves making them non flow valves in either direction. The front one had to be modified by the removal of all the internals so it's now just a joint between the two pipes. On the rear of the car I was able to clear it out with a panel pin and a good pump of fluid made it work perfectly again.

Unfortunately the result of the MOT was still *failed*. Front dampers, bump stops and CV joint gaiters ordered and I've already got a set of front brake pads in the garage. Give me a week of half way decent weather and the Toyota will be legal (if still filthy inside & out) again.

Then I can turn my attention to getting the Rolls back on the road. God, I really do miss driving her!}
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 312
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 24 March, 2013 - 05:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Gentlemen,

Now that I'm in a wait state for the next set of fan blades to arrive, I'm going back into "lets deal with the trivial" mode.

This is the top of my washer pump:

LRK37110 - Smith Washer Pump

As you can see, it was made by Smiths in Great Britain. On the side of the case it has an engraved number sequence: 28 2 9,

In most respects it looks relatively similar to the pump photos posted by Mr. Wootton, except that the skirt containing the outlet barbs is not there; it's directly embedded in the top of the washer bottle. It also cannot be screwed apart to check the impeller.

After testing and getting no pump action even after priming and having both the inlet and outlet from the pump resting in water I believe my impeller has disintegrated. The motor runs like a champ, but that's all.

Does anyone know of an aftermarket replacement that is a "plug and play" replacement for this pump? I'd like, if I can, to get something that pops into the existing opening on the top of the washer bottle. There are other options that can be mounted inside the fender/wing, but I'd only like to consider those if there is no direct replacement available at a reasonable price.

Brian, who has photos of the lower half, too, but not here at the moment
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Geoff Wootton
Prolific User
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 137
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 24 March, 2013 - 06:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry Brian, can't help. I realise the SY2 washer system is very different to the SY1.

However, in case any SY1 owners are interested, I found this replacement washer bottle at just 7.40 ukp.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WINDSCREEN-WASHER-BOTTLE-Range-Rover-inc-P38-Sport-etc-/350614201001?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item51a23c22a9

I have not yet fitted it so cannot say how efficient it is.

washer

Approx dimensions

original: 165 x 125 x 85 cms
substitute: 175 x 122 x 90 cms
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 344
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 02 May, 2013 - 02:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello All,

I just thought I'd bump this thread by posting a picture of the lower side of the pump I showed above and ask again: is anyone aware of any currently available pump that would be a "plug and play" substitute for this one (or even close).

Washer Pump Bottom

Virtually every pump I can find has one pipe pointing down and the other at a right angle to it pointing out of the side of the pump.

I've got an aftermarket pump on the Shadow II and will go that route on the Wraith II if necessary. I just thought I'd check first before doing so.

Brian
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John Grieve
New User
Username: john116

Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Saturday, 08 June, 2013 - 03:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Flying Spares sell the Shadow II pumps as a reproduction item. I've had two of these in my car (SRH40222) for over a year and they seem to work just as well as the old ones (before they died).

http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/name-4020.html

John

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