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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Friday, 12 June, 2009 - 04:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What model number is my Silver Cloud I, 6 cylinder, negative earth, clockwise rotating, automatic advanced, synchronised twin point distributor?

On the McKinnon Industries Delco Remy Distributor description plate I think I can read the model number as 649G - but age has taken its toll on the tag and my 1/2 century eyes.
smart

Could someone have a look at theirs and see if I am correct? The plate size looks like another alpha/numeric could be after the 'G'

I've joined 83 issues of the famous Tee One Topics and in 1165 pages an auto search for "649" isn't found. There are three results for Delco Remy, but two are for alternators.

However, Issue 15 talks of the Cloud Series 1 Delco Remy distributors, but again no model number.

Delco-Remy did make a 649G distributor for 1935 to 1953 6 cylinder Chevrolets - so my eyes could be telling the truth - save for the above mentioned possible other alpha/numeric.

My reason for knowing is so I can fit a Pertronix Ignitor II electronic ignition (shh, don't tell Dad)

The Pertronix Ignitor II I believe I need from their catalogue is 9RR-162

http://www.pertronix.com/catalogs/pdf/ptx/2007/ptx_2007.pdf Page 11

Hilda's Chassis is SWA-152.

I've seen the 123ignition youtube video. It looks smart but Pertronix has sat in my brain.

Any ideas?
Col
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John Budden
Experienced User
Username: johnb

Post Number: 18
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, 12 June, 2009 - 04:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Col
I dont have my cars here but I have a spare distributor which has Model number 7952214.
I have the Delco Parts manuals for the period which gives component codes but not the case.
Please note the distributors are made in UK and I wonder at the interchangeability with US??
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 36
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Friday, 12 June, 2009 - 08:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

John said but I have a spare distributor which has Model number 7952214

I love your replies John, but you have increased my confusion factor x 2.

From my limited knowledge, RR used some GM technololgy after the war. As to the manufacture of those tech specs I don't know. I suspect direct imports - per Bill Coburn's Tee One edition 12

Does your Dizzy # 7952214 say it is a Delco Remy ?

Why would RR put a plate on their Dizzy showing Delco Remy. Eeeks, maybe I am not concours ?

Thanks for input John - always appreciated. I'm hunting the web for that Model number.

Regards
Col

(Message edited by colsilver on 12 June 2009)
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John Budden
Experienced User
Username: johnb

Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, 12 June, 2009 - 08:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Col,
Sorry I have a reputation for being rather oblique.
Yes it is a Delco Remy Made in England.
I have a copy of the Delco Remy Dunstable England Catalogue of the period and will give you the part numbers from that if you wish eg the part number for Points is 7951689 (same as Silver Dawn and Silver Wraith)- note the same 795.....
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 37
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Sunday, 21 June, 2009 - 07:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Fellow Cloud I owners - or anyone with info.

What is the distributor Make and Model in your precious?

I have a Delco Remy 795g made by McKinnon Industries, John Budden has a Delco Remy 7952214 Made in England. You will find the info on a plate at the front of the distributor.

Our distributors appear to be the same - but mine is lacking an oiling pad that wipes the shaft and an oil wick in the center of the shaft which presumably oils the shaft

These distributors are of American design and most likely manufacture. I believe my 649G was a common distributor used by Chrysler and Chevrolet, et all, for 6 cylinder engines from the 30's to 50's and included agricultural engines.

John and I want to define if there was one distributor, regardless of plate or non similar looks, that actually was the same in componenents that mattered - ie: breaker plate, points, rotor cap and other components that made them all the same.

Yes, I am still looking for an electronic ignition solution. I want the U.K. Aldon and U.S. Pertronix (Same brands) product - which fits wholly in the distributor.
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Mernon Lollich
Experienced User
Username: mernon_lollich

Post Number: 30
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Monday, 22 June, 2009 - 01:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Colin -

The distributor in my car (1958 SC, 6 cyl. US spec LHD) is model no. 7962214 H8, Delco-Remy, Made in England. It has the grease cup on the side.

Mernon
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Laurie Fox
Frequent User
Username: laurie_fox

Post Number: 62
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Monday, 22 June, 2009 - 02:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The Delco-Remy distributor on my Mk VI has a grease cup and I have always been in the habit of giving it a slight twist every now and again. It gets refilled as necessary with High Melting Point grease as recommended in the Handbook.

However, the top bearing is inclined to wear a bit after a long mileage. The distributor did 303,000 miles on engine No 1 and before it was transferred engine No 2 the top bearing was sorted out by Adams and Oliver. What they actually did is unknown as the invoice merely refers to the distributor as having been overhauled and the old clutch driven plate was actually reinstalled (which I found out 50,000 miles later) in spite of the invoice saying that a new one had been fitted. There was some talk about the distributor top bearng beng "nipped up".

Anyhow the slight play had gone and everything is still OK 109,000 miles after the transfer to engine No 2 with the grease lubricator still being used as previously.

If there is no grease lubricator what stops the top bearing running dry and what is the top bearing life then like?

Regards

Laurie
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1759
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 22 June, 2009 - 09:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It all begs the question: why on earth switch to a Pertronix or whatever, when a Pertronix struggles to perform properly and has a design life if about a fifth of all the unmodified ones working just fine out there ?

I love the digital ignition on my Turbo R, but would never dream of changing to pointless (pun, no pun) ignition on the T or R-Type.
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 38
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 - 07:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard Treacy says


quote:

It all begs the question: why on earth switch to a Pertronix or whatever, when a Pertronix struggles to perform properly and has a design life if about a fifth of all the unmodified ones working just fine out there ?




Richard, with respect, what sources do you have to say that an electronic replacement like Pertronix ignition replacing the twin points "Struggles to perform properly", or has a fifth design life of a pair of points" ?

I am not a purist. I am a person who has been given a beautiful present, by my father, who spent 2 decades doing the best he could with his precious.

But I don't have the passion I should have as an owner. As time moves on I might get the feeling, but I think not - short of a financial windfall.

Given that, I don't want to be working on this Cloud that was under the first 100 ever made.

My intention is to do the least but best to keep Hilda for any of my descendants - a descendant who can get the drift of concours and keeping the Royce going. That could be in 40 years time, when I might still have the quill pen to alter my will.

With my intermittent parts replacements, I will be keeping the original parts for that member of my family.

If I don't have the passion, it does not mean I don't care for what my father started, and what a descendant might continue.

Hilda is what matters. She can be re-assembled back to original in a flash. She is beautiful, and only 54 years old in 3 months. sniff.
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 39
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 - 07:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Mernon and Laurie.

It seems, only by the part numbers in this thread, that my Delco Remy distributor 649G is in the minor.

Hilda's # is SWA-152 which was not many into the numbers allocated. From what I know, Royce skipped each odd number and # 13, making mine about the 75th or 76th made of the total 2300.

I could be wrong - I am only learning.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1761
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 - 08:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well. Colin,

I was given my R-Type as a birthday present too, for my 21st, after my father had had it for some time. It has the same twin points Delco distributor as yours. Another 300,000 miles later it still has the twin points.

Read some of the Silver Shadow posts to see how long the electronic equivalents last by comparison. The electronic units fail without warning and completely at the worst possible location. Worst case with points is an on-the-spot clean and adjust, although I have never suffered that.

There is always talk of replacement aftermarket units, but never a credible reasion why, although it is certainly the cheap option. Our 1972 T-Series has the later single-points distributor. No problems there in 220.000 miles either.

RT.
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 40
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, 25 June, 2009 - 03:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard, you've solved something I couldn't get my mind around. That being Dad not having a record of replacing the points, or even having a spare pair in his collection of spare parts. He's documented everything.

I spent my first 20 years of driving replacing points due to pitting and wear at least twice a year in a wide variety of cars. From that you'll understand my mind set.

I'm very impressed at the build of these points in the Delco Remy Distributor. Would they be stock DR ones for the dizzy, or points made for Royce?

I'm still going the electronic ignition way. If anything it should give a quicker start up after sitting for 2 weeks. I grind my teeth as I crank the starter motor - not wanting to shorten its life.

I now understand why you stick to points. I'll be keeping mine in the spare parts pack in the boot for that time when the electronics pack up.

Cheers and thanks for the input. "I get it now"
Col
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 350
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 25 June, 2009 - 06:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Colin, I think* Richard means the distributor is the same one, not the points. In any case, they should last much longer than 6 months!

Starting should be good on a Cloud I as long as the rest of the ignition system is working well. Coils can also give poor starting.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1762
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 25 June, 2009 - 08:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Actually, Paul, the points are also the same on a Silver Cloud and an R-Type. 2 x RF5093, 1 x RH8891 and 1 x RH8889.

Burned points: now that takes me back to my Holden which I drove until I was 21. You know, our ancient one-owner 1958 job with its old 2230cc motor replaced (one weekend while I was left alone) by a full-house 3.3L XU1++ triple dual-Weber thing which could only idle at 1,5000rpm and hit the power band at 4,000-7,000. That was mainly to ensure that my parents couldn't drive it so they has to give it to me. My brothers inherited that car to drive to school. Yep, when the condenser was dodgy, the points burned up in no time. I had a Lumenition ignition for a while, but it was no good. Rotten starting and unreliable. Today's Hall-effect jobs are far better of course.

Difficult starting on the R-Type with its points ? Never. I have a few new spare sets of points, but they seem to be serviceable for at least 150,000 miles.

By the way, Crewe used to fit a spare condenser Just-In-Case, but it was deleted around the time the MkVI 4ŻL came along.

RT.
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Friday, 26 June, 2009 - 08:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Richard said:
By the way, Crewe used to fit a spare condenser Just-In-Case, but it was deleted around the time the MkVI 4ŻL came along.

Firstly - apologies for not getting the whole post war engine & model sequence in my head. I'm hoping SWA-152 is before MkVI 4ŻL was use in other Royce/Bentley models. If not - I ask "why have I got two condensers".

On to the story....

Disclaimer: I am not a fairy with cars and can reroute a Coil over Cam (say VN Commodore) to run without the computer. But I am a very delicate fairy when it comes to the old man's car he chucked on me. Doctor prescribes valium for this disorder. Thank you Doctor.

Strange scenario when Dad came over to help me fix an ignition problem - a problem that started in the first car wash I took it through. Turns out the car wash just had to be coincidence - although I had recollections of 1976 spraying the engine of my FC Holden. Symptoms for 2 months has been extreme poor running, definite in ignition in my view - seems that it's running on 4 to 5 cylinders, but never being able to isolate the faulty pots.
- Idle was crap,
- acceleration abysmal,
- cruising OK,
- locking in low gear allowed passing of females and getting that 'nice look'.

Before DaddyO's arrival I had changed to the spare condenser, but there was not a change.

Putting new spark plugs (before Dad coming over) did make a good change in ignition H.P.

I couldn't find Champion plugs, but took Repco's NGK BPR6ES replacement (note the R for resistance).

When Dad was over, he put his replacement rotor, cap and leads on - all non Rolls but pro Holden Red motor.

I had felt around for weeks for weak connections and the like. Dad found a loose connection on the inside of the dizzy, the negative connection from coil to neg side of distributor. eg:-(Outside connection firm, inside not).

Whoa, we're onto something here I thought. Yet ignition wasn't all that much better.

Dad said to go back to the original condenser. We did.

Boom crash opera , not Royce quality, but ignition was to how I would run my worked 190 cubic HR Holden panel van with triple SU's

I intend to (after my occupation's financial year stresses are over, to slowly bring the Royce back to its original equipment. Dad produced some used G.C. Bosch Super W6DC, gapped, and I will put them in.


If all goes well with that, then the electronic ignition goes in - in the hope my bi-weekly motor starts don't wear the starter motor out or flatten the battery.

Sorry for long story - It's my personality. Ban me or have club days in my garage.

(Message edited by colsilver on 26 June 2009)
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1765
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 26 June, 2009 - 09:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Two issues. Originally, your car had Champion RN8 or N5 plugs depending on the compression ratio. The corresponding alternatives were the Lodge CLNP or HLNP respectively. Much has been written about plugs over the decades, but there is only a little in it if the correct grade is used. For all compression ratios, NGK plugs are generally considered to be the best, and either BP6ES or BPR6ES are the best performers. NGK have a wider heat range than do most brands, and seem better in a wide range of short and long drives, speeds and loads. The resistance doesn't matter. The premium NGK equivalents, the very best, are of course BPR6EVX platinum or BPR6EIX iridium (GR6IX in the new naming system), but only if you want to clock up loads of miles.

If the motor doesn't run as smooth as silk, best sort it out before trying peripheral things like electronic ignition. Dammit, it's a Rolls-Royce not a Massey-Ferguson. The motor may not be quite as stark and simple as an old 149/161/179/186/192/202 shoehorned into your FC, but it's not at all complicated. Mostly, it is just extremely well made. Best solve the neglect before chasing improvements. Otherwise, you may find yourself chasing old problems and ones newly created which only compound themselves. A fine machine doesn't wake up one day and shriek for modifications after 52 years. Mind you, unless there is something blatantly defective, you won't tell any difference between an electronic ignition or points except that the electronic varieties are mostly far less tolerant of a low battery.

I'm sure a Rolex fan would admit that inserting a Swatch movement would be an improvement, but show me one converted Rolex.

Oh, quite right: your car will have a spare condenser. The MkVIs have a spare coil.

RT.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1767
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 27 June, 2009 - 02:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

By the way, there is a spark plug cross-reference table (Champion ╗ NGK, Bosch ╗ NGK and Denso ╗ NGK) in the Technical Library:

http://rrtechnical.info/

and go to the Miscellaneous Technical section, part MT13, or go straight to:

http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/sparkplugcr.htm

Note that NGK recommends a hotter plug to replace the RN8 compared to the N8: the BPR5ES replaces the RN8, but NGK quotes the B6ES to replace the N8. This is a reflection of the excellent wide-temperature performance of the NGK plugs. For oil burners, ie the cars built before 1984 (SZ Chassis 6750 and all earlier R-R/B cars) not yet uprated with the modern replacement valve stem seals, it is always worthwhile to use a plug one grade hotter: BP5ES, BPR5ES, BPR5EVX and so on for the 6-cylinder cars, or a heat rating of 4 on all the V8s (see the Crewe service bulletin. Crewe recommends BPR4EVX, now superseded by BPR4EIX or GR4IX). The slightly hotter rating and protruding electrode of a BPxxxx or Gxxxx both help keep the plugs clean in a sooty engine and do only good for a sound motor too. Note: the NGK projected electrode is far shorter than the Champion equivalents N12Y or RN11Y. That is to calm any fears about protruding electrodes burning pistons, hardly a concern on a Crewe car anyhow. Over the years, Crewe has been recommending plugs one grade hotter for all our cars.

To decode the numbers, see the same Miscellaneous Technical section, part MT12, or go to:

http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/ngksparkplugs.pdf

RT.
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 42
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Sunday, 28 June, 2009 - 05:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Wow, excellent advice there Richard - and appreciated.

I agree that things aren't all that complicated. It has normal mechanics but very well made. My fear is damaging something or scratching a guard.

I'm a sloppy mechanic too and am well known for having spare nuts and bolts left over after working on anything.

Anyway, off to the tech library. I had forgotten it was there.

Thanks again.
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Colin Silver
Prolific User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 133
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Sunday, 06 November, 2011 - 05:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

2 and half years on I have established the 7952214 is the correct Delco Remy model number. I've no idea how a 649G plate was on my dizzy as they quite different. A 649G won't fit. (I bought 3 from the U.S.)

A kind man, nameless, supplied me with a 7952214 which I had reconditioned.

Had it fitted a few weeks ago with the Pertronix electronic ignition (sorry Richard)

For the first time in 25 years, the car starts first pop and has lost it's intermittent misfire.

Happy man.

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