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Brian Vogel
New User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 07:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello All,

In recent days I have gone searching in all of my "usual US-source websites" for RR363 and am coming up quite empty. One of them even claims that Castrol is no longer producing RR363 [and, yes, I know this is not true] but it really appears that the supply is getting very tight. http://www.hdrogers.com/rollsroyceshop1.html, one of the more reliable sources here, has been on backorder for a while now.

It's anathema to even ask the question on the RROC-US website, but has anyone been using anything besides RR363? If so, what and for how long?

I am becoming more and more convinced that RR363 is going to become a "thing of the past," and soon. Knowing other options that people have actually tried, and knowing how long they've been using them, is about the only way to have a decent shot at finding a functional replacement.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 08:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, the options have been discussed at length on this forum in the past and a search using "RR363" as the keyword will reveal at least a day's worth of reading.

The consensus seems to be a blend of DOT3 brake fluid and castor oil has promise as a replacement however usual disclaimers apply as this blend has not been discussed for some time.
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Brian Vogel
New User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 10
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 08:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,

Thank you. I am very well aware of those posts and discussions.

What seems to have occurred is that whatever people are actually doing "has gone underground." There are those for whom even speaking about a possible alternative to RR363 will cause them to go into fits of apoplexy. Personally, I think the time for this subject to come under very public discussion, with no shaming of those who have silently been on "the bleeding edge" of using something else.

I have heard several times from very respected sources (one of whom is/was a regular here) that Castrol ensures us that they will not be terminating production. I'm just no longer buying that.

If anyone here reading this has been experimenting with DOT3/Castor mix or has been using straight DOT 4, particularly if you've been doing so for a number of years and miles, please speak out.

As long as RR363 is available those who insist upon having it will continue to get it. What I really worry about is when it simply is not available, and right now it's really close to that situation from all U.S. sources I knew of.

Thank you again for your post.

Brian
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 07:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, I would be VERY wary of using straight DOT3/DOT4 as a replacement for RR363 based on my experience with diesel engine injection pumps which are very similar in construction to the R-R/B hydraulic pumps. The pumps do not have seals and rely on very close fits between the piston and cylinder wall to function - consequently they are very intolerant to any wear especially from lack of lubrication. Straight DOT3/DOT4 fluids are not formulated to provide the level of lubrication required by high pressure hydraulic pumps as the brake master cylinders where they are normally used are low-pressure intermittent use pumps. Conversely, the R-R/B hydraulic pumps are continuous use high pressure pumps.

If you know anyone who is a member of a Citroen Car Club, you may find them a source of useful update information as Citroen owners were very involved in the DOT3/castor oil mix experimentation.

(Message edited by david_gore on 22 July 2011)
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 214
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 08:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Although I don't put high mileages on my Shadow (SRH24518) nevertheless I've used a 90:10 mix of DOT4:castor oil in all the hydraulics for over 2 years. Despite warnings that you shouldn't use the BP (edible) stuff I've yet to see any signs of the two beginning to separate as it's often claimed they must. Don't forget that last Winter was unusually long and cold here in Blighty, with heavy and prolonged snow almost paralysing the transport infrastructure for weeks on end. Of course I mostly used my 4WD Toyota, but still preferred to go out in the Rolls when conditions permitted.
So far the results are that the hydraulics pump up as quickly as they ever did and don't lose this pressure any faster than previously. I haven't kept up with the chat on the Citroen DS sites, but no whispers have come my way that they're no longer using this home formulation.
Obviously I only speak from a strictly personal point of view and that the usual caveats apply.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
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Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 262
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As a slight aside to this discussion: is there a use-by-date for sealed unopened bottles of RR363? I've had several bottles lying around for over 3 years which I inherited with the car and consequently don't know there actual age.
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 11
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In 2009 when I was replacing almost all of my hydraulic hoses (will do the high pressure ones along with the accumulator & accumulator control valve rebuild) my car was in desperate need of a hydraulic system flush and refill. There was no way I was using RR363 for the "flush" portion of that program since it was all going to be pumped out of the bleed screws anyway. For that I did mix up 10% castor oil and 90% DOT3 but did my final system fill with RR363.

In the two years since then I've had a couple of fluid ounces of "the mixture" sitting outside in my un-climate-controlled garage next to the car. It's now on its second summer after two winters and remains as perfectly mixed as the day I made it.

Now, I realize that this fluid has not been subjected to any of the heat/pressure of running through the hydraulic system. That being said, unless it's a direct effect of being subject to extreme heat or pressure, a 90/10 DOT3/castor mix appears to be mighty darned stable at "room temperature" where the room has varied from a bit below freezing to very hot through many, many cycles now. The castor oil I used was "human consumable" grade obtained from the pharmacy.

Brian, simply reporting my observation with regard to stability of the mix

P.S. to Jeffrey: My understanding is that so long as the bottle remains sealed there is no limit to the storage time on RR363. The big issue is that it's hygroscopic and the bottle/seal effectively prevents this issue from occurring.
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Clifford Donley
Frequent User
Username: flatus

Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Friday, 22 July, 2011 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, why not take a sample of what you have installed and have it analyzed by a lab?

Or if it passes a visual examination and a sniff test in comparison with what you have stored, why even do that?

Cliff
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 215
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Saturday, 23 July, 2011 - 01:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you check the original website there's a write up on the use of this home made fluid. On Page 2 he's even gone to the trouble of having varying concentrations subject to limited testing (viscosity only).
Although the concept of separation or clotting is touched upon, it's his opinion that it's only likely at concentrations of 20% or higher and at air temperatures falling significantly below freezing point for protracted periods. Even then it might be overcome if the car is used regularly during this cold spell as the action of the pumps should serve to break up any small clots that enter them.
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Omar M. Shams
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Username: omar

Post Number: 195
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 23 July, 2011 - 01:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have been using a blend of 85% Dot4 and 15% castor oil in both my Wraith IIs and Silver Shadow for 3 years now. They have been running like a dream. My previous Shadow II ran purely on RR363 and it did not run any better than my home brew blend.

I do not want to make a big issue of using my own blend as I do not want to uopset anyone with strong views on this matter within our small community.

one thing I must declare is that my cars operate in Dubai where we do not get low ambient temperatures.

i am not encouraging anyone to use my blend, all I want to say is that I have used it for 3 years with no preoblems to date.
Thanks
Omar
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 23 July, 2011 - 02:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Cliff,

The problems with analysis are several. I know precisely what I have, and could have viscosity tests done, but as Jan points out that has been done. Also, no one seems to know, definitively, what RR363 is (other than a DOT3 & DOT4 [I think] compliant brake fluid with lubricating additives).

I have read all of the various information that has been mentioned here thoroughly and even had exchanged correspondence with Mark Bardenwerper about all this in 2009.

What I'd like to hear from now is people such as Omar, who have been using various DOT3 or DOT4 fluids as a base mixed with castor or straight DOT4 [which I know a couple of people have done - but hadn't done for long enough to know much about the result].

"The mystery that is RR363" is becoming progressively more irritating to me as it becomes more and more difficult to get and ludicrously expensive when it's available. At $27.50/liter US it's just nuts, and that's if you can find someone who's got it.

I fail to understand why the search for a functional replacement for RR363 is in any way controversial. As I said earlier, as long as Castrol produces it [and distributes it] anyone who really must have it can find it (provided they're willing to go to the effort and expense). But I still don't think that we're going to have RR363 available in the reasonably foreseeable future. Squelching all discussion of experimentation, what seems to be working and, equally important, what doesn't is important. If someone has experienced a catastrophic failure that they reasonably believe is the result of using a homemade mixture of some sort they should be commended if they report that failure, not chastised for experimenting. Even Crewe said that one could use straight DOT3 in a pinch and for very, very short periods of time.

I don't believe that a two-week test is enough and I also believe that a ten-year test is unnecessary. At the age of these cars one can expect the occasional brake pump failure even if the only thing it's ever used is RR363. Data such as that offered by Omar (and I have received similar data points from others) suggests that the pumps can be run without self-destructing on other fluid mixtures for extended periods of time. The more we know about what those mixtures are, what conditions they're being used under, and how long they've been used without any detectable damage the better off we'll all be.

Brian
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Jon Rothwell
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Username: jon_rothwell

Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Saturday, 23 July, 2011 - 08:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Haven't posted here for a while but I'm going to put my 10 cents worth on this debate.
Many years ago I suggested that the magic ingredient in RR363 was castor oil, this was based on my experience with model aircraft engines that use castor oil as a lubricant. The acid test is to burn some 363 on a hot exhaust and see what you can smell (this is what tipped me off). I was met both with extreme derison and encouragement, and lost interest in the idea of further research.
I have no doubt that if castor oil will mix with fuel, and survive in a model aircraft engine spinning at 20,000 rpm and still provide lubrication, then it will be just fine in a RR braking circuit.
To me this debate is really a non event, as it seems that a castor oil and brake fluid mix has been used for decades in other vehicles, the only real debate is ratios and types of brake fluid/castor oil.
And for an end note does anyone know what Castrol stands for? It is my understanding that the Castrol company was a suppler of castor oils for mixed applications including cars and aircraft.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 216
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 24 July, 2011 - 12:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As you say Jon, the name "Castrol" is a corruption of the words castor and oil. Yes, they did originally supply this oil for use in many high performance cars and aircraft of the day. Up to the late 1940's virtually all racing cars and fighter biplanes used castor oil as a lubricant and it was normal for the pilots of these aircraft to suffer the obvious effects of the unwitting ingestion of it due to the poor sealing qualities of many of the seals. Although many may think that these engines were underpowered compared to our 'modern' Rolls Royce engines, nothing could further from the truth. Power outputs of 500bhp weren't unusual and in a fighter aircraft reliability is the difference between returning to base alive or being just another casualty of war!

Like you I'm aware that many of our modern model aircraft engines run on a high concentration of castor oil in the fuel as they're mostly 2-stroke engines (I've got 4 of them), in which lubrication is even more vital due the vastly superior power/weight ratios they exhibit.

Personally I can't see this mix, at the correct %ages, causing excess wear due to the relatively light loadings they're subject to.
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Omar M. Shams
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Username: omar

Post Number: 196
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 24 July, 2011 - 06:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Brian,
I am grateful for your post as I feel that you can see the clear writing on the wall that I have Also Seen for many years.
The motor industry has seen many products discontinued due to low demand and RR363 is no different to everything else that went into obsolescence. If the end day is soon, or a little later than that is immaterial. The day will come when RR363 will no longer be produced – or it will be available to order at even more stupid prices.
Whilst people pay crazy money for RR363, then Castrol will naturally make it. They are not making it because they love us. They are a business and like all businesses they need to turn a profit. They are not a charity.
In preparation for their last day of production, I for one will not sit there and wait to react to a problem after the fact. I am not dependent on Castrol nor have I been for the last 3 years. I use my own blend for my Wraith IIs and Shadow that I lovingly call YAK363, and for my Turbo R and Continental R cars, I use Citroen LHM oil (which costs far less than Castrol labelled LHM oil that is produced from the same blending plant anyway).
I have noticed that of the two sources of Dot 4 brake fluid which I have thus far used to make my YAK363, it is important to stick to the same type of oil and not mix them. I have no basis for this other than I sprang a leak at one height control valve when I switched from one Dot 4 oil to another. The leak may have been ready to occur regardless of oil type, but it is the only observation I have made over the last 3 years of running with YAK363. I have not changed back to the first Dot 4 type oil I had used, and have no intention to. They are all as good or as bad as each other.
The proportion of castor oil will vary based on ambient temperatures. Perhaps we can find the proportion that suits our application best. For Dubai and areas with similar temperature conditions, the mix of 85% Dot 4 and 15% Castor oil works very well.
Thanks
Omar
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Brian Crump
Frequent User
Username: brian_crump

Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Sunday, 24 July, 2011 - 06:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Fo what it is worth, R363 appears to be available direct from Castrol UK at GBP 12.65 per litre. http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014110&contentId=7027410
There is a Classics Price List and Order form on the RHS of the page.
Regards,
Brian
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 218
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 24 July, 2011 - 08:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Data taken from the Roberts Hall website:

Specifications and Manufacturer Approvals

FMVSS 116 DOT 3
SAE J 1703
ISO 4925

Tech Data for Castrol RR363 Brake Fluid for pre 1980 Rolls Royce and Bentley models

Colour Yellow
Density at 20°C, g/cm³ 1.030
Dry Boiling Point, °C 260 min
Viscosity at -40°C, cSt 1290
pH 10.0
Girling Freudenberg Rubber Test, % 9

Although they're only quoting £11.50/litre that's plus VAT @ 20% ...

and they're out of stock!

Other websites are quoting from £20 to £24 per litre.

There's also an old tin can of the stuff on eBay from the USA, but the S&H prices are horrendous and the contents aren't guaranteed to be still useable.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1012
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 24 July, 2011 - 05:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Beware of old stock if buying on Ebay or similar sites - there was a batch of RR363 in the 1990's that caused huge problems with noise due to inadequate lubrication. The noise was christened "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" by a NSW Branch member Eric H**** as this is exactly what it sounded like in his pristine Shadow, This batch was in a distinctive plastic container which is illustrated in one of the RR363 threads on this forum.
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Randy Roberson
Experienced User
Username: wascator

Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 17 August, 2011 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

According to Castrol's Material Safety Data Sheet, RR363 consists of brake fluid and "castor oil, ethoxylated, propoxylated".
This form of castor oil is one of the myriad forms available, as castor oil I learned has lots of industrial uses as well as uses in consumer products. The CAS number for this form of the oil is 72986-44-8.It should be available from industrial chemical suppliers who specialize in this sort of thing; after all, Castrol has to buy it somewhere.
I understand the term "ethoxylated, propoxylated" indicates the oil has been modified to enhance it's miscibility with moisture and prevents it separating out of a mixture, which makes sense. Castor oil also has unique and useful lubricating properties.I am certain after what I read, that it is added to brake fluid to lubricate the pumps, and is treated to keep it all mixed together and prevent it from clotting up, gelling, or otherwise mucking up the works.
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Jeffrey McCarthy
Prolific User
Username: jefmac2003

Post Number: 263
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, 22 August, 2011 - 07:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just an update on RR363 availability from Flying Spares in the UK in their August 2011 newsletter:

http://www.flyingspares.com/uploads/Newsletter/Flying-Spares-News-August-2011.html
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 221
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 22 August, 2011 - 09:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And it's only GBP22.74 per litre - plus postage.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2390
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 22 August, 2011 - 09:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Although RR363 has always been available uninterrupted locally in Australia, in the UK Castrol (BP) is making announcements:


quote:

BP has entered into a new agreement to supply RR363 hydraulic fluid through its Castrol brand to Bentley Motors in the latter part of 2011. Castrol regrets the impression that this product has been difficult to obtain, and trusts that the new franchise arrangement minimises availability difficulties in the future.

The product is marketed by Castrol under the portfolio CASTROL CLASSIC ANCILLARIES

Castrol RR363
A special brake fluid for use in early Rolls Royce and Bentley vehicles, prior to 1980, fitted with a metal reservoir.
Replaces Castrol LHS2 in early Citroen hydraulic systems



Also see:

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014110&contentId=7027410
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2391
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 22 August, 2011 - 09:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan, I need to buy some reserve in Quenbeyan tomorrow. I'll let you know the price for fun.
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 222
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 22 August, 2011 - 09:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I like the bit where they state "Castrol regrets the impression that this product has been difficult to obtain ..."

Impression? When Flying Spares and most of the other spares suppliers haven't had any in stock for yonks? Have I given you the impression that I've just fitted a new exhaust system to The Old Girl or did I state it as a fact?
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Kevin Lagden
Experienced User
Username: kevin

Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 23 August, 2011 - 04:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This from Flying Spares in the UK

RR363 Update

Following the recent worldwide shortage of RR363 hydraulic fluid, we now have a limited amount back in stock. We are reliably informed that Castrol will be supplying a quantity of fluid to Bentley Motors at the end of August, when we hope normal service will be resumed. Please contact us for a stock update
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 23 August, 2011 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Personally, I love all the hedging that's going on by both Castrol and sellers of RR363.

As was pointed out earlier, it was not "the impression" that RR363 was difficult to obtain, it is the current fact that it remains difficult to obtain.

Then let's add the Flying Spares hedge "we hope normal service will be returned." I hope that I may win the lottery and retire tomorrow. Don't let the fact that I don't play the lottery have any effect on your impression about this wish of mine.

Brian
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Billy
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Posted From: 80.6.135.117
Posted on Friday, 26 August, 2011 - 05:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Shadow1 - SRH19580

PLEASE don't bother telling me I'm wrong; I know. But just shove DOT4 (Halfords will do, yes, it really will!) and keep your fingers crossed - mine have been for three years now and I'm suffering from cramp! OK, 85%/15% mix (Omar 23/07/11) might be advisable but this topic is so BORING... zzzzzzzz


(Message approved by david_gore with reservations and my strong disagreement with the comment based on my experience with my own and other RROCA members' Shadows and derivatives. )



(Message edited by david_gore on 26 August 2011)
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Chris Browne
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Username: chrisb

Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Friday, 26 August, 2011 - 06:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi All,
On behalf of all forum contrubutors, I would just like to thank "Billy" for his incisive scientific analysis of the "boring" RR363 issue. Helpful posts such as his are surely what this forum is all about. Clearly all the previous and informed advice from the various gurus on this site has been a complete waste of time so I am heading off to the garage now to drain off my RR363 and fill it with Billy fluid. Must remember the final part of his instructions and keep my fingers crossed for the next three years!

Kind regards,

Chris
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Jan Forrest
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Username: got_one

Post Number: 233
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Friday, 26 August, 2011 - 06:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I really must take exception with what Billy has written!

Halfords?

At those prices?

Money doesn't grow in trees, you know.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 774
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 26 August, 2011 - 09:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

LOL Billy - I won't!


At least Billy has posted his chassis number - there is one for any future potential buyers to to avoid.

Yes they will run on Dot 4 - You can also fill your radiator up with tap water and it will run perfectly well, but long term wear, damage, and noises will be an issue.


Would I prefer a car running on new DoT 4 or R363 that has been in the system for 6+ years? Yes.

But I'd change back to R363 when I can.

Bleed and flush with dot 4. Then drain and fill with RR363 This can save you a hundred pounds immediately - and thousands in the long term.
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Lluís Gimeno-Fabra
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Username: lluís

Post Number: 145
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, 26 August, 2011 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi all,

Since my car does not use RR363 this discussion not really relevant to me but: Castrol has an interesting patent US3623987 on brake and hydraulic fluids. There are older ones, but this one is the most readable. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3623987.html

I see it discloses that castor oil is used to increase the lubricity of brake fluids at high temperatures BUT that castor oil needs further additives to guarantee oxidative stability and viscosity at high temperatures. So I am quite convinced that any commercial glycol based fluid with castor oil has many other additives.

What seems clear is that the lubricant is almost invariably castor oil, with other additives added to increase oxidative stability.

Best regards,

Lluís
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Nigel Johnson
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Username: nigel_johnson

Post Number: 51
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Saturday, 27 August, 2011 - 07:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think Paul is right. For the sake of a couple of hundred quid the job has to be done right. Use RR 363 while you can. Compared to the cost of fuel, its peanuts. Regards, Nigel.
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randy
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Posted From: 146.130.88.132
Posted on Friday, 26 August, 2011 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One's fingers must be continually crossed in this hobby.
Unlearned opinion: as long as there is some residual RR363 in the system to provide pump lubrication, I can't see brake fluid doing damage otherwise. Knowing my Car's system is 40 years old, I expect to have to perform maintenance/repair. I will use RR363 as I can get it. I will try to find some castor oil (ethoxylated, propoxylated)to mix with brake fluid if I have to. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Billy
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Posted From: 80.6.135.117
Posted on Monday, 29 August, 2011 - 08:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Many thanks David for publishing my post; I accept your ‘censure’ absolutely. If I am daft enough to stick my head above the firing-line it is too late to avoid the pot-shots! My only point is this (and of course at my cost!): has anybody actually tried this solution recognising pre-existing wear and tear? p.s… Thanks also to Paul Yorke; Paul, your comments are taken in good faith and I hope we don’t fall out over this!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1024
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 29 August, 2011 - 09:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Billy, the answer is "Yes" based on experience from both R-R/B and Citroen owners. It takes time for the adverse effects to become apparent; creaks, groans and other strange noises from the self-levelling system are usually early indications then inexplicable loss of fluid from the reservoirs due to leakage from the pumps into the engine sump and ultimately inability of the pumps to provide sufficient pressure to extinguish the warning lights.

In fact, the Citroen world-wide fraternity were the first to test the castor oil mixtures as they found DOT3/DOT4 was not suitable some time ago. This discovery was almost certainly the result of the higher mileages travelled by the Citroen owners compared to R-R/B owners as most Citroen owners used their cars as "every day" transport.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 776
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 29 August, 2011 - 06:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I am hating the preview / Post - then post system on this board! lol.

In Short -

Billy I'm usually tongue in cheek with my comments - I'll never be deliberately rude, well first anyway!

"has anybody actually tried this solution recognising pre-existing wear and tear?"

Yes - 35+ years of Repairing Shadows and past shortages plus the early pre-363 days have proven that 363 is important in the long term. Experience on nearly new cars where pre-existing wear was negligible and could therefore be ruled out.
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Randy Roberson
Experienced User
Username: wascator

Post Number: 30
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, 29 August, 2011 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I noticed on my bottle this weekend: my RR363 was "made in USA". I always assumed it was made in the UK.
I am getting ready to bleed my system (actually, "Her" system...) after caliper overhaul. I noticed one of the dust seals on the rear caliper, large piston, had slipped out of place. These were difficult to get in place; I finally superglued one of them to get it to stay long enough to get the retainer ring on it. The dust seals seem to be made to fit into a lip on the caliper which my calipers do not have. If anyone has a fix for this other than Superglue, please advise, as I don't have a lot of confidence the seals will remain in place.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 234
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Monday, 29 August, 2011 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It's been a while since I overhauled the brakes on The Old Girl (SRH24518) so I don't recall if there should be a lip there. However I had no difficulty with the seals staying in place while I reassembled everything prior to putting them back on.

Has the caliper been painted or does it have a good layer of rust on it? Either could have filled in the lip so it's not visible or shallower than it should be. Also you could try holding them in place with a longish plastic cable tie - or 2 if they're too short. When I replaced the boot on the joint at the bottom of the steering shaft I forgot to order new steel wire ties, but a couple of heavy duty plastic cable ties have done the job just as well.
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Randy Roberson
Experienced User
Username: wascator

Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, 29 August, 2011 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

On the rear calipers, the dust seals on the small pistons popped right on, nothing to it. Those on the large pistons gave me fits.
The calipers were bead blasted and painted with caliper paint (silver) prior to assembly. I thought maybe the mold lube on the seals was causing the problem and tried to remove as much of it as I could. Generally the area on the calipers where the seal lip fits is in good condition so I see no problem there. The snap ring which is intended to hold the seals in places seems plenty tight, but this one came off anyway. Hummm... one of those situations where only experience can help, I suppose. Everything I am doing here is my first time.
It seems that my master cylinder is piped to the large, top piston at the rear, based on where I am getting fluid out during the initial bleeding process; is this correct for a 1970 vintage Car, SRH 9391? The factory manual seems to indicate this was changed prior to my Car, so that the master cylinder should be piped to the small, lower piston.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 235
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 30 August, 2011 - 07:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It was only when you started talking about large & small pistons that I recalled that I didn't do the overhaul on the rear calipers myself. I had to farm the work out to a local brake & clutch specialist as both bleed nipples had sheared of and the stubs were so tight that I broke 2 of my 'easy-outs' when I tried to extract them.

As you say: The position of the hydraulic line input changed around that time so the bleeding technique also changes. Exactly when I couldn't say. By the way; have you overhauled everything in the rat trap? For the overall cost it's well worth it. On the same note; it's a good idea to swap out the existing master cylinder and replace it with one destined for a Series 1 Land Rover. They're a lot tougher, give better feel and even have the ability to stop the car if the accumulators run out. They can do this at anything up to 5mph! Golly!!
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Randy Roberson
Experienced User
Username: wascator

Post Number: 32
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 30 August, 2011 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Do you have a part number for that, or any other identifier I might need? That is not a common vehicle here in the US!
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 237
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 31 August, 2011 - 01:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A standard replacement is part number UR13167 and a new set of seals is part number CD4151P). Unfortunately none of the regular suppliers of Rolls parts list the Land Rover one. To source one of those I can only advise you to do a Google (or similar) search for one on American LR websites. Surprisingly there are quite a few as the original Landy has quite a cult following in almost every country on the planet.
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Randy Roberson
Experienced User
Username: wascator

Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 31 August, 2011 - 02:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have noticed a drip from the two control valves in the rat trap; it is more than should be, even though I understand they are supposed to leak a small amount. As you say, it looks like an easy upgrade.
I am opening the bleed screws and letting her sit, while keeping the reservoir levels up. She seems to be pretty-much self-filling the calipers. After a while I will bleed and maybe it will progress OK. I found one fitting I forgot to tighten after it started dripping out my precious RR 363.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1026
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 31 August, 2011 - 08:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Randy, I would monitor the leak for a couple of weeks while you give your car an outing as often and as long as possible to bed down the plungers. I would regard a couple of drops on the garage floor each week as being normal; a puddle is stretching the friendship.

It is not unusual for hydraulic valves of this type to have an occasional dribble if they haven't had regular use. If the dribble remains or increases, you will need to have the valves overhauled by an industrial hydraulics workshop, this is an every day basic repair for them.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2398
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 31 August, 2011 - 05:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan, Randy,

The control valves can hardly leak much as there are no seals and they do not wear. It sounds like the master cylinder is leaking and it may appear to be from the control valves. By the way, the master cylinder is of a very standard 5/8” bore. The internals are the same as on many, many small American and English cars such as the Morris Minor, and on fork lift trucks for a start. Any brake shop should stock the innards. Changing the bore would be a disaster. Not only would it change the braking balance front to rear, but the rear pads would wear into wedges. Best is to have a pitted one resleeved in stainless steel or best in brass, then it will last forever. I strongly recommend against patching in a replacement master cylinder of a different design. Incidentally, when the master cylinder circuit was revised in the 1960s, along with details in the levelling, the callipers were inverted: the master cylinder powers the large calliper cylinders in each type.

Also, do take care with the rat trap. They are incredibly trouble-free and pulling them apart is by far the most common cause of troubles. Once set up by the factory they never need adjusting. I would go so far as to say that, apart from rare master cylinder leaks, the only rat traps I have heard of giving trouble are those which have been taken to bits (for no good reason other than a clean and polish, although some may have corroded through disuse I suppose) and poorly set up afterwards. The master cylinder – seals and all - on our SBH13247 is the original by the way – not bad. I put that down to it being in a cool and relatively constant-temperature environment. I have never touched the rat trap on our car so it still works perfectly... If there is a problem with the master cylinder, I strongly recommend that you remove and repair that only, leaving everything else as it is.

RT.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 781
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, 31 August, 2011 - 06:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

RT - the Land Rover master cylinder is only incrementally larger. Maybe 3/4 against 5/8. Not enough to affect brake balance, but it does make bleeding the master cylinder circuit slightly easier and gives a slightly firmer/higher pedal.

Incidentally the casting is the same for both bore sizes so if having it sleeved, you can go up a size if the people have the piston etc - however, they are a relatively cheap item and I expect it would be more expensive to machine than replace.

Keep your fluid clean/changed and the master cylinder should not corrode.

Seals in the G-valve can cause problems.

As Richard Says - Don't mess with anything else or you are asking for trouble. That goes for the earlier models with Servos.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2399
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 31 August, 2011 - 06:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul,

Agreed that the G-Valve seal becomes tacky and jams.

I would not call an increase of master cylinder bore to 3/4" insignificalt. That is a 20% increase in diameter. It leads to a 44% increase in surface area, hence a 39.6% reduction in braking pressure in the master cylinder circuit. That would cause problems in many ways, even though I do agree that you may safe ten minutes when bleeding.

RT.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 782
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 01 September, 2011 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Richard, I'll leave the maths to you - I can only say that we have been fitting these for 30 years with no problems regarding imbalanced brakes or pads wearing into wedges.

The improvement in pedal feel is the biggest bonus. As you know R-R deleted the master cylinder completely because it was not working properly and they had problems with travel and feel.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2403
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 06:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I just can’t help believing that this is just a wind-up, possibly by Crewe and the Bentley dealers. They are certainly giving the impression that it is a favour by Crewe and that RR363 should be priced at a premium, only available through Crewe. Rubbish. They also tout that the new stuff is made in the USA. True, but so what ? I can’t recall noticing where the last RR363 I bought was made.

I dropped in at the local Castrol shop in Canberra Australia and bought two litres of RR363. The container says MADE IN USA and the price has dropped to $13 for a one litre container plus 10% tax (GST/VAT/TVA/mWSt). That’s no more than regular brake fluid. In fact, the premium DOT4 costs $11 for 500ml here at the discount parts chain Supercheap, so RR363 is a bargain. The cheapest they offer at this discount chain is $7.50 for 500m of their home brand DOT4.

Castrol told me that they have never run out, and that it’s business as usual.

Now, if a backwater like Canberra already stocks the (I assume) new stuff from the USA, surely they do so too throughout the mighty UK and elsewhere??

I can’t be bothered even thinking of making up a dodgy alternative brew while Castrol has clearly committed to RR363 for the foreseeable future and at discount prices. Use RR363 for cleaning, flushing and braking: it's cheaper than DOT4 and as long as we buy it Castrol will sell it.

RT.\ps: given the millions of brands of brake fluid worldwide, RR363 is probably one of the biggest by volume given the monopoly on SY cars. That is probably why it is so keenly priced.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 240
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 07:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

$13/litre? That's shocking. It works out at under £6 and yet we're being forced to pay over £22/litre - around $AU30! I wonder what the Yanks are paying for the stuff considering that it's now made in their back yards.

I've just done a quick check and it's come down in price - at least here

Still not as cheap, but it's getting there.

Another quick check has come up with

this one which is cheaper yet.

I may order a gallon or two and flush the whole system with it at that price

(Message edited by got_one on 02 September 2011)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2404
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 08:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jan, that's right $13 or $14.30 with AUS 10% value added tax (GST). The last you quote is GBP10.7, or around A$16, so you are indeed close even when you add UK VAT to that. What staggered me was that a litre container of RR363 is priced at less than two 1/2 litre containers of the cheapest no-brand DOT4 here. Were it even $20/litre I wouldn't be fussed, but at $13 it's a no-brainer.

RT.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 784
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The RR363 has been made in the US for a while and have had the 'made in USA' on them.

I suspect that RT's one from Canberra is the end of the old stock. It's never a fast mover for most outlets.

On paper it shouldn't be much more expensive than DoT 4.

From what I understand, it's not a production problem, is an approval problem. H & S etc? Perhaps it's a US / European Approval so Aus is not affected.

It was possible to buy it for £10 a litre here from a few suppliers with old stock but that has dried up now.

I know the major after market parts suppliers here have been buying as many as possible down to as few as 6's from motor factors all over the country to try and keep customers supplied.

We're told that it should be widely available again this month. Fingers crossed - We'll see.
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well, let me tell you, if you live anywhere where RR363 is approximately $13/litre you are indeed blessed. The least expensive source (when they had it) that I know of in the USA was H.D. Rogers and they sell it in 4 bottle sets for $110.00. I fully expect that to go up.

If I could buy RR363 for $13/litre (which is $6/liter less than the least expensive I've ever bought in the US) it would be a no-brainer. It would also be a no-brainer if the stuff were available when needed (even if not on the shelf of every local auto parts emporium). At $27.50/litre with very spotty availability [and I still doubt Castrol's long term commitment to producing it] other thoughts must be entertained.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 241
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The trouble as I see it is, with just a few hundred litres per year being retailed, Castrol is in no hurry to produce more; plus it's hardly worthwhile for any other oil company to pay the royalties on its production with Castrol holding all the patents on it. Similarly the returns on designing a substitute would never cover the development costs.

Face it chaps, we're over a barrel with our trousers round our ankles.

In the long term things are a smidgeon rosier though. As the hydraulics of our earlier Shadows become due for a complete overhaul it may become desirable, if not necessary, to replace all the rubber components and convert to LHM Green. As expensive as that may sound, it's little if any more expensive than replacing them with the RR363 compatible parts.

Similarly many have had to pay for the 'upgrade' on the A/C due to the withdrawal of R12a refrigerant and the shortage of places that stock the legal R24a substitute. Conversion to R134a isn't cheap, but a lot of us have had to do it.

(Message edited by got_one on 02 September 2011)
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Friday, 02 September, 2011 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Add to that the fact that there are now seals that are compatible with RR363 and LHM. AFLAS appears to be bi-compatible.

If you have a system where the hoses have been replaced with Teflon core hoses and the various valves, etc., have had AFLAS seals used in rebuilding you're well on your way to being able to convert.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2406
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 03 September, 2011 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP


quote:

replace all the rubber components and convert to LHM Green. As expensive as that may sound, it's little if any more expensive than replacing them with the RR363 compatible parts.




To what end ? The LHM systems are, in my experience, more prone to leaks. What's more, I buy LHM for my Turbo R at around $25 / litre.

RT

ps the RR363 I bought today is new stock mid 2011 according to the labelling.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2408
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 03 September, 2011 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

pps: Leaks and reliability. LHM is passée. That’s one reason why Citroën is moving away from LHM. Our new Citi C5 has brakes running on DOT4 with a 5 year warranty.

Bentley dropped LHM like a stone when they introduced the moderner cars and never looked back.
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Omar M. Shams
Prolific User
Username: omar

Post Number: 199
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Saturday, 03 September, 2011 - 05:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The prices Richard is quoting must only apply in Australia. We all know that the world extends slightly beyond Australia - where the rest of us seem to be paying silly money for RR363.
Why is there a general fear towards using alternative hydraulic fluids? The Engineering Industry has hundreds of hydraulic system fluids all of which are designed to transmit power through pressurising fluids under different circumstances.
DOT 4 has had millions of test hours in-service and has passed simple hydraulic action at lower temepratures and pressures than we use in our cars.
Many clever people have tried additives to DOT 4 that bring it more in-line with RR363 and have seen success in their trials. What is so wrong with that? if we simply followed systems without looking further or seeking alternatives, we would not have developed as a species. We would still be worshiping fire, using clubs, wearing skins etc.
I have run my cars on a blend of DOT 4 and Castor oil for over 3 years now and have not encountered any problems at all. Why should this mix be considered dodgy? Are the clever people in the Citroen Owners club who initiated all this also dodgy by inference?
Opinion is good, but so are measured responses.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 243
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, 04 September, 2011 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In much the same vein, my electric carpet shampooer carries dire warnings about the use of none approved detergents. The warranty is only honoured if you always use their own shampoo. I've used it. It's gnat's pi$$! One bottle may just be enough for a single carpet. I use 'Stardrops' or '1001'. At £1 per bottle it's a fraction of the price of their own cleaning agent, but will do the whole house over 2 times! The carpets come up cleaner as well.

I know there are documented caveats about the use of a 90:10 mix of DOT fluid to castor oil, but as long as it works ...

If - and I do mean 'if' - the price of RR363 could come down to that of (or even a little more than) the price of ordinary brake fluid then all the argy bargy is just hot air. However as long as the price is seen as excessive and/or supplies are difficult to obtain then there will always be experiments made to source or make a viable alternative.
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Laurie Fox
Frequent User
Username: laurie_fox

Post Number: 90
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, 04 September, 2011 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I see that Richard's new C5 uses DOT4. How do the pumps differ from the Crewe ones so that they don't need the Castor Oil?

Laurie
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Sunday, 04 September, 2011 - 01:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Laurie,

Well, they differ radically as a few minutes of internet research will show you. The pumps on SY series Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars are driven by the engine, are engineered to almost unbelievably close tolerances, even by today's standards, and use no seals around the pump plunger in the the pump body. All lubrication for the pumps is the result of the fluid that circulates within them and the minute amount that can cling to the plunger. At the same time that fluid cannot be allowed to escape around the pump plunger to any significant extent. This is no small trick. I have heard from people who have disassembled and reassembled these things that holding the pump housing in your hand and having it warm up can often make it impossible to refit the plunger again until it is allowed to come back to ambient temperature. The workshop manual also explicitly states, "The barrel and plunger are a matched ground component and pieces are not interchangeable with pieces from other assemblies."

Contrast this with the following regarding the pressure generation in the C5: "an electric motor to power the pump housed in the stand-alone pressure generator. Active only when necessary, it operates independently of engine speed at 2,300 rpm."

This is about as radically different a design as you can get, and don't I wish our hydraulic pressure were generated by an electric motor rather than the way it is!

Brian
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2409
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 04 September, 2011 - 02:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian, the C5 has a braking system completely separate from the suspension system. The brakes are conventional for the first time on Citroens in ages. They are standard vacuum-assisted with conventional master cylinders and DOT4 fluid.

Of course, brake fluid in a conventional system needs to be hydroscopic. That’s why silicone DOT5 and LHM are unsuitable. Unless the fluid is hydroscopic, any tiny droplets of water in the system can boil and cause instant brake failure.

RT.
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Omar M. Shams
Prolific User
Username: omar

Post Number: 201
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, 04 September, 2011 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Just a small update:

In Dubai, RR363 can be purchased ONLY at the Bentley dealer . Cost per litre US $48.00

Omar
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Monday, 05 September, 2011 - 04:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard,

You are, of course, correct. I just thought I'd focus on the hydraulic system. The best site for in-depth information on the C5 that is in English that I could find is at Citroënët. It discusses the separation between the braking system and hydraulic suspension.

I've often wondered why both Renault and Peugeot have made an attempt to enter the US market in the past, but never Citroën (that I know of, anyway). Fiat is re-entering the US market with the 500 and starting to do a TV ad campaign. One can only hope that they can overcome their former (and at that time, deserved) reputation for their name being an acronym for "Fix It Again, Tony." The new 500 is a really cute microcar.

Were Citroën ever to bring their Metropolis Concept Car to production I'd love to have one.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2413
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 05 September, 2011 - 01:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

I share your concerns over electric pumps. Having said that, maybe were have been left behind in safety-critical ancillaries ?? So many vehicles nowadays have either full-electric power steering (the MGF was an early starter I recall) or electrically-driven pumps (VW Toureg I believe, where you must remove the manifolds to do anything to the pump). Most manufacturers moved to electric fuel pumps in the 1960s. So, maybe electric pumps are a good thing afterall.

Considering the issues that we have had with mechanical pumps for brakes and suspension, not to mention leaky steering racks, maybe we need to think again. By contrast to SY and SZ cars, the C5 has only ever enjoyed a cursory look at its hydraulics. A friend has an 80,000km C5, and hydraulic issues have always been a remote thought which have never arise.

I had a bit to do with a few Citi DS and CX cars when there were quite new (i.e. just out of warranty and so ready for DIY). The DS has a v-belt driven hydraulic pump (the CX I forget). I am unsure whether a v-belt is safer than an electric motor or snappy SY pump pushrod.

However, we all love our SYs and SZs, so it's all a bit academic.

RT.
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Billy
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 80.6.135.117
Posted on Tuesday, 06 September, 2011 - 01:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Further to my earlier posts, may I (dare I?!) make another point/s? Many have said to use 363 “whilst available”; if (when?!!) not, then what? I accept that I do not enjoy much credibility (with good humour of course!) but a permanent solution to put a permanent end to all these worries. These ‘old girls’ (363 etc) are becoming a bit of a problem after, now, 40+ years and we should face it. (1) Brake system: it is simply not necessary (recognising modern alternatives) to utilise the current system; (HP pumps, lubrication, ‘rat-trap’ blah-blah etc). Assuming intending keeping the car for (relatively) little cost change to (2?) servo assistance; whilst not easy but once done that is it forever. There is plenty of space (boot?) for the units and they are not expensive. Other (e.g ) two ton vehicles are not ending up in the bushes every day. (2) Self-levelling: get rid of it, forget it. Ask yourself, honestly, this question. How often do you really carry more than four people plus a boot-full of luggage to require this wretched contraption? It is a hang-over for his-honourable lady and a couple of servants for a trip around India plus luggage. If that is your bag, fair enough; otherwise, forget it. As for ‘keeping the car original’; who really cares? SY (SS1/2 were mass-produced and not, or ever will be, ‘classics’ as otherwise cherished and cared-for as we might like to believe. Sorry, (and I have spent a life-time caring for mine (20+ years) it is a fact. I risk browning-out-of the brownies (UK-speak!) but I truly have our interests at heart. Thanks to David Gore, Paul Yorke and (Omar Shams 363 etc).

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1027
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 06 September, 2011 - 09:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Billy, the history of Rolls-Royce motor cars is one where eccentric owners have been numerous and, dare I say, tolerated over the years. Pro Hart [a well-known Australian outback painter] and John Lennon gave their cars distinctive paintwork. The Indian maharajahs ordered a plethora of modifications to their cars and so on. After all, the owner does have the final say in what happens with their car both before and after purchase.

I recall a friend of my parents ordering a Silver Cloud in 1963 and requesting it to be fitted with a tow bar so he could tow a caravan around Europe whilst owning it overseas long enough to reduce the import duty when he eventually brought it back to Australia. Rolls-Royce refused so Eric just picked the car up in London, drove it to an installer and had one fitted. I was subsequently surprised to learn many years later that Lord Baden-Powell of Boy Scouts fame had been given a Rolls-Royce and caravan ensemble many years earlier with no problems. Perhaps the objection was due to the fact that Eric was considered to be an untitled colonial up-start who was a self-made success and needed to be put in his place.

You are just conforming to this long-established Rolls-Royce tradition .
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Brian Vogel
Experienced User
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 06 September, 2011 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Although I haven't done either, both of the things proposed by Billy have been done by several people known to me. Blanking off the height control system is a very "poorly kept secret." I tend to agree that this particular feature is so seldom activated that I could certainly survive without it. However, my first foray into hydraulics repair, and, in fact, my first dive into auto mechanics period, was rebuilding the left side height control valve and I did this just to prove to myself that I could.

I know of a member of the US RROC who has replaced the brake systems in RHD and LHD SY series cars with a conventional brake booster system. He uses a 9-inch version in the RHD and a 7-inch version in LHD, both with master cylinders with a 1-1/8 inch bore (which he insists is absolutely essential) along with two 2-lb residual valves. He'd been running both of these cars for years this way the last time we were in touch.

Not that I have any intention of going this route in the short term, I would not hesitate to do these changes if it becomes absolutely impossible to maintain the system as originally designed due to lack of parts. If Bentley every decides to stop producing accumulator diaphragms I know of no other source for these. That being said, I also know of someone who's had his accumulator control valves modified so that contemporary Citroen spheres can be used instead of the original spheres. He says they're less expensive, easier to source, and last longer since they're entirely sealed.

As far as I'm concerned I'd rather see these cars continue to be driven with modifications than to become immobile museum pieces (which, it seems, is how far too many of them have spent a great deal of their lives to begin with).

Brian
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journeymanRR
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 49.196.0.230
Posted on Friday, 06 March, 2015 - 12:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi folks just adding my thruppence to this. I'm a mechanic by trade and have 20 years experience with RR. I too have been exasperated by the 363 issue and its difficulties especially when working abroad. I like many of you have read countless bulletins and been part of many RR club meet arguments about 363 and its composition. I never use anything other than 363 for clients cars for liability reasons but I experimented with my own shadows out of curiosity. I found that on a shadow with mostly original seals and flexible that it leaked horrendously after a few weeks when a normal dot3 10% medicinal castor oil mix was used. On a car where I replaced flexis and all seals and did a full hydraulic service I have been driving five years and 30000 miles without issue on the same mix. I swear the pumps are quieter too. So I know where I stand on it all. At least for my own personal car. I live in a cold climate so kept my mix to 10%castor to avoid clouding and didn't feel an antifungal agent was needed. The only thing is the car lacks its 363 perfume!

(Message approved by david_gore)