| Author | Message | ||
     Hubert Kelly New User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2012 |
I have a 1968 RR SS1 with a 4 speed box. I also have a 1970's car for parts it has the GM 4OO box, if I were to change the loom to the steering gear shift etc will the 400 fit the car ie bell housing, mounts etc.(thankfully the 4 speed box works fine right now) Thanks in advance HK, | ||
| Bradley van Ree New User Username: bradbase Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2012 |
Hubert, I'm not certain as my experience is essentially non-existant. I recall reading in the book identified below that in the Shadow series the 4 speed hydromatic is not a compatible interchange with the GM400. My understanding is that 1968 is the key year for the changeover of the transmissions among other things. Strangely the name change from Silver Shadow to Silver Shadow II didn't occur on this event but the name was left until 1977. The book is great. It tells you what is and isn't in terms of standards, quality and specs. There are others in the series for buying RR cars between 1945 to 1965 and 1990 to 1998. Provided the others are like the 1965 to 1985 edition I would suggest reading the appropriate book. It will provide a great understanding of your car. Rolls-Royce & Bentley Collector's Guide: Volume 3 Shadow, Corniche & Camargue 1965-1985 by Graham Robson ISBN: 0900549998 An image of its cover can be found on this website; http://www.motorera.com/books/rolls/ROLLS.htm Brad | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 2560 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hubert, it is of course possible if you have enough bits from the later car including the late bellhousing adaptor plate, flywheel, starter motor and the rest. Mind you, the 4-speed cars are somewhat collectable. As an old vehicle nowadays, the wonderful, expensive, hand-built Hydramatic is arguable far more desirable than the superior but mass-produced and cheap TH400/3L80 of the LHD and later RHD cars. Of course, all left hand drive Silver Shadow and Bentley T-Series cars have the TH400 from the start. It was only for a couple of years that the 4-speeders were built and only on right-hand-drive cars up to Chassis 4482. That makes them rare enough to preserve. RT. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 1402 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is also the often overlooked need to change the crankshaft since the Hydramatic has a large bore to accommodate the fluid flywheel much larger than the bore needed to handle the torque converter. You also have to change the selector gear and the steering column and the wiring. Best stick to the Hydramtic methinks! | ||
| John Kilkenny Prolific User Username: john_kilkenny Post Number: 125 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hubert, The four speed box is a very reliable device and if looked after will likely outlive both you and the car. John (owner for 29 years of 1966 Silver Shadow SRH1405) | ||
| Hubert Kelly Experienced User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi everybody, a big thanks to all who contributed. Ill stick with the 4 speed I reckon. Thanks again HK | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 140 Registered: 3-2012 |
Hi all, an opportunity to purchase a 4 speed box fro my 1968 Shadow costing 600 stg.has come to pass..,obviously no guarantee it will work etc.. Question,.. is it worth it for parts?. Do you think if I ever need to strip the gearbox I might be able to fix same.. ie.following manual..., or is reconditioning a gearbox beyond a non trained person? Many thanks Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.84 |
The 4 speed unit is once set up as tough as old boots plus a bit. The 3 speed is merely just as tough as old boots. The only difference in driving is the torque converter gives better off the line acceleration. The 4 speed once moving and in 2 is about the same and most drivers will not notice because it's an old car that is driven with mechanical sympathy. Prop shaft! IMO it's best to leave as original. The bad bit is that to properly overhaul this box lots of shims are required. Which puts the price up. However often when correctly set up, the box proves to be correct. Pay particular attention to the throttle linkage because a lot of these boxes are misdiagnosed as faulty when it's the linkage. This gearbox was made by RR and sold to other makers such as Daimler. I have seen throttle linkages with bushes so badly worn that the gearbox feels as its about to snap in half due to such a rough shift. Also on other cars bad engine mounts and bad design pull the linkage out of adjustment. Daimler made ambulances with this gearbox and the engine used to move over to one side and pull the linkage which made the throttle on the carb move as well. I drove one where if one lifted off just as the box was about to change then the change used to bang in and the engine would jump and pull the link and the box would change back. The ambulance would bunny hop in fits and starts, what a heap. The 3 speed designed this problem out. However because the shadow has a well designed version of the linkage once set it stays set. 4 speed is right hand drive only. So making them shadow 2 when they went 6750 and 3 speed would have confused the market. The cars looked the same. I would have dropped the silver bit and use just shadow. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| gordon le feuvre Frequent User Username: triumph Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2012 |
As Richard Treacy says all lhd cars from day one had 3 speed gm400. RHD up to '68 only had 4 speed. The biggest complaint was 2-3 upshift- getting it smooth was problem. The vertical linkage from throttle down to trans running vertically past the distributor had a vernier click adjustment with left and right hand threaded in order to fine adjust gearshift speeds on road to get best setting. This takes time AND patience but it's worth the effort. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 144 Registered: 3-2012 |
Thanks guys, from your reply can I assume you think the 4 speed box for 600 stg is good for parts?. Bob from what you have said , is it correct to assume if the gearbox is treated correctly I won't need a spare box for future parts?. Many thanks Hk | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3134 Registered: 4-2003 |
Snap it up or sell it to me. That is less than a tenth of its value even if it only good for hard parts. A master rebuild kit alone costs far more than that (clutches, seals and gaskets but no bands included). RT. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 147 Registered: 3-2012 |
Thanks for that Richard, I just needed someone to confirm it was worth every euro\ pound.. Many thanks. Hubert Kelly. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.83 |
I don't know what stg is so I cannot comment on price. In the old car game any bits that turn up cheap I grab. Because I can sell on if needed. A gearbox is easy to store. Really heavy. As good as these boxes are there is a limit. If a gearbox drives nice and has clean oil then it will last years. This box is known to be robust. So if the car drives right don't worry the box is unlightly to just break. Keep the linkage clean and oiled. If you really fancy a converter 3 speed then buy one. At the moment early carb spirits are bargain basement. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 571 Registered: 5-2012 |
stg = stirling - the uk currency. Also sometimes denoted by ukp and known in the forex world as GBP. | ||
| Brian Vogel Grand Master Username: guyslp Post Number: 1142 Registered: 6-2009 |
Geoff, Thanks for that. I'm aware of the phrasing "pounds sterling" but have seen the GBP (which I presume means "Great Britain Pounds") in use for so long that "stg" meant nothing to me other than it was a currency reference of some sort. I expect when participating in online forums that virtually any currency will eventually be used when talking about pricing based upon the home country of the poster. I don't expect people who deal in GBP, or Euros, or whatever to do currency conversion to USD for me nor do I do the converse of that when posting a price in USD. Brian | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 572 Registered: 5-2012 |
All the more interesting as Hubert lives in the Republic of Ireland and did not quote the price in his currency, the Euro. I guess the seller of the gearbox must be in Northern Ireland. Geoff | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 150 Registered: 3-2012 |
Geoff your exactly right, the gearbox is for sale on the mainland U.k. England I believe. The price quoted to me was in stirling.We here in the Republic of Ireland are quite familiar with the euro\stg signs particularly close to the Northern Irish border. In fact each country of the UK have there own currency, Scottish, English etc all called stirlng but a Northern Irish stg may not be accepted in other parts of the UK etc etc Hk | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Experienced User Username: soviet Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2013 |
Hubert I would keep the spare gearbox and I would not consider replacing the 4 speed with the 3 speed although I have heard that to overhaul the 4 speed is expensive. Perhaps the chaps at Flying Spares would know for sure but I doubt anything Bill has to say would be incorrect. That said given the fact that a lot of old Shadows get broken these days because of a lack of appreciation I did have a demented thought about converting one to a T56 Magnum 6 speed manual. Yes they will take 700 ft/lbs of torque. Blasphemy I know and a hell of a conversion but RR used to make manual cars in the golden years before my time. But really I think it only right to keep the original transmission. That said, if you have also a Jaguar habit as I do, then I should tell you about the XJS V12 caper. I had one. It had a turbo 400 gearbox in it. I could never get the tires to squeal round any corner when I lived in Sydney. In fact comparing its handling to the 7 Series BMW I had, Britain had really thrashed Germany without mercy. However, its acceration was like a wet dead sheep. Now if you get any XJS HE or not and drop a 5 speed manual into it then you have a real weapon on your hands. I'm talking scalded cat territory. That is one car that should never have been an automatic except on special order for one legged church attending grannies. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3135 Registered: 4-2003 |
Not only later XJ12 and XJS V12 cars have the TH400 (it replaced the loathsome and quite- unsuited Borg-Warner 12 in 1979). Apart from the Americal hoards, other cars such as Holdens (small 5-litre V8) a few Ferraris, Mston Martins are among the many which have the TH400 although the bellhousings are mostly Chevrolet whilst R-R usees the 1964 Cadillac pattern (same as 1964-1966 400cid+ Buicks). Although the supply of casings is short these days, there is no shortage of hard parts fpr the TH400 costing next to nothing in Australia. Hydramatics are a diggerent story altogether and spares can cost the earth ( can guess that a new planetary gear and drum unit would cost you $5,000 if you could find one). Pricing here for a drive in-drive-out overhauls including torque converter where applicable are roughly: TH400 (3L80) $1,400-$3,500 4L80E (ie 4-speed Crewe cars from, 1992) $3,000-$5,000 Hydramatic (R-Type through S3) $9,000-$16,000 (more if there are broken parts or worn bands) Hydramatic (4-speed Shadow/T) same as R-S1 but add $1000, even more if the sprags are shot. Divide the numbers above by two and call them £ if you wish. So, a TH400 is as cheap as chips to overhaul whilst the Hydramatics can be expensive if neglected. An exchange transmission is to be avoided if at all possible for obvious reasons – incremental changes to transmission components during the decades of production and inheriting someone else’s patched-up problem.. As Vladmir implies, the TH400 is not ideal with low-torque motors like a Jaguar or Ferrari one. It was a compromise to get out of jail at the time for several manufacturers as the TH400 is a truck transmission suited to low-revving high-torque motors of at least 6 ½ litres (around 400cid). Lovely as it is, the little 5.3 Litre Jaguar motor was never suited to the TH400 although many have been vastly improved with high-stall converters from B&M and the like. Likewise, I can imagine that a Silver Shadow would be a real dog with a manual transmission or a five-speed automatic. The 4L80E is only alright in 1992+ cars as fourth is geared faitly much as an overdrive (it is indeed a TH400/3L80 with an overdrive strapped to its rear). I have driven a couple of late Arnages with the 6-speed ZF 6HP32 transmission and find them shifting just far too often for a largish turbocharged motor after living with the other three transmission series for a long time. RT. | ||
| Chris Miller Grand Master Username: cjm51213 Post Number: 314 Registered: 5-2013 |
Hi Folks, I have a '66 -- SRX1182. The transmission is available. Contact me if you're interested. Chris. | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2012 |
Vladimir,Richard,Chris thank you for your advice. Chris the customs would have a field day on import duty from the U.S. I will update if and when the gearbox arrives. Many thanks Hk | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.80 |
SRX vin number means California spec. Therefore car fitted with 3 speed and convertor. All USA cars were so fitted. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3136 Registered: 4-2003 |
What's more, SRX1182 has a switch-pitch converter. Not many TH400s have that, but to name a few the 1966-1967 Buick Riviera Nailheads have them and some Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs from around 1966 have them too. They were much-loved but not particularly successful. A secondhand casing from a switch-pitch transmission is not much use. RT. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3137 Registered: 4-2003 |
Having noted that the switch-pitch converter was not particularly successful in the larger low-reving torquey V8s thumpers, it may have been a solution for some the deficiencies of the TH400 in the more revvy Jaguars and Ferraris. By allowing a high stall at takeoff those motors would be happier whist still retaining low stall at cruising speeds. The s-p was not very useful at all in a Silver Shadow even in short-stroke 6¼s or in Buicks, and definitely would have been out of place in a stump-wrenching Bentley Turbo. RT. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.83 |
Switch pitch tends to introduce weakness in the converter so the bits are heavier which doesn't help. Modern variable converters still have the same problem. Maybe a shadow might go better with say a 5% increase in stall, but fuel economy and it might not be everybody's cup of tea. I view a 3 speed converter box as 3 variable ratios 6 speed if you like and two reverse. Not that ones drives that fast going backwards. Unless of course it's an Italian market car. There's a video on YouTube showing a converter under load and the case was bending and flexing. One doesn't give converters much thought but they get some stick and last well. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Hubert Kelly Prolific User Username: h_kelly Post Number: 165 Registered: 3-2012 |
I adjusted the TV linkage to the hydramatic 4speed gearbox today. The gear change until now had been rough from 2/3.The adjustment has made a massive difference, its beautiful to hear the smooth change in gears now.I have no doubt I'll need to make tiny adjustments to the linkage, to make it 110 percent if I get ocd re same. |
