| Author | Message | ||
     David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 125 Registered: 2-2009 |
My SCII has suffered from a sticky tappet or two on and off soince i bought the car. I'm thinking about pulling them out and giving them a clean while I'm off at Christmas. Will I need to obtain a new tappet cover gasket and rocker cover gaskets before I embark on this probably long overdue activity or are they salvageable usually? If so, where is the cheapest source of these within AU, and the cheapest source to buy in. I have used Introcar and Flying Spares before, on several occasions as well as others. Suggestions! | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1013 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... I may have mentioned it in an earlier thread about your noise, but if not, before you go the disassembly route, get a few bottles of Jones "Motor Purr". I, as well as other RR/B specialists, have found it to be quite effective in such instances as you seem to be experiencing. . | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 585 Registered: 10-2008 |
David, I used 300cc of ATF in the engine oil to silence the tappets in my tired Mulsanne . It worked, but how advisable this is I would not know ! Mark | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2017 |
If and when you pull tappets and push rods keep them together and note the location in the block ie A1,A2,etc There is surface-to-surface wear from the cam on up. I would note anything that looks out of the ordinary from all the others in the group. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1273 Registered: 2-2013 |
These can be nice and outrageously expensive to replace. If the above suggestions bring no solution, I would first order new rocker cover gaskets then pull them all out keeping everything in an order that makes certain they all go back into their original holes and likewise for the pushrods. Then I would disassemble each one and if they have hard gunk on them immerse in a cleaning solution for a day or two. Check the bottoms of them for wear and pitting. Reassemble. Go to the manual for correct adjustment or use old method of backing them off until they clatter and then tighten them down three quarters of a turn slowly while the engine is running.Be prepared to have oil spurt everywhere necessitating a full engine bay clean afterwards. Use a good mudguard/fender cover that is thick. I bought some nice ones from Snap-On that are total garbage. The use of the wife's favourite thick blanket will suffice until you are caught with it. If you still have noise replace the lot of them. If the bottoms are badly dished its worth inspecting the camshaft lobes for wear. If lobes are badly worn and the case hardening is pitted badly then you will have a delightful time replacing the camshaft. From memory somewhere on the forum there is info on the use of non genuine hydraulic lifters. Search that first. Hopefully, its just one lifter that gummed up from not having the oil changed regularly. I think all oil additives are a version of snake oil salesmanship and that goes for Wynn's, Forte etc but maybe the one Christian recommends works. If you find it works for a year post and let us all know. Good Luck | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 84 Registered: 6-2012 |
Tappet cover gaskets should be replaced in my opinion as they are more difficult to get at but your rocker cover gaskets should be ok. Just a light smear of "Wellseal" on fitting will help. If you do replace the rocker gaskets think about using the neoprene ones as they are much better than cork and do not leak! Not sure what Vlad ment about adjusting the tappets! You must make sure you mark each one to ensure that it is fitted where it came from. When removed you will need to release the oil in each tappet prior to pulling them appart and I do this by using a cocktail stick through the hole in the top to push down gently on the spring. I found that meths is good for cleaning all the parts in each tappet. When cleaned and put back together they should be recharged with clean engine oil prior to fitting. Submerse them in oil and then pump the spring gently with the stick through the top and this will dispell the air and allow oil in. You can lightly clean the bottom face that meets the cam by using some 1200 grit wet and dry laid flat on a sheet of glass or other flat surface. You will be supprised how dirty the inside of your tappets are! Hope all goes well See page E56 of the manual for further help Not sure where is the best place to buy from. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1274 Registered: 2-2013 |
David ignore my yap about adjusting the tappets/valve clearances. RR uses non adjustable valve train. Many cars with hydraulic lifters have adjustment via a nyloc nut. The problem that can occur with non adjustable hydraulic lifter systems is some mechanics put in the old or new lifters which are full of oil and pumped up. That can result in bent pushrods. I have seen it happen many times. The manual talks about paraffin nice never heard of it perhaps its kerosene. So just follow the workshop manual on reassembly. The workshop manual is available in free download and if you really want to get geeky you can try out the RR "leak down " test. Never seen it done in 45 years of spanner swinging! | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 85 Registered: 6-2012 |
Paraffin is used for the leak down test but I would use engine oil to recharge them prior to fitting but defer to those with different experience. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 126 Registered: 2-2009 |
Thank you very much Vladimir, Robert, Mark, and of course Christian. Sage advice I'm sure from all of you. Yes, the previous elderly lady owner relied on a male friend, after her husband passed away, to help her with the maintenance of the car. I have receipts for work that was poorly done or not at all in some cases. I think the male friend was sincere, but he wasn't a car guy or indeed technically inclined. The oil was very thick and sludgy when I got the car, and I've been beating it with fresh filters and fresh oil ever since. A while back I bought, I think it was a Wynns product for noisy lifters. When I finally started the car up a week after putting the new synthetic oil in, to add the Wynns product, (it's supposed to be running as you ad the stuff), it was as quiet as a church mouse. I added it anyway, and it stayed quiet for a while, but eventually started tapping again. I think the detergents and friction modifiers helped a bit, but I'm hoping the wear is minimal. I'll scan a previous engine rebuild invoice from when the car lived stateside, for our collective viewing pleasure. My car has a bit of a chequered history so it's hard to know the true state of the engine now. The car was sold new to a London stockbroker in 1962 (built 1961, but original order cancelled), then owned by various people until owned by a London Restauranteur until 1983, exported to the USA in 1984, and then bought by me and exported to Australia in 2009. It's actually spent more time in the USA than anywhere else. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2009 |
Thanks Trevor, and Vladimir again also. Paraffin is a close relative to Kerosene, but isn't exactly the same. I too will probably use engine oil conservatively, but I will make that call after having a good look and assessing the risk. | ||
| Mark Aldridge Grand Master Username: mark_aldridge Post Number: 586 Registered: 10-2008 |
David I have received much advice anti synthetic oil in classic engines unless the engine has had a complete and total rebuild and is newly run in, and even then the original multigrade ratings should be observed.This appears to be a regularly debated subject, with no finite conclusion. Mark | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1275 Registered: 2-2013 |
David, Trevor has mentioned about recharging the hydraulic lifters with clean engine oil prior to refitting them. To avoid bending the pushrods I do not do recharge the hydraulic lifters before inserting them. I do coat the internals and externals of the hydraulic lifters with oil lightly. After reassembly I disconnect the coil HT lead so the car cannot start and then wind the engine over for 2 minutes maxiumum at a time until I have the oil pressure up. That is to say I let the engine oil pump recharge the hydraulic lifters. I can find nothing in the Workshop Manual at E12 that talks about recharging the lifters prior to refitting them. The method above completely avoids stressing the rocker shaft and bending the pushrods. Perhaps I am overcautious but as I have stated I have seen pushrods bent using other methods. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2009 |
Hi Mark, I too have been bombarded with a ton of anecdotal evidence of the detriments of using synthetic oil. Some of these notions are based on incorrect information, including how much ZDDP is required for flat tappet engines. I no longer debate these issues. The outcome is what it is. I’m not using a synthetic now though because I don’t get the value from the product, with my oil and filter changes be so regular. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 129 Registered: 2-2009 |
Hi Vladimir, I'm with you. Maybe I could consider a partial fill depending upon how full they are when removed. I probably won't though. I'm running a modern geared starter and have a good battery, so I can probably afford to crank the engine to fill the lifters. I actually wanted to do some work on the car today, but the temperature was in the high 30's (felt like 38C). We are having a heat wave, but by mid week we should be back to high 20's, so I will consider doing some work then. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2010 Registered: 9-2004 |
Have you checked oil pressure first, hydraulic tappets are the last to receive oil from the pump. IMO if hydraulic are overhauled or replaced then fit dry apart from the running surfaces. IMO use semi synthetic oil 10-40. If first used then change filter after the first 3000 miles. | ||
| Robert J. Sprauer Frequent User Username: wraithman Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2017 |
Tapped to cam surface should definitely be pre lubed. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 130 Registered: 2-2009 |
Hi Patrick, Oil pressure is OK on gauge. Of course any restrictions downstream from the oil pump will result in impressive oil pressure, but poor flow. Interesting symptom when it was intermittent (now all the time), engine starts noisy. Run till hot, still noisy. Shut off for 10 seconds, restart engine quiet. Stays quiet. Other times started noisy, but went quiet as it warmed up. Other times, quiet cold, quiet hot, quiet all the time. Feels like a sticky lifter. Robert, I will definitely lubricate the tappet surface prior to re-installation. Expect some near future images of crud. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1016 Registered: 4-2015 |
"now all the time"? Sorry, the object eludes me as to what is all the time. Good oil pressure, intermittent oil pressure, tapping, or no tapping? You seem to be committed to an engine teardown. Did the Motor Purr not work? It is best used when there is a constant symptom rather than intermittent because the result (if it works) can be witnessed almost immediately. It differs from "additives" like STP, Wynns, ATF, et cetera which mix and stay with the oil. Instead it is a volatile fluid that does its job and then evaporates. Within 24 hours or sooner there are no traces remaining in the oil. If it works, you can tell almost immediately but no product cures all ills under all circumstances. For varnish caused stickiness it probably works best. For years of heavy sludge it may likely be quite less effective. Used at the first sign of tapping lifters in my MPW (at purchase) it cured the as of that point undetermined cause which is now moot. Motor soon purred quietly as it should. I also threw a bottle into my 6 cyl Cloud engine at first sign of unusual tapping on start up once and that symptom has not returned. Of course that is an entirely different engine and in seconds the rocker cover can be removed and poured over rockers and down the tappets thereby flooding the components directly. While purely anecdotal, for me it has done its purpose twice. If successful, the $12 cost beats tens of hours of engine work. Being inherently lazy, I tend to take the low cost possibilities or easy paths first just to rule them out. Your call. Just saying. . | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 86 Registered: 6-2012 |
I would recommend pre charging them with oil. I have just done this on job on a 1964 V8 Silver Cloud engine as I have done in the past with zero problems. I am not sure how it is possible to bend a push rod doing this. If the whole tappet gets stuck in the tappet chest that will be a problem but filling them with oil, I think not. Using the starter motor to bring up the oil pressure is a good idea but it will not charge all the tappets properly as this can take some time with the engine running at tick over speed. Hope this helps | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2009 |
Well Christian, despite searching, I haven't found a source of supply of Jones' Motor Purr here in Brisbane. It doesn't look like there is a local distributor. If it was available, I'd possibly give it a go first, but that option doesn't appear available to me. As this is a chronic issue, and I'll have a little time coming up, I thought it might be wise not to beat about the bush any longer, and just clean the damn things manually. Besides, working on the car is very therapeutic I find. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1285 Registered: 2-2013 |
David I just received an email from Jones's Motor Purr in USA saying it has no distributor in Australia. Perhaps before you start pulling you engine apart you may wish to consider contacting them to see if they will export a bottle of it to you. Will be expensive perhaps and though I remain skeptical that it provides a permanent cure the fact Christian has recommended it seems to justify getting a bottle and trying it. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1026 Registered: 4-2015 |
Ebay, but posting would add significantly (but not exorbitantly) so get a few bottles. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1286 Registered: 2-2013 |
And if you go for the Motor Purr David I will take one bottle as the Purple Spirit has a noisy hydraulic lifter on start up that goes away after its warmed up. It should come in without Customs fleecemnent. | ||
| Mark Luft Prolific User Username: bentleyman1993 Post Number: 232 Registered: 10-2016 |
I think Vlad COULD BE the distributor for all of OZ. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1027 Registered: 4-2015 |
Gents... I just checked international shipping rates at US post office website and things are getting pricey but not prohibitive and are based on weight at about $10/pound. Out of curiosity I will weigh a bottle later if I still have one. . | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 1289 Registered: 2-2013 |
Vlad could indeed be. I am a bit amazed by product that's for sure and hope that as it is said to be capable of removing hard varnish from the hydraulic lifters, is it still kind to seals etc. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2009 |
This concept of shipping the Motor Purr Tune Up all sounds a bit crazy. There must be an equivalent type of cleaner already here in Australia and probably Brisbane that I can just go and buy. I've read about other brands on the net. Nulon do one which is supposed to be aggressive on varnish, but kind to the engine. These things usually are based on some fraction of hydrocarbon. The Motor Purr is obviously volatile. I've been searching for the MSDS to uncover the chemistry in hope of finding an exact equivalent already here without having to ship flammable liquids internationally on the slow boat of Christmas shipping. Also Steve Emmott has posted an awesome post that isn't showing up for me here. Can anyone else see it? | ||
| Steve Emmott Experienced User Username: steve_e Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2018 |
David, I have PM'd you but can't upload pictures with the message so I am adding the pictures here. I don't understand all the comments in the old thread I also sent you as you will see from the pictures there is a hole on the outer of the ones I have just unboxed so oil must be able to drain down. The pushrod seat may be an issue regarding profile but again it appears these could be changed over.   | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1036 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... What you say has validity. The logistics and timing are indeed awkward which is a pity for you will never know whether $20 would have solved the issue. On the other hand, a tear down and cleaning will be for sure and will likely reveal the root cause of the noise, whether varnish or wear. . | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2009 |
Hi Christian, I bought two bottles of Nulon Tappet free from Repco. It was on special - 50 % off. I had to buy two bottles as one bottle per 5 litres of sump oil and the Cloud has more than 5 litres. Oh, and yes it worked. Singer sewing machine no more! Now I need to buy some new belts, as the belt noise is now the loudest noise, but will monitor the situation. Incidentally, the car has only done 4080 miles since a full engine rebuild including 8 new pistons, wet liners etc. by the previous owner. That was 23 years ago however. I still have many activities to go, but yes that does appear to have been a good idea - I concede. | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2017 |
I had the tappet problem back in July (SCIII) and after much advice mixed half a litre ATF in oil with several runs, then changed oil and filter and noise disappeared completely until present… | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1039 Registered: 4-2015 |
David... Very fortunate that the alternate product was available locally....and that it addressed the issue, or rather that your issue was one of those the product was designed/intended to address. I would be inclined to use additional bottles periodically or certainly prior to any oil change interval to prevent recurrence of the varnish buildup. . | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1040 Registered: 4-2015 |
Felipe... ...noise disappeared completely "until present"? If the issue has recurred, you might consider a similar product to the Motor Purr or the Nulon. As noted, they do address some issues effectively. Whether yours is one of those issues remains to be seen pending use. As also noted, it is an inexpensive effort and results are almost immediate if effective. If not, then you can proceed to "Plan B". . | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.145.5.156 |
The later tappets had a "flat" ground down one face to improve the poor lubrication, of both the slightly domed contact face and the cam lobe. I clean my parts in cellulose thinners or carb cleaner. Well outdoors. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 136 Registered: 2-2009 |
Well Christian, I started the car today and tap tap tap - but just the one sticking. I stopped it after a few minutes. When I started it 10 minutes later it was again all quiet. Tomorrow - who knows! I think at some point I'm just going to have to stop shuffling Titanic's Deck Chairs and do it properly. | ||
| Paul Yorke Grand Master Username: paul_yorke Post Number: 2115 Registered: 6-2006 |
It may just be one tappet that is noisy once the engine has stopped in a possition where it is fully compressed. It might be interesting for you to mark the front pulley when you turn the engine off. Write down the v The mark ID and if it was noisy upon startinģ. You may find a pattern emerges. When you get the engine apart you can turn the engine to the noisy point and see which tappit is fully compressed. May be an extra pointer to help. | ||
| Christian S. Hansen Grand Master Username: enquiring_mind Post Number: 1048 Registered: 4-2015 |
While this may be a pity, don't mistake that the use of the product was not so much to heal the issue (although that was the end desired) but to inexpensively eliminate that possibility before embarking on the more arduous and expensive task. As initially noted, there is no product that solves all issues under all circumstances. Anecdotally, in some cases this product has worked. The test was whether this product solved you issue under your circumstances. Prior to its use, it was not clear if the tapping was still intermittent or had evolved into a constant presence, but the impression I got was that you had constant tapping. If such was the case then it can at least be said that the product improved or had an effect on the issue. In a case of intermittent tapping, it is impossible to ascertain any results given the random nature of the issue. Anyway, it is what it is, and a tear down will provide definitive answers. . | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 2019 Registered: 9-2004 |
Has been known to have a sticking valve or a week valve spring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! till engine hot maybe. | ||
| felipe heuser Frequent User Username: felipe Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2017 |
Christian...sorry, didn't phrase that very clearly... Not even the slightest tap since ATF/oil change ! Must see if I can find the Motor Purr to have in reserve in case... Also understand Marvel Mystery Oil is very good... problem as well here is importing liquids from the US... same on Ebay & Amazon...usually states 'this product will not send to your address' | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 147 Registered: 2-2009 |
Hi all, During my transmission / prop shaft road test today the car started with a noisy lifter. Normally once this happens it stays that way at idle. Took the car for a short drive. On the way back, pulled out to turn right just as another car crested the hill toward me. Gave the accelerator a boot full for the first time and heard the induction sound for the first time also. I never realised the old girl could lift her skirt and run if needed. 30 seconds later pulled into the driveway and engine was silent and smooth. It seems it just needs to be driven. If I can get rid of my current driveline issues, I think/hope it will all come together. | ||
| gordon le feuvre Prolific User Username: triumph Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2012 |
David, seem to recall that the manual states it can take up to 30 miles/1/2 hour driving to bleed tappets. this would include 2brisk2 driving and higher (for R-R)engine revs. NEVER try to prefill tappets, just rebuild with plenty oil around and over pushrods/rockers/tappets etc. She will clatter like hell for few mins and then quieten down. Some tappets take longer than others-hence the road test advice. Over the years, whilst working at R-R dealer have rebuilt Cloud 11/111, Shadow 1 & 11, Spirit and Arnage Red Label | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 148 Registered: 2-2009 |
Thanks Gordon. I started it again later from cold and noticed that at idle there was a very very faint chatter that was heard and then not heard cyclically about every 5 or 6 seconds. Like the oil would build then release then build then release. This was though a very faint almost imperceptible beat. There may be a clue in there somewhere. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3165 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, The "on-off" noise sounds like air bubbles coming through in the oil feed. Air is compressible, oil is not hence the intermittent nature of the noise. As Gordon says above, the tappets can take a long time to bleed.......query, is there a faulty joint in the oil pickup in the sump allowing air into the oil pump? . |
