| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 120 Registered: 6-2009 |
This thread is the "companion piece" to my earlier tale of woe, but this one applies to the SS-II. After a months-long ordeal with getting the accumulators and control valves overhauled and back in the car a most perverse disaster has struck. When trying to get the high pressure hose between the accumulator and the car body reconnected into the 4-way connector block on the left side of the body, I somehow managed to cross thread the block and ruin it. Some kind soul came to my rescue with a replacement, but the final connection that goes into the line that crosses the firewall will *NOT* budge. I've tried every technique known to man that one can perform in the space including but not limited to multiple heating-cooling cycles with a butane torch, penetrating oil, using locking pliers on the connector block itself and the hex fitting and trying to tighten/loosen by turning one, the other, or both. I've now decided that the only solution is going to be to cut this line and install a replacement. My intention is to use the new cunifer/EZ-Bend line rather than mild steel for a number of reasons, the primary of which is that it will allow me to "thread" the line across the firewall and do the large bends by hand. The fact that it doesn't corrode and is much easier to flare are both big bonuses. I have acquired a Kent-Moore J29803A ISO Flaring Tool Kit to allow me to make the ISO/DIN/Bubble flare on each end of the 3/16" line and this will be my first attempt at making flares. Any guidance that anyone cares to offer about the process of making the line and/or getting it into the car would be appreciated. The old line is going to be "abandoned in place" with the respective working ends cut off. I'd have to remove an ungodly amount of stuff from the top of the firewall to get the old line out and that's really not necessary in this case. The car will now have two "abandoned lines" in it instead of the one I inherited it with. Brian | ||
| richard george yeaman Frequent User Username: richyrich Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hi Brian. Sorry to hear all your bad news i hope you get it all sorted soon. Richard | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi Brian, sorry to hear this news. Hopefully someone will give you advise, to save the day. PS great piece re accumulators from yourself ,David, Jan,and Richard most informative. hk | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 154 Registered: 7-2010 |
Brian I presume you propose to use the 90/10 copper/nickel tube to BSEN 12449 CW024A and CW352H - three points arise: Firstly: make sure you get if from source - there are several poor quality look-alikes around. If you were in the UK I'd suggest Dorset Tubes: www.dorsettubes.co.uk but I don't know any USA supplier. Secondly: I would suggest you anneal it first - copper tube and copper/nickel tubes harden with age and annealing the tube prior to bending will make life much easier. Thirdly: please don't try to do this free-hand but use a forming tool as you will otherwise run the risk of getting kinks in the tube. Having said that - if you must do it freehand fill the tube with tamped down very fine dry sand first, which will help you to avoid kinks. The kiln-dried very fine sand used for back filling patio block pavers is ideal. You will need to flush out the tube very well before installing !!! Peter | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2009 |
Peter, The tubing I'm considering is SUR&R EZ Bend Tubing and their corresponding 3/8-24 bubble flare nuts. As far as I've been able to determine this is a reputable company for this product. My understanding is that this tubing arrives pre-annealed, but if not I don't know how one torch anneals this tubing. Instructions would be appreciated. I know how to anneal copper washers, for instance, but I doubt this tubing would withstand that much heating without melting. I will try to find a tube forming tool, but the bends are pretty much going to have to be done "in place" within the engine bay due to how the line is currently routed, and pretty much must be rerouted. Luckily, there are no really sharp bends needed. The sharpest two are less than 90 degrees and that's where it starts across the firewall on both sides. Thank you for your input. Brian | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2012 |
I replaced the entire brake line network within the last 2 years big job at the time. I had a situation where I needed to join two pipes, I did so with a common day connector. I also had to flare some of the pipes on the car due to location(of same). I was nervous about using copper nickel at first, but, as per info sheet it has a 3000psi rating. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hubert, What are you referring to when you say "day connector"? If I thought there was a way to "splice" a piece of new line on to the end of the existing line I'm going to have to cut (and it is in perfect shape other than the "welded" fitting) and have it function correctly I'd do so in a heartbeat!! The car I'm doing this work on is an RHD-to-LHD conversion by some PO, and a huge amount of the brake line has been cunifer/EZ-bend line for the entire time I've owned it. The stuff is every bit as strong as steel as far as pressure resistance goes. However, if you accidentally hit it with a hammer or wrench/spanner you can create problems that you would not likely have had with steel. The ease of workability is more than worth the trade off for me, as is the fact that it doesn't corrode. Brian | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2012 |
Brian what I mean is I went to my local motor factors and asked for a brake line connector with metric nuts, I flared both ends and joined same, the fact they were a metric fit didn't matter as they were only joining 2 pipes. that might not be the answer to you question. The connector is similar in function to this one , size length different but you get the idea, it comes with 2 nuts? http://www.sierramadrecollection.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3523 | ||
| Hubert Kelly Frequent User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 59 Registered: 3-2012 |
following on from that Brian, once the pipes are joined, one can use the existing pipe to wherever... then...join with metric connector.. with new pipe attached at metric connector the other end(new pipe) continues to the original connector (on car) using correct nut(unf etc) and flair . hk | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 155 Registered: 7-2010 |
Brian We could embark on a multi-page academic exposition of copper and copper/nickel annealing which might be of interest of of little practical use. A detailed explanation of the very relevant Hollomon-Jaffe Parameter really would not help. In essence, annealing copper and/or copper nickel requires heating it up then letting it cool. You can do this by heating the tube up to ruby red with a propane or butane gas torch then letting it air cool. An easier way (which I use) is to fire up a charcoal BBQ (a gas one is of no use), cook off lunch, then put the tubing on the grid over a hot grey ash residual fire, leave it overnight and it will be ready to use next morning. Explanation: annealing is both temperature and time dependent: a long slow cook at a fairly low temperature works just fine and as the BBQ goes out the tubing will cool gently. Had a discussion earlier with friends in USA. Go to: http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/C70600.asp Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 156 Registered: 7-2010 |
Most every time I log on to this Forum someone has a problem with cross-threads or thread miss-match. Over the years thread specifications have developed, ranging from the Whitworth thread through all sorts till we get to the current widely used metric threads. For a useful guide go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_thread If you can't screw a bolt into a thread by using fingers alone then you either have a crossed thread or a thread miss-match. Crossed threads can be dealt with by running in a parallel sided tap. If it is a thread miss-match use a set of thread gauges to deterrmine the thread. The message is quite clear: it is futile to force matters with a heavy duty wrench - you will only make matters worse. Peter | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 124 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hubert, Thanks for the follow-up and for giving me an idea that had never even occurred to me. I've found the connector, called a brake line union by most parts houses in the U.S., thanks to the link that showed me what I was looking for. Now I've got to determine how hellish it might be to flare the old mild steel brake line in place and what needs to be done to anneal it, since it's had over 30 years of road rattling to work harden it. Peter, what's interesting about this situation is that I could and did finger tighten the new hose into the old connection block the majority of the way. It's not unusual, in my experience, for things to tighten up just a bit as everything tightens down and I thought that was what was happening here. Clearly, I was mistaken. Heaven knows I'll be far, far, far more careful when I put the replacement connector block back in and have to get 4 connections threaded into it!! Brian | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 158 Registered: 7-2010 |
Brian All threads are (or should be) fully parallel right down to the bottom - you should be able to wind in the new hose end with fingers alone right down to the socket base then finish off with only a 1/4 (or maybe 1/3) wrench aided final turn to complete the seal. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2010 |
Brian You've got real problems if wou want to both anneal and flare the old mild steel brake pipe in situ. Go to: http://www.ehow.com/how_4549037_annealing-steel.html for more info. A far beter bet is to trash all existing and replace with annealed 90/10 Cu/Ni tubing. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2010 |
The joining of two tubes of similar diameters, whether they be of the same or of different metals, is really easy if you use the correct fitting. In the UK we call these "Compression Fittings" and they consist of a brass tube body with external threads on either end and with flared internal ends on either end, add on an olive on either side, and finish off with a brass back-nut on either side. Fit the back-nuts first over each tube to be joined, slide on the copper olives then insert the tube into the fitting and wind up the back nuts till all seated. The copper olives(you can get brass olives but the softer copper olives are better as they distort to seal with less torque)deform to both crimp and seal to the inserted tubes. We use this kind of fitting routinely for O2 pressure lines at 3200 to 5000 psi and generally apply to all threads and nuts a PTFE spray to lubricate before winding up. Peter | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 161 Registered: 7-2010 |
Brian I've just reviewed all posts on this topic. Accordingly, I would now suggest that you retain the distal ends of each of the existing tubes with flared ends and cut them off from the main length of the connecting tube whilst keeping suitable lengths of the same flared end tubes to enable you to join them up with a length of new connecting tube using compression fittings as previously detailed. This might not be the "Purist" aim but could be both functional and cost effective. Peter | ||
| Dave Puttock Experienced User Username: ariel Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2010 |
We are getting very deep and hypothetical here. CuNi brake pipe is extremely easy to use, but you must buy pipe that is marketed for brake use. It will come in the correctly annealed state and the swage you are putting on does not require re-annealing. If you want to bend it any tighter than 30mm radius, you can make a tool very simply. I used a washer, from a body mount I think, about 40mm diameter and 3/16" thick. I bolted a slightly bigger washer each side, and you just slip the pipe into the channel and bend by hand. All the tool does is restrict the tube from spreading sideways, and thus going oval. Whatever you do, do not use compresion fittings on steel bundy tube, it is galvanised and even when new does not have a surface finish suitable for hydraulic olives. When old, heaven knows what the finish would be like. I wouldn't recomend joining old to new, but there is no reason why a pipe cant be made in conveniently shorter pieces and use female/female joiners as Rolls Royce did. There are lots on a Shadow, mostly aluminium, but you can pick up brass ones quite easily. Oh and please dont pack with sand, that technique is used when making bends with a radius, less than twice the tube diameter, which you don't need to be doing, also you will never know whether you got every grain out afterwards, it only needs one to ruin your brake seals. | ||
| Peter Talbot Prolific User Username: squerryes Post Number: 162 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dave It is evident we have very different and conflicting views. It is a major attraction of being a member of this Forum that, whilst we might disagree, we continue to remain friends. Peter | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 850 Registered: 9-2004 |
"using compression fittings as previously detailed. This might not be the "Purist" aim but could be both functional and cost effective." If the car was presented for MOT in the UK it would fail due to the fitment of compression joint connectors. quote from the VOSA inspection manual. Repairs to the pressure lines of hydraulic brake systems are unacceptable unless suitable connectors are used. Compression joints of a type using separate ferrules are not suitable. A. All Braking Systems 1. Check for leaks in any part of the braking system with and without the brakes being applied. 2. Check all components for security, condition and operation. Note: It is not always possible to determine the presence and effectiveness of certain types of locking devices e.g. locking fluid or ‘nyloc’ nuts. 3. Check all braking system components for any inappropriate repair or modification. 1. A leak in any part of a braking system. 2. A braking system component: a. insecurely mounted b. excessively weakened by corrosion c. damaged to the extent that its function is impaired d. retaining or locking device missing or insecure. 3. A braking system component inappropriately repaired or modified. |
