| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hello All, While the viscous fan clutch is not a mystery to me as far as what its purpose is, this is the first time I've ever actually removed one from a car. According to Flying Spares it's obvious that the fan clutch on my car is a UE40167. Now that I have this out of the car I'm wondering if some previous `technician` (or, perhaps more kindly, a manufacturing glitch) is at the root of the whole sorry chain of events that resulted in the destruction of my fan and radiator? Here are some photos of the actual items under discussion for reference:    When the fan clutch was on the car, you could very easily wiggle the front part of the clutch on its shaft. On closer inspection the hex-cap screw that holds this part on to the shaft itself was *very* loose. Now that this has been tightened down there is virtually no wiggle at all (there remains the very, very slightest bit, which I'd expect). It easily whirls around on the shaft when given a push and, of course, it's cold. Is this thing suitable for ongoing use? If it were I'd have to find a fan to fit it. I know it may not be, but wanted to ask under the circumstances I found. I also now believe this was the source of the really loud screeching sound I'd begin to get after the car had been running for a few minutes as it heated up. I'm planning on going to several of my local parts emporiums to see if I can get a new fan clutch and fan in the appropriate dimensions. This part certainly wasn't made by Crewe, as the manufacturer identification information in the first photo makes clear. Brian | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 924 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Brian, What actually happened to the fan / rad? Did something come off or was it all attached to the water pump and just struck the rad? Radiator strikes are usually caused by weak engine mounts and / or wrong adjustment of the engine stop on the front mounting. There should be just enough clearance to not touch the stop under heavy braking but will buffer against it with very heavy braking. This is really important. Rear mounts will look in good condition until you take the engine weight off them. Perhaps the allen screw loosened on impact? I'd get a fan (used about £100 + shipping if you can't find one locally) and try the viscous on it. The play should be very slight. Typically they should have resistance when cold cold. Then it drops off as the engine runs for a few minutes and then gets stiffer as it gets towards working temperature. Of course your cold may not be the same as our cold though. ;) | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 181 Registered: 6-2009 |
Paul, The fan did strike the radiator and I'm sure that this is what caused the damage to both. Everything was attached to the water pump (and now that I've taken it off I can assure you that with the exception of that allen screw, quite securely). I know about the weak engine mounts theory, but that cannot be what was at play here. The car that this occurred on has not, since I've owned it (1/2012), yet been driven and this occurred while the car was sitting still and I was running the engine to test something else. The car is one-owner, prior to me, but he had become ill and it had been garaged for 5 years before I purchased it. I've got lots of "revival from the dead" issues that I'm working through and am about to lose my work space. It is possible that the screw loosened on impact, but I'll never know for sure. I can't post "multimedia" files here, but I once made a recording of the squeal that developed that I now believe might have been from the fan clutch. Trying to find Rolls-Royce and Bentley parts other than through Crewe Original for things like fans and fan clutches is well-nigh impossible where I'm located. Given that these common parts are typically marked-up beyond all possible belief that's one of the reasons I'm always trying to find true functional alternatives that are able to be sourced at any decent auto parts outlet. Over my time with my cars, and helping others, I've discovered that a great deal of deferred maintenance is the direct result of these cars being owned by individuals (such as myself) of not-unlimited means either not being able to afford or not wanting to pay the exorbitant prices charged for what are dirt common parts renumbered by Crewe and dropped in the appropriate bag. I've had recent contact with Richard Treacy regarding RR363, which at the least expensive U.S. source I have located is $30/liter for single bottles and $27.50/litre in sets of four. That's insane. He says it can be sourced in Oz for less than half that amount. The original UE36600 thermostat, which is a sketchy design at best, costs about $140 and has a recommended replacement interval of 2 years while a fully functional replacement costs approximately $20 and has a virtually perpetual service life. (Whether you, for any you, wish to use it is left to your discretion after reading about it. See Tee-One Topics, Issue 95, if you're curious). "Our cold" in the dark days of winter here has an average low temperature around 25°F/-4°C through to a high around 50°F/10°C on a good day. Is it possible to test the functioning (or, at least, the basic functioning) of a viscous fan clutch when it's off the car? I would imagine one could heat these things, gently, in a relatively cool oven to see if the engagement kicks in. What I don't seem to be able to determine is at what temperature I should actually expect the resistance to really kick in. Brian, who's also rushing to complete the brake work on a different car so I can drive it away from where it's parked at the moment [and having troubles with that, too] | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2011 |
Hi Brian You Know what i think and it would be more efficient but i suppose RT and the Moderator will give me some stick and if there is a problem only takes 10 min to change | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 182 Registered: 6-2009 |
Actually, Michael, I don't know (or, at least, don't recall) what you think. As far as I'm concerned all ideas are welcome. Each of us should be evaluating same, possibly offering supporting or countering opinions in a civil manner, then deciding what each of us will do as individuals. Brian, Orthodoxy R' Not Us | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2011 |
Kenlow Fans | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 311 Registered: 4-2009 |
I know this is of no help, but I just changed the viscous coupling on my Bentley Continental R. I live in the desert where this component is as critical as a liver or a heart in a human being to the car. The replacement was a like for like unit from an oldie Range Rover at 20% of the cost of the Crewe equivalent. The thing has worked admirably since I have installed it. Brian you are right - look around and you will find the right part. Many years ago I replaced the viscous coupling on an old Shadow 1 and that part came form an American car. I just cant remember which car now. | ||
| Omar M. Shams Grand Master Username: omar Post Number: 312 Registered: 4-2009 |
Dear Brian, The squeal you talk about is abnormal. Are you sure it wasnt the fan touching the shroud? or a loose belt that in the whole story is a red herring? Omar | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 183 Registered: 6-2009 |
Michael, I've entertained the idea of an electric fan but don't think I want to go that route as my first choice. Omar, I know I'll find something, that's for sure, that should fit just fine and work just fine for both the fan clutch and fan itself. This is not rocket science!! The squeal was absolutely not the fan touching the shroud, which remains unblemished, but I can't rule out a belt. The belt test will be after the radiator is repaired and I have coolant in the car again. Brian | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2011 |
It wasn’t by choice I went for a kenlow it was reliability and the fact my Jag got hot and ended up on a AA truck Then went back to racing days and fitted one As the fan was powered up all the time it was good to hear it come on when the water gets up to temp I understand where people like to keep there cars standard but if you want to drive them in a modern world you have to change How many of you can drive your cars for 20000 a year on standard equipment ? All the bits I don’t use I put in a box so if I ever get rid of the cars all the bits are there So when you think last week she did 1000 m (the Bentley) with out a problem It will be serviced and on the 24TH she is up for another trip So it is called reliability and No AA man | ||
| Geoff Wootton Experienced User Username: dounraey Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2012 |
Wow - that's a hell of a mileage at UK petrol prices - $8 per gallon. Have you got a gas conversion. | ||
| Neville Davies Experienced User Username: nev_davies Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2006 |
Geoff. Oh that we should be so lucky. Unleaded is near to $9.50 per U.K. gallon and premium $10.50.majority of which is tax. Nev  | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2011 |
that was 20000 between Bentley and Jag plus Mazda RX 7 sorry to confuse but still good miles | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 184 Registered: 6-2009 |
Michael, I've never had overheating issues with any of my cars and have drive my Shadow II 3/4 of the way across the US without issue. It appears that the cooling systems on these cars were, as a general rule, "overengineered" with very high cooling capacity since Crewe knew they could end up virtually anywhere in the world. Any time someone says they've got a Rolls-Royce overheating I immediately suspect something's wrong with some component in the system. In any case, it's very well known that the original series Shadow cars in the chassis number range of 11111-26700 can use the Hayden 2747 viscous fan clutch as a drop-in replacement. There viscous fan clutches used on the two-series cars is the UE40167 and this carried over to the early SZs as well. I have to imagine that someone out there has cross referenced this to some commonly available equivalent. The original wasn't made by Crewe and I fail to believe it was sui generis. Virtually all of these "common type" parts cross reference to either some GM part or just as often a Jaguar or Land Rover part. If anyone knows of alternate part manufacturers and their numbers please offer them here. Brian | ||
| Randy Roberson Frequent User Username: wascator Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2009 |
Holset made the original unit and they are still very much going; they make lots of turbochargers, for example. I agree that there is another part number for the same unit as used on a different machine. One always hopes that some insider or tinkerer will pop up and offer, "Sure, that's the same as used on a Bloviating McThingy, just ask at their parts counter." Recently I modified a plastic fan blade from U-Pull for an old Ferguson tractor, and it works fine. I imagine that any fan you install will do the job, as long as it does not hit anything and pulls enough air when the clutch calls on it. Volvo, Jaguar, Range Rover, etc. or an industrial machine like a tractor might be a source. David Brown tractors began using a plastic fan back in the 1970s, and I bet it came from the same manufacturer. Is it possible that the metal fan and clutch from the earlier cars will fit/work, or is the shroud or water pump different? Just asking. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 185 Registered: 6-2009 |
Randy, One of the difficulties is not having one of every "sub-series" of Shadows for comparison!! ;-) I have had incredibly generous offers of metal fans from the original Shadow series, but I have been told that there are some significant differences "up front" but have no basis for comparison. I will keep the original viscous fan clutch and fan arrangement if it can be done for something less than an obscene price. I consider $250 US (in whatever currency) for a fan clutch as obscene as well as just about the same for a set of plastic fan blades. Hence the search for a more "common" functional equivalent. If I can't come up with that I am also seriously entertaining the idea of doing an electric fan installation. This is easy and completely reversible if I can find an option or options that have been tried by others and known to work. Brian, who's been the recipient of many a gem from tinkerers/researchers who have done their homework [and who loves the "Bloviating McThingy" brand!!] | ||
| Billy Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.4.27.43 |
(Michael) He's right, Kenlowe fan is the way to go. I have done it and no problems. Quieter engine, faster warm-up, more space and no more grazed knuckles. However, this is UK temperate climate; might be an issue in Aus. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2736 Registered: 4-2003 |
There are lots of alternatives that fit and work. Just a warning against buying a coupling advertised as Heavy Duty. They work too, but only if you wish your car to roar like a Lion rather than to purr. A good coupling will slip when it should but couple to about 70% or less at temperatures in the outback at 40 and now even 50C just today. As Brian notes, these cars have serious overcapacity in the cooling department and need no help. RT. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 186 Registered: 6-2009 |
Some additional information for the historical record. I am having absolutely no luck in locating an alternate fan clutch that fits the Crewe Original fan number UE40358. There's certainly got to be one, but it's certainly not readily available through U.S. auto parts houses. However, since my fan is certainly not able to be reused, I've been exploring alternates there, too. So far it appears that one of three Hayden viscous fan clutches (the 2705, 2706, or 2707) will work when coupled with their 3619 fan blade set (which is metal, not plastic, and with a slightly deeper pitch than the UE40358). I've currently got the Hayden 2707 viscous fan clutch but must wait to get my radiator back from the shop to make sure that all my minimum clearances on the front and back side of the fan blades will actually be there. The only difference between the three is the distance between the shaft pedestal base and the mounting surface of the blade set. [2705 - 1.53", 2706 - 1.75", 2707 - 2.03"] It works perfectly well with the bolt pattern on the water-pump shaft. Some of the tech stats on the three fan clutches noted above: - Standard Duty Thermal - turns fan 60-70% of shaft speed when engaged - disengage to 20-30% of the shaft speed - used with lighter pitch fans (1.5" of pitch) - engages at approximately 170°F/77°C radiator air temperature (about 30° cooler than coolant temperature) Brian | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 203 Registered: 6-2009 |
Well, it appears that the Hayden 2707 and 3619 blade set will not work. I was working on both cars today and my task on LRK37110 was positioning the repaired radiator and clutch/blade combo. When in place the 2707 clutch is much too close to the inner surface of the radiator, about 1/4", and I only have about 1" of clearance between the leading edge of the fan blades and the radiator as well as the trailing edge of the blades and the AC clutch. Were I to go with one of the other two Hayden options, it would make the trailing edge clearance even tighter, which is a no go. The search continues. . . If any new readers catch this, and know of specific make and model numbers, please report on same!! I will also add that if anyone has specific make(s)/model(s) of thermostatically controlled electric fans that they've used successfully please report on those as well (including the control module, if it's a separate item from the fan, and for many it is). Brian | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1192 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Brian, have you done any research on the Derale range of viscous clutches? They may have something suitable if you go through their clutches for Ford L6/V8 and Jaguar L6/V12 engines. Note they offer clutches for screw-on as well as bolt-on fans if you need a new fan as well: http://www.derale.com/ Hopefully, this might bring you closer to finding a replacement - I would photograph the R-R clutch and fan assembly and provide the relevant dimensions to Derale to see if they can identify a suitable replacement. P.S. Have a close look at the 22016/22018 clutches as these are listed for both the Falcon and Jaguar engines. See page 154 of the fan clutch catalogue for the dimension measurements you need to supply for matching. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 209 Registered: 6-2009 |
David, Well, I measured the OEM Holset fan clutch for all of the dimensions that Derale gives on their fan clutch identification guide on pg. 154 of their catalog. However, I can find absolutely nothing in their own catalog that tells me what those dimensions are for the various fan clutches they produce, which I find rather peculiar. The closest thing I can find is what follows the ID guide, which only gives you information on the "type" [which Derale's Type II, standard thermal is the equivalent to the original], direction of rotation [we need clockwise, which is the more usual], and mount style [we need bolt on]. There's nothing about overall depth from pedestal base to clutch face, pedestal center hole diameter [irrelevant for SY II/2 series cars], pedestal base outer diameter, fan mount surface "vane circle" outer diameter, or fan mount hole center distance. Based on what is there the 22017 clutch is the closest match I've found based on the limited data I have. I've written to Derale asking for the specifics on the dimensional data for their clutches by item number. If I've somehow gone blind and missed this in the catalog please let me know where it is. A full search on 22017 turns up many references to it, but no entry in a table with dimensional data. It's also going to be interesting to see if they have a blade set with sufficiently shallow pitch that gives the necessary clearances once it's mounted on the clutch. Brian | ||
| Michael Hicks Frequent User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2011 |
Hi Brian Why don't you just fir a Electric fan and when a old fashioned one pops up you can put it in a box and it can go with the car when you get rid off it much faster way of getting the car back on the Road | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 210 Registered: 6-2009 |
Michael, Because, in this case, speed is not really "of the essence." It would be really nice to have one or more known "plug and play" viscous fan clutch and fan blade set alternatives. I figure I've got the time to at least try to find one, so why not? I haven't ruled out going electric at all. I'd still like to have the answer to my original question, and it appears that if I am to do so it's going to be from my own research. Brian | ||
| Michael Hicks Prolific User Username: bentleyman22 Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2011 |
do you want one sent from the UK ? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1193 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Brian, Yes, there are no dimensions in the catalogue. I included the dimension chart so you knew which measurements you needed to send to Derale's support people so they could match your clutch. Re your reference to the 22017 clutch, note that this is a 6inch clutch and not the more usual 7.25inch unit - if I remember correctly, I don't think the clutch is the smaller unit. By the way, I note your original clutch has "Huddersfield" stamped on it; Huddersfield is a town in Yorkshire England so I presume this is where the clutch was made. Hopefully, this might provide a "memory jog" for one of our UK members who can advise the name of the manufacturer. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 212 Registered: 6-2009 |
David & Michael, First, just for the historical record, there are three different chassis number ranges where water pumps, fan clutches, and fan blade sets differ. Based upon the Flying Spares website: Chassis Range 1001-11218 11219-26708 30001-41601 (the II/2 series plus early SZ's, too) The combinations of water pump, fan clutch, and fan blades is too complicated to put into a table here. If you look at the above pages you'll see why. The original unit in both my 1978 SS-II and 1979 SW-II is not a 7.25", but is definitely a 6". Since I have the original Holset clutch (see front face in photo above) at my feet I took all the measurements earlier. Here they are: Pedestal base to Clutch Front (A) 2.5" (2 1/2") Pedestal center hole diameter (B) 0.625" (5/8") Pedestal base outer diameter (C) 2.625" (2 5/8") Fan Mount Surface Vane Circle OD (D) 3.375" (3 3/8") Fan Mount Holes Center Distance (E) 3.9375" (3 15/16") Fan Mount Height from pedestal base 1.5” (1 1/2“) I could be ever so slightly off on D & E since I had to eyeball it, not having a set of calipers on hand. Since Flying Spares is charging approximately $238 US for their aftermarket fan clutch and the same for the used fan blade set, I have been motivated to do this research. The Hayden fan clutch and blade set together cost approximately half of either of the above parts alone, and the pricing for competitors such as Derale is approximately the same. The last few times I've had to ship to/from the UK the costs were astronomical (particularly for things that weigh a ton, such as a fan clutch). If I can't end up sourcing something on this side of the pond then I'll send up a flare as to what might be available in the UK. Brian |
