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Matthew Hunt
New User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Saturday, 30 June, 2012 - 07:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

good evening all,

I have a 72 Shadow, SRH14223, that has an electrical fault.

The car has failed to proceed since 20th jan this year, and it is really beginning to upset me now.

I am so desperate for help.

When I turn the ignition key fuse 12 is blowing. it goes at the 2nd key stage, when the ignition lights illuminate, before cranking the starter.

I've had an auto electrician come and look at it, and he ran a mile and never came back, and currently I have a friend I recently met who is a mechanic, who is persevering with it.

bear in mind I have no automotive electric ability at all.......

We've tried isolating each and every component but the fuse still fails.

Our last hope is the kick down switch and solenoid, but we cant find where they are, so if anybody could point me in the right direction that would be great.

we are also worried that whilst the diagrams we have are genuine RR, they dont match up with my car.

the reason is because of what we have found.

the car has an after market immobiliser installed, that is in line at the back of the fuse box. it is wired into one of the two white's that run from fuse 12. We are finding that if we remove the immobiliser from the circuit we are getting continuity from both the choke solenoid, and also the starter, AND the vacuum solenoid?? when connecting ONE of the two whites, but NONE when trying the other side. My friend is baffled as the diagram shows at least one of these items to be on either side of the circuit.

If anyone could shed some light on this I would be eternally grateful.

And lastly (my final hope), are there any Shadow electrical gurus that live within a manageable drive to Parkdale 3195?

I am so in despair with this that I am hoping to find an angel somewhere........

thanks

Matthew
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David Thomas
Experienced User
Username: davidthomas

Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, 30 June, 2012 - 07:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Matthew

I have sent you a private email with some professional recommendations on who may be able to help you.
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Hubert Kelly
Experienced User
Username: h_kelly

Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2012
Posted on Saturday, 30 June, 2012 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Matthew, im the worlds worst at auto electrical stuff it takes me hours to figure it out.You probably already know this, fuse 12 is attached to the ignition, petrol pumps, choke and kick down. Correct me if im wrong, but is the kick down switch on the driver side(rhd) of the carbs(tiny switch two wires?). You aren't by any chance getting a positive earth on the 2nd turn of key(say cross wire) causing fuse to blow?. you mentioned the "car failed to proceed" is their any chance the petrol pump or indeed the (petrol pump points are sticking causing fuse to blow?????)
good luck with it.
hk
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 120
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Sunday, 01 July, 2012 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew,
A likely cause of Fuse 12 blowing is a short circuited choke solenoid. Disconnect it and see.
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Matthew Hunt
New User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2012 - 07:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

John, I received your email, and will hopefully call you after I've finished on the stock take at work today.

I had the fuel pumps disconnected, so I think I've ruled that one out. I think I sort of know which item the choke solenoid is, but not being an automotive guru I could be looking at the wrong thing.

Thanks again

Matthew
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1401
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2012 - 09:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew/ The choke solenoid is as visible as the regenerative jewellery on a cattle dog. The mess of stuff on top of the engine includes a carburettor either side and on the left side facing forward is a round black painted projection with an asbestos clad pipe entering it. Above this and slightly closer to the centre of the engine is a plate held on by two screws. Entering the plate are two wires. These may simply enter through two small holes or they may be connected in a little terminal block under a black painted haystack shaped cover secured by a steel spring clip. Either way that is the solenoid.

If you have the later plain mounting plate there will be two pull-apart connectors on the wires, otherwise push the spring clip aside and carefully disconnect the two wires from the terminal block thereunder.

A note to onlookers of the problem, the wires that pass through the mounting plate rely solely on the their insulation to not short on the plate itself. Amazingly after 40 years of engine vibration the insulation is breached!!!
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 122
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2012 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew,
Here is the Choke Solenoid.
Remove both wires at connectors.



Choke Solenoid
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Matthew Hunt
New User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2012 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks guys

Now I know what the choke solenoid is I can try to figure it out.

Mine has a plastic cap that is held on by a clip. Under the cap there are two small brass blocks, and two wires under each of those blocks. From memory there is a black and a white under each block, and one of the whites is joined onto the top of the main component, that I am assuming to be the choke itself.

I'll post a pic tonight

Thanks a bunch
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Matthew Hunt
New User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2012 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And just to add - i did discover that the starter solenoid is on its way out, the spade connector for the live supply fell off when we moved it so i need to source a new one

does anyone know where I can find one in Melbourne?

And finally, the fuse still blows when the starter solenoid is unplugged

thanks
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 316
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2012 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew - have you tried Chapman's Automotive in Bayswater? Bob usually has such parts available or can source them fairly easily.
http://www.rachapmanautomotive.com.au/
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Matthew Hunt
New User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Tuesday, 03 July, 2012 - 08:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello all,

Here is a pic of my choke solenoid

[IMG]http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/acebassuk_photos/f9b5a0a2.jpg[/IMG]

I am really confused because I appear to have many more wires than the previous pic posted.

I disconnected blk, blk, wht, blu/wht (all at the same time, but fuse still popped.

on the example pic, there are none of these wires

Comments would be appreciated

thanks

Matthew

PS Called Bob Chapman, unfortuntely he doesnt stock starter solenoids any longer.

PPS I am supposed to be a (moderately)clever bloke, spent many years helping companies understand how to leverage the best return from their investment in IT. Why cant I figure out a problem with a few wires?
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 317
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 03 July, 2012 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew. does your starter solenoid look like this?

I picked this one up on ebay years ago; it was described as a Shadow 1 starter solenoid but I tend to be fairly sceptical of parts from that source.

Perhaps someone can confirm that is correct? This one came from MEV Spares of Ticehurst East Sussex UK.

I suspect that in any case Crewe probably used a fairly generic source for these rather than make their own.

If it'll work in your car you can have it for postage and the price of a few beers.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Grand Master
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 318
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 03 July, 2012 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The other type I've seen advertised is this Lucas one. Lucas P/N 76961

There currently one on ebay USA from Matthew's Parts at the moment for US$62 plus postage.

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Jeff Young
Frequent User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 03 July, 2012 - 06:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew,

While I have the non-connector-block choke solenoid, I'd be willing to bet that the connectors are just to conect the black wires to the white and white/blu wires. (In other words, nothing is connected to the back side of the connector blocks.) So if you pulled out each side, but left the black wire twisted around the white/blu wire (and the other black twisted around the white), then you haven't actually disconnected the solenoid and it still might be the fault.

If, however, you had all 4 wire ends not touching each other and the fuse still blew, then it sounds like it's one of the other components (or the wiring loom somewhere).

Cheers,
Jeff.
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 123
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 04 July, 2012 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is interesting to compare the two photos of the choke solenoid. My photo is from my very early car SRH1405 whereas Matthew's SRH144223 is six years later. The different arrangement is precisely to correct the problem that Bill mentions where constant flexing of the wires entering the solenoid can wear off the plastic insulation and cause a short circuit.
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Matthew Hunt
Experienced User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Wednesday, 04 July, 2012 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Having attempted to post a couple of points using google chrome, i am going to psot a 3rd time in IE...........

I managed to locate the kick down switch, NOT on the bracket near the carb but under the accelerator pedal. The carb section in the manual illustrates it, but then it is also illustrated in the throttle linkage diagram as behind the pedal.

So now I have all of the items identified, I can concentrate on each one in isolation.

I am struggling to understand the wiring to the choke solenoid.

Looking at my pic I have a wht/blu to the left terminal, and a wht to the right, Both are coupled with blacks that in turn go to the solenoid plate itself.

Then I have the two browns.

I am confused.

I thought that black meant EARTH, yet the wht/blu and wht are connected to them under the terminal blocks, so to my mind the power is going straight from the wht's to earth.

Am I just being totally dumb?

Then, on the wiring diagram, there are no browns mentioned on the solenoid (as far as I can see being a novice)

At this point in time I really wish that I had taken mechanics and automotive instead of IT when I had my options in 1982.............

Regards everyone

Matthew

PS This is a great learning experience for me, frustrating but worthwhile
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Jeff Young
Frequent User
Username: jeyjey

Post Number: 84
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Wednesday, 04 July, 2012 - 06:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The wire colour-coding isn't uniformly followed, so don't assume black is always ground.

The brown is just a jumper between two solder points on the solenoid, isn't it? (It's probably just connecting two coils together inside the unit or something. In which case I think you can ignore it.)

The important point is that the white and white/blue don't touch anything (including the black wires or each other) for your test.

(Note that the fuse in question also powers the anti-run-on solenoid and the weakener solenoid, so they'll need checking next if it proves not to be the choke solenoid.)

Cheers,
Jeff.
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 124
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 04 July, 2012 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew,
The two browns you mention look to me like the cover holding clip.
Also the kick down micro switch is in fact near the carburetor, the button under the accelerator pedal is for feel only.
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Matthew Hunt
Experienced User
Username: acebass

Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Thursday, 05 July, 2012 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oh John, dont say that - I thought I was doing so well.

In that case the kick down switch is definitely not where it should be. It's not on the bracket under the carb.

Back to square numero uno
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John Kilkenny
Prolific User
Username: john_kilkenny

Post Number: 126
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 July, 2012 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Matthew,
Here is a schematic of the connections to the Fuse 12 circuit.
The components that could cause a short circuit with the ignition on are the Choke Solenoid, the Ballast Resistor, the Kick Down Switch, the Petrol Pumps or the Steering Column Neutral Switch, plus of course any part of the wiring itself.
If none of the above is the cause the only thing left is the Solenoid Vacuum Valve which was fitted to cars to chassis number 13880 and later. My diagrams do not include it but it should be easy to check.

John


JohnFuse 12 Circuit

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