T1 Failure to Proceed Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Australian RR Forums » Silver Shadow Series » T1 Failure to Proceed « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
Yet to post message
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 03 July, 2012 - 05:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm new to the forums and RR ownership. I became custodian of a 1972 T in October 2011 (SBH10970). Since then I have been 'baptised' in ways that come with RR ownership or, if we are completely honest, classic car ownership;
-- A steep bill for repair of things I can't manage myself and
-- an unfolding saga of failing to proceed.

At this stage I don't begrudge either.

Thanks to the initial repair bill things had been going well until one day I set out for a picnic. Car loaded with people and picnic fare we drove up a hill, the car over-revved and lost power before it flamed-out and subsequently the engine stopped. Much like when a lawnmower runs out of petrol. It re-started fine only to happen again. The diagnosis was a crook fuel pump which I have duly replaced with an electronic one as recommended by my mechanic. I have the original fuel pump and intend to put it back on the car. I now have the ability to take my time on the rebuild. The pump replacement appeared to resolve all issues.

I've done barely 20 kms since the fuel pump changeover when another bout of engine stoppages have begun. These are different in nature and appear to me to be very similar to those described in "Shadow 2 failure to proceed" (link below)

http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/11792.html

Unlike the fuel pump affair in this case the engine just silently stops firing. A loss of engine power subsequently occurs and eventually the gen lamp followed by other lamps come on and the power steering looses its goodness. Once the car has been placed into park the engine starts again without issue and for a few seconds there is a slight smell of petrol in the cabin. This problem of engine stopping manifested itself only under excessive acceleration and within 50km of use it became more regular and now occurs at seemingly regular yet random intervals under any circumstance.

Leading up to this issue the car had been stored outside for 6 weeks under a car cover instead of a garage as it is used to (under my custodianship). It is now back in the garage. While under the car cover the interior became obviously moist. The car used to leak like a sieve but these holes have been plugged and the interior dried as much as possible. I can't tell if moisture has invaded the fuel tank. The 50% full tank was filled to capacity and the issue remains. On the morning when the issues began the speedometer failed (not the odometer) until the car warmed up (it was a cold day). I have not seen the speedomoeter fail before then. I'm not sure if these problems are related. The speedo continued to work for the rest of the weekend without issue.

Now the questions;
Is it possible this is the same issue as with the aforementioned Shadow 2? I don't know if the equipment is the same in both models. Also I don't have a ticking noise behind the dash.

If not, what can I do to troubleshoot this issue?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry about the length of the post. I'm not sure what detail is important.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Experienced User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 03 July, 2012 - 09:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bradley

You have my sympathy, I also am a new owner of a R R when i bought my car a year ago i started replaceing all service items plugs plug leads distributer cap rotor arm coil etc, I also had a specialist check my carburaters and tune them, my car was turning into a nightmare, then i read a post about BALLAST RESISTER Bingo what a releif such a cheap fix, The Shadow 11 article you refer too was sorted with an oil pressure switch not an expensive item, I would replace both of these it would be a worthwhile thing to d
o hope this helps.

Regards.

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
New User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 04 July, 2012 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

Thanks for the tip. I like looking for the easy or simple things first. There can't be much wrong as the expensive bits work just fine when it's running.

This is why I was thinking maybe poor fuel or water in the fuel. I've never seen fuel issues elsewhere but would have thought I'd see spluttering and the like (I don't). There would need to be an awful lot of water in the tank. There is no gradient of running. It's on and then it's off.

Deeper thoughts have lead to the car being out of tune or having potential issues with the automatic choke. I'd discounted the ignition system because it runs smooth once started. I didn't know about the ballast resistor.

The Shadow II article has put in my mind a potential situation where the car might be putting itself into "safe mode". Which, in this more complex situation, I've either got a real problem (I doubt) or the sensors are triggering improperly (more likely).

Could a lower than full oil reading have anything to do with the problem? I found the oil had dropped to between half and three quarters full. After topping it up the problem remained.

I'm still open to discussion about how to troubleshoot this issue yet I think I will have a look at what it takes to change both the ballast resistor and the oil pressure switch.

For those don't know what a ballast resistor is (like me);
http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/ballastresistor.htm
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
New User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 04 July, 2012 - 09:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I might be taking the fun out of this for everyone but I'm settling on the issue being oil pressure or the oil pressure switch...

Jan Forrest's comment in the below thread adds weight to a Shadow I "safe mode" in the event of a low oil pressure signal. This appears to be consistent with the engine ignition turning off rather than being running rough, reduced power, running out of fuel or spluttering.

The behaviour makes sense as in the T/S.S. there is no oil pressure indicator lamp or gauge. Oil pressure alerts are still important in modern cars so it would be odd to ignore such an important statistic. The decision appears to have been don't indicate it, do something about it (ergo, turn the car off immediately).

http://http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/11929.html

So, course of action; Replace the oil pressure switch and double-check/replace the ballast resistor. Watching it all closely in case the oil system is actually broken.

I'll report back sometime on the outcome.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 349
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Saturday, 07 July, 2012 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Since the link in Bradley's response isn't working and I cannot find the thread by hand I'm going to give you a rough & ready tip for this problem. Try to run a separate power feed to the pump directly from the battery to see if the engine continues to run.
BE WARNED that this is only for testing purposes as the oil pressure switch may be still good and telling you that there isn't enough pressure to run the engine for more than a few minutes at idle only!
Fortunately new oil pressure switches aren't expensive and easily available from the usual suspects. However it may be that the electrical connection is loose or corroded and might respond to being cleaned and tightened.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
New User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 16 July, 2012 - 09:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Sorry, there's an extra http in there... All fixed.

http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17001/11929.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
New User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 02 August, 2012 - 06:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, Jan and other interested parties,

I've followed up on the advice provided in an attempt to get my car back to some semblance of reliability. It's taken me a while as I was interstate for a time.

The mystified look on my face must have been worthwhile when I learned my car doesn't have the oil pressure sensing equipment as described above. So, although a neat solution, it can't be my problem.

The confusion is understandable as I've fallen in the gap. The classic Silver Shadow (Shadow I) had two mechanical configurations, pre-1969 (6.2L - 4 speed) and 1969 onwards (6.75L - 3 speed GM400). My car is a 1972 model which has a mechanical configuration between, and thus different to, the pre-1969 (6.2L - 4 speed) Shadow and the 1977 onwards Shadow II. Apparently later cars, for example the Shadow II, have the sophisticated oil sensor and shutdown mode. I continually make mistakes as to which equipment is on cars of which era. Also, I often find my car has been modified eg; Apparently I have electronic ignition, relay high-beam headlight switches, modern starter motor, among other things...

Upon conferring with my mechanic we devised an approach to figure whether the problem is fuel or electrical. Attaching a lamp between the positive of the coil and earth, wired to be visible through the windscreen while driving, I was able to watch for a situation where the electricity went out upon fail to proceed. This could help discover an electrical fault or fuel problem.

An issue has been discovered and is yet to be confirmed as the source:-
The discovery came while attaching the lamp in a setting where I was about to brave city roads in an effort to cause the fault and so potentially upset traffic.

The spade connectors on the wire (female ends) connecting to the coil are less than snug on the male terminals. In fact the negative is decidedly loose. Some light fiddling has demonstrated that the wire in its current state can cause operating inconsistencies. After manipulating the connections, putting a number of hours on the car and potentially in the order of 150 to 200 kms of varied driving conditions and styles the issue has not re-surfaced.

Although I don't trust the current situation, I have a strong suspicion that when I replace the female spade connectors with properly fitting ones this issue will disappear.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

richard george yeaman
Experienced User
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Thursday, 02 August, 2012 - 08:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Bradley.

That is great, will keep my fingers crossed.

Richard.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Thomas
Experienced User
Username: davidthomas

Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, 03 August, 2012 - 05:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Brad

This is exactly a problem I had with my Shadow five years ago. Loose connections to the coil. New connectors and some tape and never a problem since.

Good luck!

David
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jan Forrest
Grand Master
Username: got_one

Post Number: 371
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 05 August, 2012 - 09:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bradley: You've come across the major problem with identifying which components have been quietly upgraded throughout the relatively long production period for the Shadow 1. By the last year, 1976, the only real differences between the Series 1 and 2 are:

rack & pinion steering
some minor instrument layout changes
different bumpers
a Shadow II badge on the boot lid.

All this makes parts replacement difficult unless you can identify the specific component before ordering.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
New User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 06 August, 2012 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Thanks for the support. It appears as though 35+ years of making lightening and being vibrated is enough to fatigue the wiring on and around the coil. And they claim to be the best in the world... :-)

As this has happened on both our cars maybe this is an issue that plagues shadows that has been overlooked due to being too simple. A complex attack would likely solve it as replacing resistors and coils is likely to resolve wiring issues as a side effect.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
New User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 06 August, 2012 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan,

The major differences I agree are as you've stated. There appears to be a wide range of subtle yet important differences that separate cars as the years roll by. As you state these differences are where it is dangerous to talk generically about shadows 1 and 2.

The mechanical configuration on shadow 2 seems to have settled into some form of consistency. Shadow 1 seems to be quite variable. Then you need to consider the upgrades and modifications generations of owners have made. I'm continually surprised as to what on my car is not from the factory. All changes are so far for the betterment of enjoying the car. For example modern starter motor, electronic ignition, electronic fuel pump. The list goes on.

1972 appears to have been a nexus of change in automotive from changing laws to better technology and equipment. Seatbelt rules and MPH/kph changeover appear to be two changes my car was torn between. I was born in1978 so I don't remember the times. There is no doubt as I learn about my car I find more and more things that indicate a schizophrenic time in the industry.

Thanks for the advice and coaching. Your opinion is highly respected on the forums. I look forward to getting further input on whatever goes wrong next.

Brad
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
Experienced User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Sunday, 23 December, 2012 - 03:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Everyone,

This seems to have stabilised.

I found a female spade connector on the coil was mis-fitted. The connectors had been kept together by the neoprene/rubber boot that fits over the female connector. eg; the male fitting was next to, not inside, the female connector.

To fix this I re-fitted the female connector over the male ensuring the connection was proper (male ACTUALLY inside female, not next to it). I've not had a fail to proceed since.

Thanks for all the troubleshooting and etcetera.

Brad
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 23 December, 2012 - 04:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

We are glad that you have recorded the juxtaposition of the two connectors. I am too old to worry about such things these days but from an academic point of view it did revive some pleasant memories!!!

As someone said ' but for a hapeneth of tar the ship went down'. Finding these little bits of bastardry is probably the best filip of all in this game!!

And the best of the Season to all of you and thanks for the contributions you have all made. Long may it continue way past the final attacks of indigestion that the cucumber sandwich munchers experience!!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Randy Roberson
Frequent User
Username: wascator

Post Number: 75
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, 24 December, 2012 - 05:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"To fix this I re-fitted the female connector over the male ensuring the connection was proper (male ACTUALLY inside female, not next to it). I've not had a fail to proceed since."

There's something here that piques one's interest; I can't quite grasp it, though...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1175
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 24 December, 2012 - 08:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy, dare I say your first name has a special meaning to those of us in Oz as a colloquialism describing a certain state of mind of many males.

Just a reminder to those of us who have to remember past deeds rather than being able to repeat them image1.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradley van Ree
Experienced User
Username: bradbase

Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Monday, 24 December, 2012 - 09:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

From the reaction I've had it seems I should have finished with "and then I had a cigarette".

It was certainly men who invented the language involved...

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Please quote Chassis Numbers for all vehicles mentioned.
Password:
E-mail:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: