| Author | Message | ||
     Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 82 Registered: 8-2003 |
Having recently experienced a flat battery I have undertaken basic testing in an attempt to determine the cause. The battery is new and has been subsequently fully charged with an independent battery charger. Input tests on the battery with the engine running at approximately 900 RPM show 12.1 Volts. All connections have been checked and are clean and secure. Before possibly removing the alternator to be professionally bench tested I wanted to eliminate the chance of a faulty regulator. It has been suggested to me that the CAV regulator contains a 1 amp fuse that is commonly known to fail. The limited in-situ viewing of the item within the near side rear guard does not show any form of access to a fuse. I am happy to remove it for further inspection but would prefer not to just to find no fuse exists. Could someone please if there is in fact a changeable fuse accessed from beneath. My talents as an auto electrician are extremely limited I would appreciate any layman type advice regarding both the alternator and the regulator. Thanks in anticipation, Peter | ||
| Mark Herbstreit Frequent User Username: mark_herbstreit Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Peter. I had a similar problem with my Shadow II. There is a three pin high/low temp sensing regulator behind the battery box that had failed in the low setting. I disconnected it at least ten years ago. Car still charging at 14.2V and no further battery issues. Disconnect it and recheck voltage. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 873 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Peter, No fuses I am afraid. Make sure that the small lead on an eyelet is still connected to the positive battery terminal. There is a terminal marked F on the regulator. If that is earthed you should have uncontrolled charging. Measure the voltage and earth the F briefly to see what the alternator can push out. Try at about 1500 revs instead of 900 when checking. Half the time the alternator is ok but the brushes are worn too short. You can remove and check them easily and we usually just replace them and retest. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 128 Registered: 6-2005 |
Does the ignition light come on when you switch on and does it go off when the engine starts ? If yes to both the regulator is probably OK. | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 84 Registered: 8-2003 |
Gentlemen, thank you for your responses. Mark, I read your post on this subject in the archives and disconnected the leads from the regulator. The voltage didn't change. Paul, I figured that the fuse idea didn't make sense but just wanted confirmation. The eyelet lead is in good condition. I have had an inherent fear of auto electrical tasks since I burnt out the cut out and regulator on my first motorcycle (Norton ES2) in the 1950's. So please excuse my caution in seeking clarification of your advice. Are you saying the test requires me to remove the female connection from the 'F' terminal, insert a wire into it, and earth that to the cars body? John, the ignition lamp does not go off at idle speed which is currently set a little high in order to avoid using the automatic choke which has a bit of a problem. It does go out if the engine is revved. The amp meter shows neither charge or discharge it just sits dead center. I am not sure I have ever seen it do anything other than that. Cheers Peter | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 129 Registered: 6-2005 |
Peter, The ignition lamp going out indicates some voltage being produced by the alternator It's odd that you see no ammeter reading.It could be part of the problem. With the motor idling, when you switch on the headlights does the ammeter register ? If it does, what happens when you increase the revs ? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 875 Registered: 6-2006 |
So please excuse my caution in seeking clarification of your advice. Are you saying the test requires me to remove the female connection from the 'F' terminal, insert a wire into it, and earth that to the cars body? Yes either pull it off or just put an earth to it. That is the signal wire to the alternator to charge or not charge. It is switched to earth on and off thousands of times a minute, the longer it is earthed the higher the output should be. Turn the headlamps on for 10 mins, then start the car. The ammeter should shoot to plus when the red light goes out then move slowly down to zero. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 130 Registered: 6-2005 |
Pulling the wire off Terminal F will prevent any alternator field current and disable the alternator. Earthing Terminal F will cause excessive alternator voltage and should only be done momentarily. Terminal F does not switch but varies in voltage as the resistance of the final transistor changes. A flat battery will reduce current in the first transistor, thus increasing current in the second and allowing increased field current through the third.  | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 85 Registered: 8-2003 |
Gentlemen, thank you for your comments, and more significantly patience which I fear I must tax further. I have undertaken the following processes based on the advice given so far; 1. The engine speed was set at approximately 1300 rpm. 2. Battery power reading whilst disconnected from the car was 12.78 volts. 3. Battery power when connected to the car with only the boot light on was 12.70 volts. 4. With the engine started and idling the reading was 12.30 volts, the ignition light stays on. 5. Single rev on accelerator raised volts to 12.40 the ignition light goes off. 6. Engine stopped and started again, reading is 12.40 volts and the ignition light stays on. 7. ‘F’ lead removed from regulator reading dropped to 12.28 volts. 8. Turned engine off, battery power showed 12.50 volts. 9. Started engine again with ‘F’ connected reading 12.45 volts. 10. Turned engine off, battery still connected to car, reading 12.58 volts. 11. Headlight test; burned lights on high beam for a full 10 minutes with engine off. Battery reading prior to start 12.59 volts. With lights on,12.18 volts. Ammeter showing the very slightest of discharge, to the minus but still almost touching the neutral mark. Battery just before turning lights off and starting engine 12.12 volts. 12. Engine started with lights still on, ammeter showing same minute discharge, ignition light is on for a few seconds and then goes off. 13. Battery showing 12.45 volts with lights off and engine running. 14. Turned engine off, battery still showing 12.45 volts. The battery is new, is always disconnected when the vehicle is not in use. It has been trickle charged continuously since the 'failure to proceed first occurred'. Your further considerations, guidance and advice will be most gratefully received. Peter | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 876 Registered: 6-2006 |
when you say F. connected and disconnected. do you mean from the regulator or to earth? connect to earth then rev engine. it shoud rise to 18 plus volts as you raise tin revs but. don't go higher. if st doesn't . remove alternator and check brushes . | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2005 |
The ammeter should show a discharge of at least ten amps with the headlights on and engine stopped so something is odd there though it may just be an issue with the ammeter shunt. At this stage it is probably worth taking the alternator to an auto electrician and get them to check it out. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 877 Registered: 6-2006 |
 I wasn't drunk , honest .. . posting from my mobile just doesn't work on here! | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2003 |
Many thanks to you all for your advice. My apologies for not responding sooner, circumstance did not permit. I have undertaken each suggestion and so far nothing has made any difference. Shorting out the regulator "F" terminal gave no voltage increase. I have had the alternator bench tested twice by separate auto electricians. Both say it is fine. I am now going to remove the alternator 'again' and take it with the regulator as suggested by one of the electricians for combined bench testing. I don't know if that makes any sense or not but can't think what next to do. Any further suggestions from your good-selves would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Peter | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2003 |
The auto electrician tested the regulator using the alternator and found it to be OK. Unfortunately, to someone of my limited ability he appeared not to have a clear understanding of the terminal set up on the regulator. It was my understanding, possibly erroneously, that terminals HI+ MED+ and LO+ were related to charging regulation based on the information received from the temperature sensors adjacent to the battery, and if they were removed and terminals F A and WL remained connected the battery would subject subject to power coming from the alternator and still charge. The latter tests I have done have been with all the temperature terminals disconnected. Is this correct? I propose to re-install the alternator and regulator and run the tests I have so far done again. If it fails and I have little reason to believe it won't, the car will at least be drivable again and I will take it to the auto electrician to see what else he can find. Regrettably there are few options to where I can take it, and RR type expertise is several hundred kilometers from me. Que Sera, Sera. Peter | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 134 Registered: 6-2005 |
One of the H, M or L inputs must be connected to the battery positive voltage depending on the expected load on the battery. For example if the car is used a lot for night driving H can be selected. The CAV regulator has a self checking feature. If the alternator lamp comes on when the ignition is switched on you can be fairly sure that the regulator is OK. But you really need to check why the ammeter is not working. It may even be you have a constant drain on the battery which you are not seeing. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 903 Registered: 6-2006 |
try a wire straight from the battery positive to the h m and l terminals in turn . check you have continuity to the f terminal from the alternator . make sure you have the two small terminals on the alternator on the right way . earth the f terminal on the alternator. positive battery terminal to the front of the car on a shadow .small ring terminal to the front . | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2003 |
John, many many thanks for your response. You have given me something else to try. Clearly the process I engage in was predominantly futile. I shall redo the checks done so far with one of those terminals connected. I have no idea what I can do to check the ammeter, probably no choice but to pass that one onto the auto electrician if that is the problem. With the engine off, the headlights on, foot on the foot brake and the air conditioner switched on the meter shows a discharge that I would estimate to be 8 - 10 amps. The alternator lamp does come when the ignition is turned on and goes of when the engine fires. Cheers Peter | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2005 |
Peter, I was under the impression that the ammeter was not showing a discharge with the lights on. Apparently not. I suggest you connect the battery positive to the H input on the regulator, switch on the ignition, turn on the headlights to high beam and note the ammeter reading. Then start the engine and see what the ammeter does as you increase the engine revs. If you can get the ammeter into a positive reading there is probably not a problem with the charging circuit. It could be that a slow battery discharge from some other source such as a boot or underbonnet or glovebox lamp not turning off is flattening your battery. Good luck. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 904 Registered: 6-2006 |
couple of other thoughts . have you checked your volt meter against another or on another car. longshot have you tried another battery? | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thanks again Gentlemen. Paul, I will try the things you suggested. The battery is new but I have another and you just never know. John, I have had the car 8 years and from day one ammeter movement was always very slight. I assumed this was quite normal and it has never let me down until recently. On that occasions I had been driving in traffic with frequent stops and starts over a period of a couple hours. It was a friends wedding and I was chauffeuring the bride. The first indication I had of a problem was when I picked the happy couple up from the church, the car had been sitting for about an hour and a half, I had trouble selecting gears to move off. They eventually clicked and I drove to a selected place for photographs. This drive was in traffic and involved several braking stops at traffic lights etc. The climate control was going flat out, it was a hot day. After the photo stop the battery was dead. I got a jump start which was fine. I turned off the climate control and kept the engine running at all times thereafter, delivered the Bride and Groom to their reception then drove 15k home. The battery is always disconnected when the vehicle is not in use. I calculated the discharge rate on the ammeter which has 60- to the left and 60+ to the right of central zero. Each left and right portion has three segments which I assume would represent 20 amps. The needle moved less than half way into the first - segment from zero when I did the tests. I guess my expectation was that with the head lights, brake lights and climate control all on and the engine not running the needle would whack way over to the negative big time. When the engine is running the needle just moves off zero to the positive. Clearly my perception of ammeter function is flawed. Sorry to be so convoluted about this but auto electrics is something I have always avoided. It is only changing circumstances that cause me to engage in what is for me a very, very steep learning curve. I will start over and do the checks suggested and see what comes of it. Unfortunately my wife has expressed a firm wish that I should stop "playing with THAT car" in the lead up to her Birthday on the 22nd and Christmas so I am temporarily stymied but on Boxing Day I will be right back at it. Cheers. Peter | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2005 |
Peter, My sympathy is with your wife in this case. The Shadow does not have a powerful alternator (about 50 Amps max) compared with later cars so journeys with a fair amount of idling, and headlights and air conditioing on will run down the battery fairly quickly particularly if its a few years old. So if your car is mostly used for short trips it's probably advisable to use the H setting on the regulator. The centre needle ammeter is a useful device for an older car as it tells you whether the battery is being charged or discharging. When you start your car and the engine is on fast idle the ammeter should initially show a charging rate of 20 or 30 amps to replace the energy used by the starter motor. As that energy is replaced and the battery voltage increases the regulator will reduce the alternator field current and the charging current will be reduced to 2 or 3 amps. Provided the engine is running at over 1000 rpm (that is not idling ) switching on headlights or aircon will not discharge the battery as the regulator will increase the alternator field current to compensate. Rather than disconnecting the battery when not using the car I suggest you buy a trickle charger from an autoshop and keep it connected. It will maintain the battery at full charge and increase its life. A 4 amp trickle charger is not expensive and automatically reduces the charging rate as the battery reaches full charge. Regards, John | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1169 Registered: 4-2003 |
A note of caution here - a trickle charger is not the automatic choice for this application as many of the budget price trickle chargers on the market are not appropriate. What is required is a charger that has a "float charge" setting; a standard charger has a setting around 14.8V which will quickly charge the battery with the evolution of hydrogen gas from breakdown of the battery acid at this voltage. A float charge occurs around 13.2 volts which is below the threshold for breakdown of the electrolyte so there is no loss of battery acid over time which will be the case if a charger without a "float" capability is used. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 137 Registered: 6-2005 |
Be that as it may but for the past six years with the same battery I have been using an Arlec trickle charger which cost about 40 dollars. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 905 Registered: 6-2006 |
Is yours labeled as a smart charger John? I am a great believer in MAINTENANCE battery chargers. A must for 1983 ish onwards but all cars benefit. If you are in an area that has occasional power outs (even for 1 second ) go for an opttimate because they restart automatically when the power comes back on. Trickle chargers of the old type are not suitable for 24¥/7 use. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 141 Registered: 6-2005 |
No Paul it is not a smart charger. I've long since lost the documentation but it is labelled 4 AMP RMS and 2.4 AMP DC. I've never seen it charge more than about 1 AMP and after a few hours it settles down to around 0.3 AMP at 14.1 Volt. The battery is an Optima 34M and is over 8 years old. While its float voltage of 13.2 - 13.8 is a bit below 14.1 it doesn't seem to have done any harm during the six years I have had the charger which is sometimes connected for 2 to 3 weeks at a time. I probably should use one of the CTEK smart chargers which have come down in price here recently but it's hard to justify after 6 years with no problems. I think though after the present battery gives up I will get a smart charger to go with the new one. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2007 |
Rather than begin a new thread I'll post my Shadow I alternator question here. I'm in Sydney away from my tools and manuals and with limited internet access to the online manuals downloads. My battery died yesterday and was replaced by the NRMA battery roadside van. The guy tested everything and gave me a nice printout of the results. No leakages, starter etc. fine but no charging from the alternator. Before replacing the alternator what should I test; the regulator? the ammeter shunt? What is the easiest thing to do to get me home -or at least to Moss Vale? I drove the car for about two hours with the new battery and fully charged it overnight. SRH200280 1974 Shadow series one. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 926 Registered: 6-2006 |
No charging at all? No Gen light on? No +ve charge on ammeter? Belt OK? Tight? Make sure that the small lead on an eyelet is still connected to the positive battery terminal. There is a terminal marked F on the regulator. If that is earthed you should have uncontrolled charging. Measure the voltage and earth the F briefly to see what the alternator can push out. Try at about 1500 revs instead of 900 when checking. Half the time the alternator is ok but the brushes are worn too short. You can remove and check them easily and we usually just replace them and retest. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 357 Registered: 5-2007 |
Eyelet connected. Gen light comes on briefly at start. Belt tight.F connector does not illuminate test light (screwdriver type - all I have on me at the moment). Ammeter disconnected years ago and replaced with coolant gauge. I'll get a local auto-electrician to test the voltage on F and the ammeter shunt wires tomorrow if it'd be useful but I'll probably just risk the 2 hour drive to MossVale instead on Thursday. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 144 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeffrey, With no tools or meter you are certainly at a disadvantage. It's unusual for both the battery and charging system to fail at the same time so I hope the technician was correct in replacing the battery. It may have gone flat only because of charging system failure. How old was it ? Under the circumstances It is probably best to drive to the nearest auto electrician and get them to check it out. Especially with the current bushfire situation. John | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 928 Registered: 6-2006 |
Keep everything but the engine turned off and you should be ok. Can you charge up your old battery to as a spare? Bushfires are not good at any time - neither is 40 degrees and air con off  | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 90 Registered: 8-2003 |
Good luck with it Jeffrey. I was advised by an esteemed Melbourne RR auto electrician that with a full battery and like Paul said everything turned off I would make it the 600 kilometers from Mildura to Bayswater OK. I’m not too sure about that over such a distance. I definitely would want the second battery. However I am still trying to sort my problem out locally and have re-installed the alternator without its backing plate, and the regulator, both of which have been bench tested as OK, and am taking the car to the local bloke to run on car tests in the next few days. Currently I think I have tried everything I can myself and can not get enough of a charge at the battery. One thing I have not done and don’t really understand is test the ‘ammeter shunt’. Can someone please tell me how this is done? Can I do it myself? Where is it? Cheers Peter | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 358 Registered: 5-2007 |
Battery was 3 years old and thus due for replacement -an expensive dual function type I kept religiously on maintenance charge using one of the CTEK Bentley branded chargers. For 9 months of last year though the car was in and out of ovens while it sat being painted at the workshop. I'll leave the drive to Moss Vale till the fires have passed - let alone the 600klms home into even deadlier weather conditions. Unfortunately the NRMA guy kept the old battery. | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 91 Registered: 8-2003 |
Back again. As a final ‘home check’ before going to the auto electrician (again) I swapped the brand spanking new battery with one off my XJ6 which was showing 14+v when charging on that car. The charging rate when put on the RR was about 12.75 @ 800 rpm which was pretty much the same as the 'new' battery. I have run all my tests at about 800 rpm. On re-reading the Forum comments I realise that the rpm should have been higher. Running at 1100 rpm the charging rate at the battery is 13.77 to 13.81v The battery itself was holding 12.64v (both batteries)when disconnected. Being of the old school and historically working on far less sophisticated vehicles I have a habit of having my cars run at the lowest possible idle speed whilst still running smoothly. The Rolls does this down to about 650 rpm. Is 13.77 – 13.81v still too low a charging rate? Is it possible that slow town traffic running and idling could flatten the battery in half an hour with all the bells and whistles going flat out, and that the fault was not an electrical one but one of the overall idle/running speed being too low for the alternator to be able to compensate for the discharge rate? or am I just wishfully thinking! Thanks in anticipation, Peter | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 145 Registered: 6-2005 |
Peter, Reference my Dec 18 posting are you using the H control input on the regulator ? John | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 92 Registered: 8-2003 |
John, currently I have all three connected and that is how I did the last test. Previously I tested with each one disconnected and the reading were all too low. However I was only idling at 800rpm. I have not tried again at higher rpm's but will do so tomorrow to see what happens. I truly appreciated your previous posts though your wiring diagram was a tad to advanced for my ever failing and simple brain. Regards Peter | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 146 Registered: 6-2005 |
Peter, I'm afraid that having all three inputs connected is the same as having L on its own. Disconnect L and M leaving only H connected to the battery and do your measurements again. John | ||
| Billy Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.4.27.43 |
Peter Couldn't resist my 'two-pennys' worth..... Although not having read every word in all comments, you do seem to hover around the 12v area; if 14v or thereabouts is not there I suggest that just about does it for the alternator/generator. Save yourself any more aggro and fit exchange unit (you don't seem to mention age of the unit- that might be a clue. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2003 |
John, just ran a test with only H connected to the regulator the input results were as follows: 800rpm 12.88 - 12.95v; 900rpm 13.41 - 13.43v; 1000rpm 14.05 - 14.09v; 1100rpm 14.22 - 14.28v; 1200rpm 14.25 - 14.28v; At 1200rpm with the air conditioner and headlights on the reading drops to 12.53 - 12.56v. What do you think. Thanks Peter Billy, thanks for your comment but the alternator has been bench tested by two independent auto electricians and found to be in excellent condition. | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 147 Registered: 6-2005 |
Peter, I think the new readings are reasonable for the car. Because the alternator has less output than a modern car several short trips with a high amount of idling will tend to run the battery down, especially with lights and aircon on. You should certainly buy a maintenance charger (following David and Paul's advice for a 'smart' type) and keep it connected when not using the car. A suitable model is available from Jaycar http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MB3604 There should be a socket in the boot for this purpose. This ensures the battery remains fully charged and also extends its life. Regards, John | ||
| Peter Dixon Frequent User Username: petenlinid Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2003 |
Many thanks for that John. Clearly my practice of starting the car and letting it idle to warm up every two or three weeks would probably steadily drained the battery. The car is an excellent first turn of the key starter. On the day it failed it must have been all but flat at start off and the 20 minute drive top town would probably not been sufficient drive time to boost it before trolling around the urban maize for a couple of hours. I have a trickle charger but shall also purchase one of those you recommend. Once again thanks to you and all other contributor to the subject. Peter | ||
| Billy Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.4.27.43 |
Hello Peter (again) Thanks for your note, much appreciated. Don't do yourself down ("My talents.... extremely limited")- you have done very well; batteries and associated gear can send anyone loopy. I see from your latest 14v has made an appearance, that does leave me high-and-dry to be honest. Just a mention of BATTERIES. I fitted Bosch battery (830A / 95Ah), supplied by local (excellent)specialist sourced from Bently dealer which consistently went flat with no drain other than the clock. A high-discharge test (as you do) was positive BUT by discharging at a known rate over time it proved not to hold/deliver the rated capacity. Replaced under warranty, OK three+ yrs later. p.s.... If you are committed to an event maybe carry a fully charged spare, it will at least get you out of the doo doo; belt-and-braces old boy! Just a thought. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 359 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well I made it home via a visit to Moss Vale. So for what the information is worth to anyone finding themselves in a similar predicament ... --The electrician re-checked the battery and this time it was overcharging -- an exact opposite result to the previous NRMA printout. --A new CAV regulator was hooked up and then tested with everything proving OK. --This indicated (fairly clearly) that the problem was with the regulator which had "boiled" the battery by overcharging. --I drove the 500klms home with the air-conditioner etc. on with no electrical problems. --I discussed replacing the brushes with the electrician and he said to keep an eye on the charging situation and if it was variable this would be the next step. I've owned the car for 5 years and have no idea when they were last replaced so I've put this on the 'preventative maintenance' schedule in any case for the near future. My suggestion would be that if you don't know the condition of the CAV regulator or the alternator in your car a spare regulator and alternator brushes should be considered as parts for the 'spares' kit carried in the boot for long trips away from home or knowledgeable RR friends. With (once again!) much thanks for the helpful advice provided here. Jeff | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2007 |
Here,for reference, is a photo of inside of the failed CAV regulator in my Shadow 1. I'm not sure if it's the same one used on the Shadow 2 but this one definitely has a fuse. It could presumably be repaired if you had ready access to the components - although the resistor colour coding bands are difficult to read because of the red lacquer. Note in this regulator it is not the fuse that has blown. It is easily removed; just undo the 2 screws at the front and it slides out. If anyone comes across the list of components for this device (resistor ratings etc.) anywhere I'd appreciate the information to have a go at repairing this as a spare.  | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1184 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeffrey, the regulator is a 12 volt version of the CAV440 Regulator which was supplied in 12V for automotive applications and 24V for marine and industrial engines. You might find a circuit diagram by searching for "CAV type 440 12volt regulator circuit diagram". Bill Coburn had an article in a 2003 edition of Tee One Topics which included a reference to replacement circuit boards and successful replacement of a failed power transistor in this regulator but no specific details which would help you. If you know a friendly auto electrician from the 1970 era, they might have a circuit diagram stored away or know where to get one as CAV were owned by Lucas and a lot of UK-manufactured industrial/marine engines used this regulator. | ||
| Jeffrey McCarthy Grand Master Username: jefmac2003 Post Number: 362 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thankyou David, I've done a bit of obscure electrical diagram searching (successfully) with regards to restoring the original Blaupunkt radio so I have an idea where to start looking. Meanwhile these components appear to still be readily available (for now) at a reasonable price. Here are a couple I've found over the last few days: http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/0-830-12-electronic-regulator-for-12v-alternator-4382-p.asp http://www.esussexautoelectricspares.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1066517-1697D220.html Still, if I can find a circuit diagram, I'll post it for posterity. Incidentally the other side of the unit photographed above would show a standard type printed (etched?) circuit board with soldered connections. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2012 |
I had a strange occurence the other evening. I was driving down the interstate in SRX18501 at 65/70 mph when the ammeter showed +20 amps, the headlights and panel lights glowed noticeably brighter and there was a loud "pop" from the trunk. The "pop" was due to the battery cover plate on 3 of the cells being blown off. Fortunately the acid spill was limited to the top of the battery and was easily cleaned off. Obviously an overcharge condition. Since then, I have not had a recurrence and the system has reverted to it's normal impeccable self. I have read this thread and will carry out the tests mentioned above this weekend. Here's my question - before ordering a replacement Lucas C.A.V 440 (many thanks to Jeffrey for the link), could this fault be caused by anything other than a faulty regulator. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 254 Registered: 6-2009 |
I'm not certain whether this could be a factor in your issue, but be sure to check your battery temperature sensor. See Tee-One Topics, Issue 44, page 657 (PDF page 8). I think this little doo-dad is covered elsewhere as well in Tee-One Topics. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2012 |
Thanks for that Brian. I will check it out during my investigation this weekend. My car is a late series 1 so it may have this sensor. On checking the Tee-one topics I also came across an article, 28-393 by Warwick Grigg which indicates the possibility of a faulty power transister. He does mention in the article that he has found a suitable replacement, but does not mention what it is. If anyone knows of a suitable replacement power transister I would be very interested. It also occurs to me if the wire to the F terminal is leaking/shorting to ground then this would cause the observed fault. The insulation on the wires of my car is quite brittle and I have come across two wires where the insulation has left small gaps of the wire showing. The choke solenoid wires was a case in question. I may have a similar problem with the F terminal wire. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 968 Registered: 6-2006 |
Also check the small cable to the positive battery terminal, if that is off or broken it will also cause it to over charge. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hi Paul My car is a 74 SY1 and I believe it does not have this small cable. I have checked the series 1 and 2 wiring diagrams and they confirm this. I can see that on the series 2 the wire goes to the H terminal on the regulator. On the series 1 the H terminal picks up it's supply from the starter motor solenoid. I guess this also confirms that there is no battery temp sensor on the series 1. I was going to remove the trunk trim panel this weekend to check for it's existence however since there is no wire anyway I can take it that there will be no temp sensor. | ||
| Brian Vogel Prolific User Username: guyslp Post Number: 255 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Sorry, I used the thread title as my frame of reference. You're correct that the "one series" cars don't have the battery temperature sensor. Unfortunately, I got nothin' for ya at this time on your latest issue. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2012 |
Brian, I'm always grateful for all the help and suggestions from yourself, Paul and all the other guru's on this website. It makes owning a classic Rolls Royce so easy. | ||
| Geoff Wootton Frequent User Username: dounraey Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2012 |
Jeffrey - thanks for the link re: http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/0-830-12-electronic-regulator-for-12v-alternator-4382-p.asp The part arrived last week. Took 10 mins to fit and has sorted an over-charge problem I was having. I've put the company on my suppliers list. | ||
| Colin Silver Prolific User Username: colsilver Post Number: 156 Registered: 8-2008 |
I've fallen foul of a flat battery - through lack of use (or it was on the shelf too long and that added to it). Bought it 3 years ago - A Century Deep Cycle that they recommend for old Hilda (SC1) I see above John's recommendation of a maintenance charger. I presume I connect this while Hilda is in the garage and all will be good. But I wonder, with the Jaycar product, if it will cope with the large deep cycle truck battery I have? Married my 3rd son off in Hilda the other day in the Dandenong mountains. Great night. Scraped my overriders twice through carelessness. I want a maintenance charger that will do the job. Sparkie son who is into all things with engines says CTek. Ideas? | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1050 Registered: 6-2006 |
the maintenance chargers do not have to have a high output as they are not charging a low or flat battery but to keep a battery charged up. If you have any drops in mains voltages or your house fuse goes, the ctek and many other brands turn off when power is cut or dropped, even for a fraction of a second. This means that you can get back to your car after a couple of months thinking that the charger has been on only to find a flat battery and a charger that is off. Typically if the charger has a setting button that you need to press once connected it will not be suitable for non power sure areas. We always use optimate chargers for this reason. Even the joy output bike one is ok to keep a car charged but will take a week or more to charge a nearly flat battery. All the ones that I have come across will not charge totally flat batteries. They need to read a voltage before they start charging. Some are made for calcium batteries. Optimate 5 I think from memory. If you are in the UK we normally stock them. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1296 Registered: 4-2003 |
Colin, Paul's advice re avoiding chargers that remain off after a power supply interruption is the second most important consideration after ensuring the charger has a "floating charge mode". The Jaycar battery charger catalogue number MB3623 appears to cover these requirements as well as charging your truck battery. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1052 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi David, Not sure if it's different terminology but over here a float charger is different from a maintenance charger. The maintenance charger operates like a float charger but is more intelligent. Float chargers (most chargers) do a fast charge and then tail off as the battery gets towards fully charged. But they never really fully charge and they are not usually suitable for 24/7/365 use. A 'proper' maintenance charger will charge it using the float system or a more complex version, then switch to a slightly higher voltage to get it to 100% charge and then the most important bit . . . once fully charged it switches to a maintenance mode. You need to look for a 3 stage (or more ) type charger. They turn off and let the battery rest for about 1/2 an hour and then rechecks the battery to see what is going on. It will then either switch off for another 1/2 hour, charge the battery if it's low, or give a tiny charge rate if there are alarms, radios etc which are taking a load. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1297 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Paul, I think they are the same but we use the different name in the Antipodes - the battery charges normally until it is fully charged and then goes into float mode where charge continues at a voltage high enough to keep the battery fully charged but low enough to prevent out-gassing and consequent loss of electrolyte over time [around 13.5/14V if my memory is correct]. The charger can be viewed on the following link: http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=MB3623 | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 484 Registered: 1-2008 |
Not the same thing, but I've currently got a couple of battery chargers (plus a third that needs repairing) that I use for various duties. The larger of them has a nominal 11 amps max. output, but will happily blow a 20 amp fuse! However for normal use I don't flip the Hi/Lo switch and just leave it on a max. output of 4 amps. When this one is attached to the several leisure batteries in my touring caravan or remote garage (no permanent mains supply) it will exhibit different states depending on how recently they have been charged. As you would expect it will normally charge at a reducing rate until it sees about 90% charge or better and then drop back to a trickle of under 1 amp. However if the batteries are seriously drained it will start at under 1 amp while illuminating the 'battery charged' LED. Only after a while will it push a decent current into the batteries as per a normal charge. Which reminds me: I'll go & get the broken charger out and strip it down. What's the betting that it's a blown bridge rectifier? I hope so as I've got a couple of heavy duty ones just waiting to be used. | ||
| Colin Silver Prolific User Username: colsilver Post Number: 160 Registered: 8-2008 |
Appreciate the advice from all. I envisign a charger (whatever name) that is not a normal battery charger - but one that will kick in when nature depletes the battery. I think the Jaycar's would be the go, but I couldn't find/understand if they'd handle the truck type battery I have. Yeah, it is 12 volts. But I want to keep it in good condition while not being used - say as if it was being used daily. It is around 700 cold cranking amps. Given the ammeter readings in my SCI after the 3 jump starts I had over my sons wedding (3 nights of non-use) and long generator charging in between - 3 hours driving a day - and seeing the ammeter hovering under 5 amps after 15 minutes (not hanging around at 15 amps) - I think the battery has been cooked. (Sorry for long sentence) I'm thinking - when I work out the right 'maintenance charger' to use, is to charge my battery, then use the maintenance charger. If no luck, the battery is stuffed and I will replace it. David, do you think your recommendation would be the best choice? Ctek have still to answer my question about what is the best to sustain a 12V 700 CCA battery over a 2-3 month period without use. I'm looking for a lifetime solution to this. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1299 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Colin, The Jaycar charger is a good all-round solution for automotive, truck and marine batteries. The 15Amp charging capacity is more than adequate for fast-charging when necessary and the 2A/7Amp alternatives are ideal for slow charging. Your 700CCA battery is a typical 4WD battery and there are no problems charging it with a standard battery charger. The CCA rating has nothing to do with battery charging; it only refers to the actual current the battery is capable of delivering when starting the engine at low temperatures. As a general rule, the higher the amperage when charging; the greater is the possibility of damaging the plates especially with older batteries. I prefer to use a slow charge of 5Amps or less for this reason and only use a high charge if time is short and there is no other alternative. The price of the charger reflects its versatility and features and I suggest you would not be disappointed if you purchase it. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 1054 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Colin, as David says, it will more than cope with charging your battery. Do confirm before purchase, with them or any other prospective supplier, that it can be left on for months/years on end though. |
