| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 204 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hello All, One of today's goals was getting everything "wrapped up tight" so that I could start bleeding the brakes and height control on my Silver Shadow II (SRH33576). The good news is that I came very, very close to succeeding and can now get between 48 and 50 pumps of the brake pedal before the pressure warning lights illuminate on either system. The bad is that I still have a slight leak where the line nut on the input pipe from the brake pump screws on to the adapter for the System 2 accumulator control valve. I am positive that the leak is not from the side of the adapter that screws into the ACV itself. I’ve now reached a point where I’m seeking advice so that I know that what I do next won’t make things worse. Does it make more sense to give a wrench on the line nut a really good pull in an attempt to tighten it down on the adapter tip, or should I attempt to back it off first and then tighten it again? I ask because when trying to remove this line nut way back when the adapter itself broke loose on both ACVs rather than the line nut coming off of the upper nipple of the adapter. Trying to get two ¾” wrenches in there now that everything’s back in place poses more than a bit of a challenge. The “just tighten it” option requires only one wrench, but the “back it off, then tighten it again" will surely require two. Any advice from those who have “been there, done that” is greatly appreciated. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian - here's my take on it. You know the input pipe is seated on the ACV adapter as you are obviously getting only a slight leak. There is no chance of your snagging the pipe as you will have used anti-seize, which is your practice. So I would put the question back at you - what have you got to lose in taking the tighten it option. Unless the line nut is already really tight and you risk stripping the thread, I'd try tightening it a little more before taking the other option and backing it off. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 205 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, thanks for your input. I'm inclined to agree with you, but I asked in case there's something I'm simply not thinking of that I should have. By comparison to virtually any other connection in the hydraulic system, this adapter is huge and the threads on it are very coarse and thick. I only wish there were a way to test your tightening of these things before everything is back together and occluding your access, but alas. . . Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1191 Registered: 4-2003 |
Brian, just how bad is the leak? If it is a weep, the connection might take up and seal itself after several pressure cycles. Worth a little patience before getting the spanners out if this is the case. If it is a continuous leak, some judicious tightening might be in order but I would be very cautious about over-tightening stripping the thread. As you indicate it is a "coarse" thread, it may be a U.N.C. profile; if you can measure[guess???] the thread pitch and root diameter, you might be able to look up the appropriate torque for a fastener of this size from "The Engineer's Handbook": http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/torque.htm I would not go above the SAE Grade 3 values unless I had some spare fittings on hand...... David - who has over-tightened more than his fair share of fasteners over the years with the inevitable results. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian - I've just been checking out the torque data for the series 2. Pump to accumulator is listed as 3/8 UNF - 20-25 lb/ft. That is not that tight - I was hoping the figure would be 50-60. I can see the difficulty. As David says, proceed with caution. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 934 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi, Most often it is a case of tighten it and see what happens. I feel David G is being a little too optimistic on this one!  The 3/4 adaptor will always loosed before the pipe I'm afraid. Two spanners is a must when loosening this pipe. IMHO you should now loosen the pipe - Tighten the union - tighten the pipe. If tightening the union now involves more than a few degrees of a turn you will stress the HP feed pipe so it is constantly trying to unscrew the adaptor or even worse, will stress and (in time) split the HP pipe. This will mean taking out the 1/2 inch return pipe unless you have a pipe spanner or 90 degree offset 3/4 spanner (rare). You may be lucky and both nuts will be in the right place to get straight on! ( me being optimistic now). Make sure the alloy washer is in place to. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 206 Registered: 6-2009 |
I guess I'll offer two several additional pieces of information: - I tend to tighten all of these connections only to "snug" plus a bit more, then expect some will leak and need further tightening. - the same connection on the other ACV leaked, too, and a bit more tightening fixed the issue. - on the connection in question, a slight additional tightening (and I do mean slight) appears to have made the leak just the tiniest bit worse If any of the above makes any difference in opinions, let me know Brian, who was amazed that the upper line splice connection never leaked at all | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Brian, you probably want to avoid this, but have you checked the flare. If the flare ain't centered a leak may appear(ON EXAMINATION THE FLARE MAY BE OFF CENTER?) | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 207 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hubert, Though I understand exactly what you're saying there's no way to verify what, precisely is happening with the seating of the flare as the line nut is tightened down. One has to presume that since the line is centered by the line nut that the flare would end up being centered as well. Brian | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 935 Registered: 6-2006 |
Brian, Sorry I have just read your original post - on my pc instead of the phone. If you think it is the flare/line nut leaking then just tighten that. They do require quite a force to seal them because they are large steel faces so need to bed down nicely. Good luck with her, Paul. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 208 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul, Thanks much. Work is suspended for at least a day due to weather. We've had an arctic cold front move through and this car is in an open carport. Tomorrow's high temperature is supposed to be 19°F/-7°C with wind chills about 10-15°F colder!! Brian, currently hiding inside, keeping warm and listening to the wind howl | ||
| Billy Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.4.27.43 |
Hello "(David) - who has over-tightened more than his fair share of fasteners over the years with the inevitable results." Sorry to be a bore, but truly I haven't. There have certainly been weeps/leaks from Hydraulic joints but only due to poor flares and faces. A 'pinch and a bit more' is quite sufficient. On other, non-hydraulic, threads (chassis, yes even wheel nuts) if the threads are clean AND LIGHTLY LUBRICATED time-and-tested 'feel' is quite sufficient. Sorry to sound unsufferably smug but there it is. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2012 |
I once stripped a thread using an inch/lb torque wrench. Obviously it was faulty but due to the length of the wrench there was no feel and I was relying on the "click". I have never used one since on smaller set screws, always using the pinch and a bit more method. Have never had any problems. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 218 Registered: 6-2009 |
OK, gentlemen, I've reached the semi-desperation stage. I have snugged down a bit more, and it's helped, but I still get a very, very slow leak after the accumulator is fully pressurized and the car has been running for a short while. I have some very strict time limits on how much longer I can continue using the work space I've been using for this project. At this point there appears to be not a single drop leaking anywhere else. Is there any reason I could not do a system flush and bleed and get the car mobile from a safety perspective? I know I would have to watch the fluid level. At this point I'd simply like to get the car back home where I can put it up on jack stands again in my own driveway to finish off this miserable leak at leisure. I will add that the car has not, as yet, been run long enough to get anything truly hot, so no thermal cycling of the connection has taken place. Also, if anyone has any tips, other than apply as much brute force as possible, to getting the exhaust pipes reconnected at the manifold without leaks please offer them. I suspect I could still tighten down the nuts that hold the two halves of the bracket that pushes the flanges together at least somewhat. I still have a "putt putt" sound in this area, and I know that the setup never included gaskets of any form that I could see. Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1200 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Brian, the exhaust leak problem might be corroded olives between the flanges. From memory, the ones used on the Corniche single pipe 9:1 compression pre-emission control engines were 2.25inch diameter which were the same as those used on the 289/302CID Australian Ford V8 engine single exhaust systems of the 1970's era. I cannot recall what were used on the standard lower compression "colonial" engine. I also would not discount the possibility of a cracked exhaust manifold or a leaking choke stove pipe connection [these are prone to heavy oxidation]. As far as the fluid leak goes, I would run the engine for a period of time corresponding to the time needed to drive home plus say 15/25% extra and measure the fluid loss that occurs. If the reservoir still holds a reasonable amount of fluid afterwards, I would risk a late-night trip home with a couple of precautionary stops on the way to check the fluid level as well as some form of emergency stop/restraint if there is an incline leading to where the car will be parked. I am assuming you depressurised the system before attempting the final nip-up of the connections whilst it was hot. The obvious is often the most neglected when things are not going right.................. | ||
| Jeff Young Prolific User Username: jeyjey Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2010 |
Hi Brian, When I did my exhaust I gave the bevelled edges of the olives a light smear of FireGum (both for sealing and lubrication) and the V-grooves in the half-clamps a liberal application of Copaslip (so they wouldn't bind as they pulled the pipes together). I believe the manual recommends a graphite paste in both locations. (The disadvantage of the FireGum is that once you've heat-cycled it, you won't be able to readjust it. The advantage is that slightly pitted olives or pipe flanges should still seal fine.) I didn't have any leaks, but I'd be curious to konw what others have done.... Jeff. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 219 Registered: 6-2009 |
Jeff, I second your last sentence!! As to FireGum (or whatever equivalent I may find here in the US) do you have any experience with taking anything apart where you've used it? Since I now know that the only way to get the left side accumulator assembly out on this car is to take that clamp off of the exhaust so that it can move I'd really like to avoid creating a nightmare when it would have to be taken apart again (even though I'm very unlikely to be the "taker aparter"). This next question comes due to the use of the term "olive" by both Jeff and David. My understanding of "olive" from prior interactions was that this is what we here in the U.S. typically refer to as a compression fitting. It's a ring with beveled edges on both sides that slides on to the ends of two pieces of straight tubing and creates a seal by being compressed between those two ends and held in place. When I took this connection apart it appears that both the exhaust manifold and the first section of exhaust pipe have flanges on them that look like the respective halves of an olive, but there was no evidence that any sort of actual sealing material of any sort had been used in the original installation. The clamp is formed to push the two beveled pipes together to create a "face to face" seal on the wide, lower surfaces of that "flared" end of the pipe. Did I miss something or, perhaps, was something missing from when this was last put together? Brian | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 948 Registered: 6-2006 |
Brian, there must be convex and concave faces at the joint. Usually the manifold is convex and the downpipe concave. Hopefully that is what you have although a lhd may be different. Further back the pipes will have two concave faces with a convex olive between them. Firegum etc will separate afterwards and clean up ok. You should not really need it on the manifold. Unless you can pinpoint the leak, get a hose and put it to your ear. Then pass the other end over the joints and gaskets, The leak should be very apparent. We like to either weld a nut to the bolt head or weld a peak onto the bolt head so it locks itself against the clamp. If the adaptor is still weeping. loosen the pipe nut, then tighten the adaptor. Perhaps it would be wise to loosen the adaptor a bit to examine the alloy or copper washer. It couldn't have been swapped for a steel one by mistake could it? Just a thought? | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 220 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul, I didn't examine the ends of each pipe on their faces in detail, I just remember the cast "half olives" that are clearly visible on each end. At least this would not be hell to undo and redo. I can guarantee you, from close visual inspection, that the source of the leak I'm having is not from between the adapter and the valve body (and there is a washer between them - the same one that was there before - it certainly didn't appear to be a crush washer of any sort on either ACV, but a spacer). When the "ooze" begins it's clearly from the line nut, and the top of it if I'm recalling correctly. I'll have to look again when I get out there today. The only reason I'm resisting dealing with the adapter is it's been sheer hell getting all of the various connections back together and not leaking. I have to remove multiple hoses, etc., just to have a clear shot at it and would probably end up with other leaks again. I installed the adapter on to the ACV before I even put the thing back on the car. You just can't get a firm enough grip on that "micro-thin" hex when it's in place on the car whereas the line nut head can be grabbed from several different angles. I'll certainly try your hose suggestion. Right now the exhaust leak is definitely secondary (or maybe further down the list) but since it came about from doing this job it's easy to ask about here. Perhaps I should have started another thread? Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 221 Registered: 6-2009 |
Perverse Coincidence Alert!!: Yesterday I took my brother to see both "works in progress" and decided to give the window washer in the SW-II its first test (about which, more, on another thread). Then we went to look at the brake project on the SS-II. I have not cranked the engine on the SW-II since "the fan incident" several months ago and did not yesterday, either. When we returned to the garage where the SW-II resides, there was a new fluid leak under the car that was not there when we arrived. This morning I determined that it is a leak at the ACV valve adapter line nut on the ACV I rebuilt months ago. The car had been run many, many times after that with no leak. I'm getting a Twilight Zone type sensation right about now. Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 270 Registered: 6-2009 |
Now, for the latest news . . . SRH33576 is back moving under her own power!! It's hard for me to believe: a) that she rolled into the carport to begin what I thought would be, maybe, a 6-week project last April b) she ran as though she'd been being driven all along. There are only two things that are substantially different - the accumulators and control valves are in the best condition they've ever been and that leak at the line nut for the input line to the ACV is now worse than when I started. I am actually hoping that the leak is going to turn into a good thing in the grand scheme of things. It's not so fast that I'm draining the reservoir, about a drop every three seconds or so which hits the exhaust pipe and vaporizes. Given that the leak has gotten worse after some driving I'm wondering if Mr. Kelly's observation from January might be true and the thing has shifted in an effort to center itself. At least I can now get her home safely before the sale on the place were I've been working her goes to closing on March 6th. If anyone has any additional theories about how to fix this leak based on today's developments please let me know. Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Frequent User Username: wascator Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2009 |
Brian, i don't remember if I offered any advice on this or not; anyway although my car has both accumulator assemblies on the left side of the engine, my experience may help. There is a short pipe with flare fittings (37 degree AN, best I can tell; this is old aircraft stuff) on each end. Mine leaked a little at the adaptor on the front control valve. I took it off and the flare surface was rusty. I took a pencil eraser and some abrasive cleanser and cleaned it until is was shiny, adn reinstalled it, and so far no leak. I don't know exactly how your pipe is made, but mine is so short it would not be possible to install both nuts, bend it and flare it. it looks like there were special fittings, already flared, and then attached to the pre-bent tube with maybe silver solder. If I had not stopped the leak, I would have found an aircraft or gas turbine shop to make a new tube. I think also a flexible hose or a longer tube could be made to work: after all the adaptor fittings at the accumulator valves can be changed for a different type of fitting, as long as it is rated for the pressure involved. I hope this helps and encourages you. Hang in there! | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 273 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, Yes, you had mentioned this before and posted pictures, if I recall correctly. Based on what I've seen on my car, the configuration of the piping from the pumps to the ACVs changed pretty radically (no surprise there) when the accumulators were split and moved one to each side of the engine. At this point I'm just thrilled that I can drive the car away under its own power, and safely for the distance I need to cover. I need to have this *entirely* put to bed before I can consider selling her to her next custodian and then devoting myself to the revival from the dead of LRK37110. It's just such a relief to find that what makes her go still works as does what makes her stop. I was also happy to find that it appears that I've managed to get the anti-dieseling and weakener solenoids connected correctly. It was a pleasure to see the test light go out as the air stream into the engine was heated enough to get the bimetal coil switch to break its connection. Now lets hope I can figure out the mystery of the non-functional heat (and that it's the temperature sensing switch in the thermostat housing that's been proposed). Brian, who's about to be covered in 10-14 inches of snow over the next 1.5 days if the weather folks are correct |
