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Mernon Lollich
Experienced User
Username: mernon_lollich

Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Monday, 08 December, 2008 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I've also posted this question on the RROC/US forum: 1958 Silver Cloud (six); when I switch on the ignition, the fuel pumps make the usual burbling sound, then (I think one) continues to click nonstop long after the carbs should be full. Car starts and runs perfectly, so don't know if the clicking continues with the engine running (incidentally, the loudest sound one can hear in my car is NOT the clock). Any suggestions/explanations appreciated.

Mernon
LSJF72 ("Emma", who will be fifty on Christmas eve)
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Paul Yorke
Prolific User
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 251
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, 08 December, 2008 - 07:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Mernon,

First check that the carbs are not flooding rr you have a fuel leak. Any sign of fuel dripping under the car? The faster the clicking the more fuel is being pumped / lost.

If the fuel filter or pump is blocked then the fuel pump will be pulling a vacuum so will not be able to fill completely and quickly enough. (very bad for the pumps)

If there is an air leak before the pumps it will be sucking air and keep pumping.

If the pump inlet valve is not seating fuel pressure can leak back to the tank.

(Empty fuel tank, make sure the gauge isn't stuck and it's empty. Not for you Mernon, because you've said it already runs and drives fine))

Other than that the pumps may be starting to fail.:-(

(incidentally, the loudest sound one can hear in my car is NOT the clock) Any Suggestions/explanations appreciated.
Ummmmm get a louder clock?? LOL :-)

Hope this helps, Paul.
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Colin Silver
New User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Monday, 08 December, 2008 - 08:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mernon, I've recently inherited a '55 Cloud. The benefacor is still with us and kicking (my father).

I'm a newbie at my beautiful car and spent 18 years ignoring the mechanical blurb often pointed my way.

Dad is asleep at present and I will be away from a PC until the end of the week.

If this problem hasn't been resolved by then, I will get Dad's opinion on the matter. He would still have the Roller except that he got the wallies at rolling it's wheels and Mum hated being in it.

But as for the mechanical upkeep on the Roller, he was at it nearly every day. He loves tinkering.

One question, and I know the sound, does it keep going while you are driving?

Catch you at week's end
Colin
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Mernon Lollich
Experienced User
Username: mernon_lollich

Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 09 December, 2008 - 02:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul & Colin -

Thanks for your replies. This morning I found a 1-1/2 inch puddle of petrol on the floor under the pump, so will check that out first. As I said, the car runs beautifully, but I can't hear the clicking on the road or at idle. There have been several responses on the other forums (fora?) as well, so I now have quite a list to check out! Wonderful people in these clubs.

Colin - Good fortune has smiled on you! I didn't get my first RR ('79 SWII) until I was 62! The Cloud was a 74th birthday present to myself a few years ago.

Mernon
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 1528
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 09 December, 2008 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Copy of post from the US site:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hello there Mernon,

Having seen your posts, it must be noted that the simpler the question, the more imaginative and irrelevant answers you will always receive.

Anyhow, here's my bit.

At first I thought that one diaphragm may be out of adjustment. . That, or faulty contact points (if fitted) would be a definite cause of continued clicking.

That is perhaps more critical with the original mechanically-triggered electric contact points and less so with an electronically-equipped twin-bodied SU pump. Mr Burlen's electronic pumps are a nice upgrade in general, but with all things electronic, they work 100% for ages then die completely without warning and leave you stranded. The same can be said about electronic ignition conversions. All nice stuff those electronic changes, but you may just find yourself relying on insurances to get you home. That's a small consolation: just ask all those angry travellers forced to sleep on the floor at Bangkok Airport all last week. Besides, we donít own these cars to be thoroughly modern under a skin of beauty.

Back to the issue.

I doubt that you have a sticky or faulty valve in the pump body, otherwise the car would barely drive. Iíll put a bet on one diaphragm simply needing adjusting and its points, if fitted, cleaning up. In either case, best is to place the pump on the bench to dismantle it to find out.

Being a regular service activity, it could be assumed that the fuel pumps were adjusted not too long ago. However, that my not be the case.

When you reported a fuel leak, presumably in the area of the pump, I thought that there may just be a split in the pump diaphragm. Fuel may then leak from the air vent in the top of a pump body cover.

Now that the leak has gone, perhaps the diaphragm is OK.

If you are stuck for parts nearby, try a classic-ish Jag specialist. The Jag diaphragm rod may or may not be too short, but then you may always screw on an entire Jag pump actuator body assembly straight to the R-R valve body either permanently or temporarily, short rod and all. The screw sizes and fitting patterns are identical. A Jag joint gave me half a dozen secondhand Jag pumps from 1981 XJ6s for a few bucks once. The V12s even use a twin-bodied pump almost if not identical to an R-R one, dual flange valve body and all.

As noted, a pump adjustment is a regular maintenance task, and is all too often disregarded by many Postwar car owners for all carburettor cars. These blokes leave well alone, then complain about English electrics once the poor neglected pump starts to misbehave.

Off Topic Gripe: An electronically-actuated pump, like an electronic ignition conversion, is for sure an option, but in my opinion is no permanent emancipation from proper maintenance. Given my own background in advanced electronic design, perhaps I should embrace electronic conversions, but I regard them often as a downgrade akin to scrapping an antique watch movement and fitting a Swatch one. Anyone can buy a new BMW from the showroom with all the latest electronic tricks. Very few can own a Crewe masterpiece in beautiful working condition, mechanically-triggered fuel pump points, ignition points and all.

RT.
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Colin Silver
New User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, 25 December, 2008 - 02:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This could be off topic, but given this is a recent thread, is about fuel pumping and Cloud I, I thought I would ask here.

Do I have to drain the fuel tank to clean the rear fuel filter?

The Cloud I manual mentions nothing of this, but he who knows (old man ) says I need to. I think he is confused with the fuel pumps, where in the Workshop manual it reads:


" Fuel Pump - to remove and fit
Disconnect the battery leads.
Remove the cover from the reaf filter; this will
prevent loss of fuel by siphoning, as the level of the fuel in the tank is above the pump.
"

So,
1/ do I have to drain the tank?

2/ What is best physical position to be in to get to the filter ? I can only just see it with a cursory look lying underneath the car.

Appreciate any advice.

(Message edited by colsilver on 25 December 2008)
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1054
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 25 December, 2008 - 03:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Well Colin on this day the anniversary of the birth of our Lord I can think of nothing more appropriate than discussing post55 cars' primary fuel filters, so having disposed of a lovely plate of fresh lobster washed down with a very cold Veuvre Cliquot and now waiting until the digestive process recovers itself I saw your msg and thought 'why not'. As my old granny used to say, "the better the day the beter the deed".

If you pull your boot carpet out, right at the back on the right hand side you will find a round black painted metal plate which you can remove. Peering down the hole you will see the top of the filter in question. I believe it was the designers' belief that it was through this aperture that you should clean the assembly. If you happen to be a practicing dentist of perhaps a gynaecologist and preferably have the stature of a stunted dwarf this should be a cinch.

Alternatively you loosen the nipple around the fuel pipe where it screws into the front of the fuel tank. This will break the 'vacuum' and prevent siphoning. Next simply undo the in and out pipes on the filter and the two bolts that screw it to the chassis. The filter is not a cartidge type but consists of a few mesh filters which can all be parted and cleaned. The top is sealed with a 'rubber gasket which I have never seen deteriorate. It is important that this seal is intact otherwise the pump will suck air on which the car will not run!

Seeing that you are obviously a handy little spanner, take the pumps off, take the filters out there and give tham a good clean. Take off the end caps and if you find sets of toggling points toss the whole lot away and get yourself an SU electronis pump! Lastly if you haven't already done so unscrew the union on the carburetters and pull the little thimble filters out and clean them!

Must get back to the main repast before I lose any more weight! Happy Christmas etc to all of you.

BBC
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Colin Silver
Experienced User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, 25 December, 2008 - 05:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Bill. I happen to be free to do anything today (no religion), so guessed sussing out my early inheritance Cloud I was the closest to a faith as I could get.

I've one question. Following your instructions, when I "loosen the nipple around the fuel pipe" and "break the 'vaccuum' " - am I then petrol leak free to do all the other cleaning processes you mention?

Enjoy the celebration of your faith. And enjoy your food & drink.
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Bill Coburn
Moderator
Username: bill_coburn

Post Number: 1056
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 25 December, 2008 - 06:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Placing my glass of '88 Henschke down to type this and noting your avoidance of 'faith related' pursuits, I apologise for not making the nipple bit clearer. At the risk of patronising you a siphon consists for practical illustration, of a 'U' shaped tube full of say water. While the tube is full, one end is placed in a vessel of water and the other end is lowered so that the outer end is lower than the one under the water. The weight of the extra bit of water on the latter side is enough to draw water when the ends are released from the immersed end. So as long as the relationship remains the same between the two ends the siphon will continue to suck water out of the vessel. There are four ways to stop a siphon, clamp the tube anywhere, lift the immersed end out of the water, raise the other end above the intake end or let air into the siphon. It is the latter you will be doing. Where the nipple screws into the tank there is a pipe inside that curves around and extends all the way to the bottom where there is a coarse filter to catch frogs, screwdrivers and discarded band aids. This end can actually be seen when you remove the drain plug.

On drain plugs, be very cautious in these old cars as they can be sufficiently corroded (read stuck) to the threaded insert to actually drag the thread out of the tank. It is for this reason that I empty tanks when it has to be done by disconnecting the inlet to the fuel pump which is much lower than the inlet in the fuel tank and let it siphon out into a suitable container taking every precaution against fire!

Siphons are quite comon in our cars one being in the hydraulics. If you open a bleed nipple at one of the wheels you will empty your reservoir in hours without any pedal pumping! If you have to disconnect an hydraulic line, clamp it to avoid the siphon effect.

So the short answer to your question is 'Yes'.
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StevenBrown
Frequent User
Username: stevenbrown

Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, 19 March, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Wow old topic. My new work has an Australian on our board of directors. So asked him first, but he does not drive, so did not have an answer. Then I think the originator of this thread lives in Northern California.

Reason I'm looking around here. Found a Bentley SIII and seeing whats involved in keeping these on the road. California--boat in that state most summers. Despite British Columbia and Washington State having ethanol blended fuels like California. Found myself changing fuel filters in a few days running my boat on Lake Shasta, vs maybe twice all summer in my other haunts.

Not sure if other areas besides West Coast North America blend fuel with ethanol--did notice something on the subject in Tee One Topics. If so could be part of fuel problems in older cars fuel systems especially, pumps, filters, and carbs!
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StevenBrown
Frequent User
Username: stevenbrown

Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, 20 March, 2010 - 03:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

My work associate from Australia still has no answer on ethanol blends in use. Most of West Coast North America (Cascadia) has E85 flex fuels and all pumps seem to be E10. I know want and need either a Cloud or SIII. Think like my boat hobby, ethanol is less of a problem if regular use. Like a daily driver that will get a tank of fresh fuel at least every week. Ethanol blends do not store well, 90 day shelf life and they attract moisture. Those that store will have more problems.

Both E85 and widely almost exclusive available in Cascadia E10 will loosen old sludge, varnish and dirt from the inside of the fuel tank, and once these are suspended in the fuel, it will cause clogged fuel lines and fuel filters as well as block carburetor jets or fuel injectors.

More for boats because most boats don't have closed fuel systems, like modern cars. Plus most times my boats fuel pumps are located on the engine instead of in the tank like cars. So its more of a boat problem. But could also be an older before emissions problem in some cars! In hot either by climate or idling conditions, and you use ethanol-blend gasoline it can cause excessive vapors in your fuel line and starve the engine of fuel by vapor locking. The engine can run poorly or stop and will not run until the fuel condenses. As ethanol becomes more popular all over, could see this being a problem with older cars!
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Colin Silver
Prolific User
Username: colsilver

Post Number: 129
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Saturday, 20 March, 2010 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I made the decision to fill with a company branded premium petrol (i.e. Shell Optimax, BP Ultimate et all), from petrol stations with a lot of customers. Lessens my chances of dirty fuel.

And if I haven't used the petrol in a while, some metho goes in the tank.

On the matter of fuel, pumps and starting - I've just found that my Cloud 1 will start as it should if I leave the ignition on for 1 minute before starting. Everything has been overhauled except for the fuel pumps... hmmmmm.

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