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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1165
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 11 September, 2009 - 03:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

A nice car good general condition runs well idles perfectly. Tear around the block, race the engine, slug up hills, it comes back panting and waiting for more! Let's go for a longer drive. Constant speed say 100 kph wonderful!

At about 150 kilometers the engine starts to miss, clearly a plug dropping out shortly after, another, then another, until the engine simply stops. Plugs all oiled up

Compression is good, new valve seals no gas in coolant no loss of coolant no overheating, just oiled up plugs.

Over to you, global oracles!!
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Omar M. Shams
Experienced User
Username: omar

Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Friday, 11 September, 2009 - 04:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,
I have not had experience of this before, but my initial thoughts are that the rocker covers are filling up with oil faster than they can drain back to the sump. I would check the following:
compression when the engine is still hot after fouled plugs have been removed.
lubrication oil pressure regulator. And finally, the breather system.

I am assuming that the only oil level that is dropping in all this is the engine oil level and not any other oil.

Good luck
Omar
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 402
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, 11 September, 2009 - 05:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill definitely oil fouled, could it be too rich?

Choke flap coming off completely etc. Clogged air filter.

What oil is in the engine? (was in the engine?)

Tried it with oil filler cap fixed open?

Has it had too much 'redex' . Or maybe diesel added to the tank by mistake ( a few gallons in a tank lingers for ages unless it's completely emptied.

What does it start like from cold? Any smokes?
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Peter Colwell
Frequent User
Username: peter_colwell

Post Number: 77
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 06:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If it takes 150kms to show up, sadly there is only one reason; worn out oil rings.

I have come across this before, but on an aging BMW motorcycle. Ran perfectly, good compression, no lack of power, but after an hour or so the plugs would become so contaminated that it would miss and then stop. Clean the plugs and it would run like a....Rolls-Royce. For another 100Kms.

The key symptom is the 150Kms it takes to appear. The classic text book definiton of worn oil rings.

Using Iridium plugs (NGK) might be worth a try to postpone the major job.

(Message edited by peter_colwell on 12 September 2009)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 906
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 08:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

I think Peter has the answer however another possibilty would be stale fuel if some time has elapsed since the tank was filled and there has been some evaporation/concentration together with associated breakdown of the aromatic chemicals in the fuel. The breakdown products wiould still be present even if the tank had been filled with fresh fuel before your drive. Imperfect combustion of the breakdown products could create significant carbon residues.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1166
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 01:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello and thanks to yo'all! David, I agree with you - Peter's offering seems the most plausable. The last Cloud 1 I had anything serious to do with was Peter's! The current owner of the current Cloud, a sometimes enquirer to this Forum has had his car to numerous mechanics (professional not amateur old farts - my words)hence I was rather gratified when I was called yesterday for my views!

The info I first listed was the guts of the phone call and he left to find out for me what are the compression pressures when the thing clags up after the long run so Omar and I think alike there. We await the results.

Here my ignorance shows up! Why would the oil rings fail so catastrophically? A certain Phantom VI at a bit over 100K miles has chronic plug sooting apparently due to the ceremonial load but after I have done a few standing quarters in it, it runs like a top. But its compression is not great. Here I believe we have cooked compression rings which have lost their temper. Probably the oil rings are well into the cactus field also but are as yet holding their own since I have driven a very fast 250K up the Hume and when I got home she was smiling and ready for another foot planting!

The Cloud by comparison has good and even compression!

Paul, the choke system has got me thinking but 'they' said it had 'all been checked out'! No stove pipes to break as I recall and no reports of hard starting and it idles perfectly. Perhaps another question to ask.

The dieseling treatment was I believe through the air intake followed I think with a propriety decarboniser. That has been very successful with other cars to which I have given this treatment.

David, I believe the tank has been drained cleaned flushed and new fuel used to no effect.

The iridium plugs have yet to be tried. Are those the ones tipped with the element only found on the North pole on Mars and priced accordingly? What is their advantage - presumably ability to run very very hot.

Omar your upper engine oil draining was interesting. As the rocker housing area is drained far better than the vee eight I doubt this could be a cause and even if the drain holes were plugged and the valves stems immersed in oil I doubt any more oil would get through. I believe new stem seals have been fitted but I now wonder which seals were fitted?

The file is open gentlemen, further evidence will hopefully be forthcoming!

And thanks!
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Stefan Morley
Frequent User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 04:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Find it odd a car would have good; possibly great compression yet the oil rings leaking so badly. Maybe lack of use has gummed them up!

What carbys do those things have. SU's and especially cars with more than one are notoriuosly difficult to get set right. If it where running way too rich.....

Does the gummed up plugs look/feel/taste :-) oily or sooty.

The only other thing I can think of is if work was done and someone left a rag in a hole they shouldnt have filling up the rocker cover. The only other is serious valve guide issues. But that would be apparent in a vacuum test. And very definetly noticeable when the car was first started.

Stefan
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Stefan Morley
Frequent User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 55
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 05:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Maybe this guide. Sure there might be others.

http://roadstarclinic.com/content/view/70/127/

Cheers
Stefan
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 403
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 05:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The iridium plugs have yet to be tried. Are those the ones tipped with the element only found on the North pole on Mars and priced accordingly? What is their advantage - presumably ability to run very very hot.

Bill, Iridium is the new platinum. Same as the Platinum plugs really. They have the small pin sized tip instead of the normal pencil lead sized.

The tip runs very hot so burns off far more of any deposits. I use them or the platinums in cars where they have a history of fouling plugs between annual services. About the same price as the platinums, but 3 or 4 times the price of standard ones. The Phantom VI you mentioned would be improved or cured by them.

So, was the Cloud 1 ok before the diesel was poured into it?

Is the Cloud 1 running hot enough?
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Colin Silver
Frequent User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 82
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 07:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill, shame on you. I asked you a question on the thermostat pully a few weeks ago on my Cloud and you said you were busy reading. My Cloud is more important than your mate's Cloud. I know you're old but so is my Cloud
Joke aside, back to the thread

I'm fascinated with the many possible solutions members have given.

Even more fascinated that a motor runs a charm, then fouls after so many k's.

As we are talking of a standard engine design, the answer should be and instant for an experienced engine nut. But I'm sure the stalling here is to avoid an engine dissemble that could be unnecessary.

Plebs like me solved these problems in a day at Repco or Reg Press Motors.

While a different plug (Iridium) may help the Cloud, it clearly isn't solving the problem long term. But if the engine performs well for so long, you'd have to ask if any more damage is being done?

I yield to the old hands.

Maybe this problem should be taken to other vehicle forums? I'm happy to replicate the question acting as an Holden or Ford owner (suits my breeding).
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Stefan Morley
Frequent User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 58
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 07:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

One other possibility that came to mind and I have no idea if clouds have one. PCV valve. Even cars before emission concerns had a breather for the crankcase. A short drive might not be long enough to cause a serious issue, but longer high speed drives could pressurize the crankcase for longer, less viscouse oil, under pressure being forced into places it isnt supposed to go.

Is it blocked? Just a thought.

Maybe a photo of the offending plugs.

Stefan
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 404
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, 12 September, 2009 - 07:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"I asked you a question on the thermostat pully " . . . .
This is intriguing Colin! Has your car got one?

"But I'm sure the stalling here is to avoid an engine dissemble that could be unnecessary". OR maybe to avoid an engine rebuild and end up with the same problem?

Bill, maybe looking at CO Lambda and HC levels at higher revs might show something?

I'd still like to know what is on the plugs though. Fuel Soot or carbon build up. I think that amount of oil would show blue smoke from the exhaust.

And what plugs are in there?

(Message edited by paul_yorke on 12 September 2009)
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Peter Colwell
Frequent User
Username: peter_colwell

Post Number: 78
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, 13 September, 2009 - 07:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Why would the oil rings fail so catastrophically?

Unfortunately, I have the answer to that, learnt the hard way many years ago. One word. Dust.

Back in my truck driving days, the engine of our truck had a large diameter rubber pipe from the air cleaner to the engine. This weakened and cracked (invisible with the engine stopped). So dust was bucketed in when the engine was under load. Suffice to say that that engine went from using no oil, to using gallons within weeks. Totally destroyed. Strangely enough the compression rings did not fail, at least not enough to be obvious. Perhaps the oil flood to them as the oil rings failed, saved them.

Iridium plugs. Their advantage is not about temperature as much as the reduced voltage they require to fire. That sounds like music to our old cars, and it is. I use them in several vehicles, including my Cloud 1 with great success. Not too expensive considering their almost indefinite life.

The standard air cleaner on the old Clouds is designed only to keep out animals and small children, it has no dust removing properties at all. Any vehicle without a good air cleaner is on a road to nowhere fast. Even clean Australia air is laden with micon sized dust that is a real grinding paste.

(Message edited by peter_colwell on 13 September 2009)
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Colin Silver
Frequent User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 83
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Sunday, 13 September, 2009 - 01:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ah Paul, I could only imagine how funny a contraption like a thermostat pulley would look like.

It was an inside joke to Bill. But I was referring to a pulley that is available for removing Cloud thermostats. Wondered if it would be a waste of money given the thermostats can be difficult to get out.

Bill will find the answer to the Cloud 1's problem, maybe with the help of the ideas in this thread. I'll be storing it in my little head.

But then, I had a noise in an 83 Fairlane and got a Ford trained and very good mechanic to drive and give his opinon. He was certain it was in the torque converter or flywheel area. 5000 klms on (that's me)I found it to be the diff gears breaking off.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 406
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, 13 September, 2009 - 07:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Colin - driving to destruction certainly does narrow down the problem considerably. And you saved money by not having the torque converter out.

Mind you - that may be hard if the engine wont run.

What did you need to know about the thermostat puller?
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 129
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Sunday, 13 September, 2009 - 08:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi guys,

Can you recommend a part number for the iridium plugs? I would assume that the plugs you would specify for a Cloud 1 would suit a Mk 6? Sounds like a worthwhile upgrade to me.

Hi Peter, I have converted my home market MK 6 to run a paper air filter, but have left the oil bath filter on my export spec MK 6. I have never really had much faith in the oil bath, but Richard and others convinced me that it works well for dusty conditions. What are your thoughts?

Cheers

Marty
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Peter Colwell
Frequent User
Username: peter_colwell

Post Number: 79
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 06:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The NGK website has good information on Iridium plugs. www.ngkspark.com.au/

I am using BPR6EIX in my Silver Cloud 1. These match up with the old Champion N5, which is recommended by Rolls-Royce in the original RR handbook that came with the car. Iridium and platinum are very similar, but apparently Iridium lasts much longer. For practical purposes, most vintage cars will never need another set. I am very happy with the result. The main improvement is starting, and idling. Very untempramental.

Air cleaners. English delivered cars came with a coarse gauze filter only, which had zero dust protection. The oil bath cleaners fitted to Australian-delivered cars, and many cars of the time, work quite well. Properly maintained they wll protect the engine quite well. The definitive research on air cleaners is done by Caterpillar, who's machines usually work in dusty environment. According to them, oil bath does not filter out the really small particles, but does an adequate job.

Its a popular misconception that dust damage (destruction) only occurs when you can see it in the air, but even clean air has micron sized dust particles that will cause major problems in a short time.

That's why (good) diesel workshops have isolated environmentally-controlled area for their injection pump service.

Most of what I write is based on long experience with a variety of vehicles. Caterpillar has long been regarded as a match for the Rolls-Royce philosophy and engineering. One of my CAT books opens with this quote; "An anti-friction bearing, - properly lubricated with clean lubricant,- will last INDEFINTIELY." No ifs buts or what ifs.

So consequently when we hear of the collpase of, say, a rear axle, that really means neglect, most likely entry of water which was allowed to stay there, or some other operator error. "Properly lubricated with clean oil......", I have never forgotten reading that about 40 years ago.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 409
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 07:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

IMHO - No other filter will be better than a paper element air filter. You may need to re-jet your carbs , suck it and see though.

The coarse gauze filter should be frequently washed in paraffin and then soaked in oil. A dry one has zero dust protection.

Peter I'm a great believer in plenty of lubrication changes etc. and agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly - but what does "indefinitely" mean :-)
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 410
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 07:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hmmmm The Smoking Cloud 1 hasn't had an air filtration method change has it?

Any pics of the plugs to be seen yet?
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 131
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the NGK number, will order a set.

Cheers

Marty
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Mernon Lollich
Experienced User
Username: mernon_lollich

Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Colin - I suspect that the thermostat pulley is something like the toggle sprocket.

Mernon
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Peter Colwell
Frequent User
Username: peter_colwell

Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 06:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

No other filter will be better than a paper element air filter.

Yes, but in very dusty conditions, some sort of pre-cleaner is necessary to prevent the filter becoming blocked. Donaldson developed the 'cyclopac' for this reason.

Ha, 'indefinitely' is the exact opposite of what happened when English cars were imported in to Australia in the fifties, and deployed in the outback, as many were. Rings quickly wore out, smoking and plug failure followed. But my crash course came as I described, disaster in a matter of weeks when the engine was effectively operated unknowingly sans any air cleaner at all.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 414
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 06:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

True
True & I'll take your word on the 'cyclopac'
True :-(
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Colin Silver
Frequent User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 85
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 07:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul and Mernon - I took my pulley question to the thread I started 9 months ago 'Cloud I Thermostat'
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Colin Silver
Frequent User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 86
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 07:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill must still be under the bonnets of the cloud. Or he is testing us. I've asked a New York grease man of his opinion, but haven't heard back.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1167
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 07:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Colin et al. I have been suffering from an occupational injury involving gravel rash of the rectum if you get my drift! The consensus of the plethora of advice is either cooked oil rings or stuck rings the latter for sitting unused for eons. I will try this morning to contact the current mechanic who has the thing and see if he will accept my advice. I once went down that track and received a response that inter alia said clear off you old amateur and leave it to a professional mechanic. I retired bitter and twisted but then a year or so later he asked one of his minions to contact me to find out information on an historic S3 in the country that he was trying to restore. I told him that while I had exactly the information he needed, given that I was such an old amateur I did not wish to offer what was possibly inaccurate advice. It was my day!
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Colin Silver
Frequent User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 87
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 08:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I can flush the old fella out. Took me 8 minutes.
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 417
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 08:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

LOL Colin . . . but back to the Cloud.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1168
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well I finally managed to talk to Terry the mechanic who was most receptive. The car has been hawked around town with the fouling problem apparently without success.

Now I find that the car runs and starts beautifully, the guide seals having been replaced and now there is no smoke. But within 50-100 miles number 5 plug fouls up. Remove that plug, clean it and put it to another cylinder and it runs perfectly.

The mechanic Terry has a private room booked at the local sanitorium but has asked has anybody tried iridium plugs in these cars and if so what type? I note Peter's recommendation but wonder whether anyone else has tried these plugs. I thought if we can, simply put one in number 5 and see what happens.
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Stefan Morley
Frequent User
Username: myupctoys

Post Number: 74
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Thursday, 17 September, 2009 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bill,

Dont know if it helps but.... If you could use an endoscope, could it be stuck up the oil drain plug and view the cylinder wall. Imagine there would be some tell tale indication on the lower wall of the cylinder if the oil rings where that bad.

Not too many mechanics with endoscopes but the drain plug should be big enough. Have heard of it being done to check cylinder walls through the spark plug hole.

If the alternative is an engine out job........ least this might be convincing proof one way or the other.

Stefan
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 499
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Thursday, 06 August, 2015 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Was there ever a resolution to this issue? I am curious to know. Worn oil rings have my vote, but valve guide seals can be tricky and will result in oil fouling, even new ones that aren't quite right. I recall reading that the Factory had some problems with the V-eight seals early on and experimented to solve the issue.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 381
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 08 August, 2015 - 08:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I too am curious, once we know the outcome it can be applied to other cars doing the same. Also did we diagnose the problem correctly. Long distance diagnosis is very hit and miss.

Often I have suggested what's wrong over the phone. But if I am there sometimes I know whats wrong in 10 secs of hearing the engine run.

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