| Author | Message | ||
     Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Grand Master Username: soviet Post Number: 982 Registered: 2-2013 |
This is a question that has gnawed on me for years. GM made a ton of these things for various models. RR used it. Question do any of the internals from the US cars is Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac fit in the GM four speed of RR/B? Richard Treacy must know the answer. | ||
| David Balfour Frequent User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 99 Registered: 2-2009 |
Yes, all of the major mechanical internal components are identical except the output shaft and body, and torus cover. However, Rolls-Royce made some subtle changes to valving spring rates and adjustments in order to tailor shift characteristics to meet Rolls-Royce requirements. The RR boxes were assembled by RR not GM. I have been told that RR used a slightly different clutch plate in the clutch packs, although I am not entirely confident that this is 100% accurate. Richard may know this part. Over time GM made changes to the components of the gearbox, probably including clutch packs. It was used in non-automotive GM applications as well (think tank transmission - 1 per side) l and the changes may just well reflect later evolutionary improvements. I think RR used this design well after GM had moved to newer designs like the Powerglide. What I can say is the output stages and the torus cover are unique to RR cars as ours have the mechanical servo. Unlike the pronunciation in "Grease", Grease may be the word, but the gearbox is a Hydramatic not a Hydromatic. Also, it is actually a dual range 2 speed automatic box, unlike the turbo-hydramatic which followed in the Shadows which was a genuine 3 speed. So first is Low 1, second low 2, third High 1 and fourth high 2. That makes the 2-3 shifts slower than the 1-2 or 3-4 because it has to change both range and ratio in a 2-3 shift. If you are buying an overhaul kit there are 1 or 2 critical gaskets or seals that are not found in the Fatsco version of the RR hydramatic kit, that need to be sourced independently, so I recall. Feel free to correct any technical errors I have made. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2940 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vladimir, I cannot help with the Hydramatic however based on my knowledge of the later T400 3 speed transmission, I suspect it would have been a Cadillac version and most likely unchanged as it was early days for auto transmissions and the US lead the world at the time. The T400 was a Cadillac version with some very minor R-R tweaks. I rebuilt the DRH14434 transmission using a standard B&M T400 transmission overhaul kit and the only additional part I had to purchase was a "wave" first clutch plate to replace the flat plate in the transmission kit. I did make the B&M suggested street and strip modification to the valve body to reduce clutch plate slip during gear changes. The R-R units are set up for imperceptible gear changes for normal driving however, they are prone to excessive clutch and friction plate wear in cars predominately driven in stop-start city traffic. The changes are firmer and slightly more noticeable in normal driving and come into play when driving enthusiastically [standard for me!!!!!!]. The rest of the transmission is standard GM Cadillac components if my memory is correct. . | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Prolific User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 179 Registered: 2-2005 |
I was told that using standard GM flat clutch plates leads to overly harsh gear changes. Get the correct vavy R-R clutch plates, they are still available from the specialists. Another critical point to get smooth gear changes is a shift linkage without any noticeable play, as the range of correct adjustment is very narrow. My twopence worth of inf. JoT | ||
| David Balfour Frequent User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2009 |
i was told the same thing about using the wavy plates in the clutch packs as Jonas. It's really hard to tell fact from fiction when it comes to the 4 speed Hydramatic. Wavy plates, flat plates, softer springs, firmer springs? My transmission was rebuilt using the flat plates. Shifts feel just as smooth as any other Silver Cloud I have driven or ridden in. Another friend also used the same plates that come in the Fatsco rebuild kit. Guess what, same smooth result! Anyone noticed harsh gear changes in a restored Cadillac? Bad adjustment can certainly lead to harsh gear changes. I heard the story about the wavy plates long before I rebuilt, but could not justify paying the prices for RR sourced parts for a US sourced gearbox, when US restorers and US gearbox specialists are using US kits with fine results. Do you really think a Hydramatic Specialist in the US sends to the UK for wavy plates when he builds a Rolls-Royce 4 speed hydramatic box? Perhaps the key is ensuring that all the overhaul parts are matched to each other and that the adjustments are correct. I suspect proper adjustment is the key to many issues. Speaking of adjustment, I also have some doubt about the accuracy of the Rolls-Royce transmission setting tools found in most export cars. The springs on these things are kept under compression their entire lives. Weather based thermal cycling means they likely stress relieve in time and lose some of their rate. They are set to spec by length adjustment, not force, but are required to deliver a specific force. I know someone measured one and found at the set length the force was nowhere near high enough. I think I saw a recommendation from a RR mechanic to use the tool with a different number of turns from the manual. Maybe to compensate for the setting spring. At least he can get consistent results with the tool. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2956 Registered: 4-2003 |
I purchased my "wavy" clutch plate from a transmission parts supplier with no mention of it being for a "R-R" transmission to avoid being charged "R-R' prices.The counter salesperson bought out a box of loose plates with a printed GM part number and product description on the outside. Fitting the "wavy" plate to the Turbo 400 was overkill on my part and insurance against possible clutch problems if I installed the flat plate supplied with the overhaul kit. I also made the "strip and street" valve body modifications suggested by B & M to reduce the inbuilt "smooth change" clutch slip in the interest of improving future clutch life. A recognised R-R repairer once told me the typical life of the T400 clutch plates was about 100,000Km in predominantly stop-start city traffic driving. | ||
| David Balfour Prolific User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2009 |
It's worth remembering that the 3 speed Turbo Hydramatic 400 (THM400) and the 4 speed Hydramatic are entirely different gearboxes. Still it's interesting that there is a clutch pack option. I still wonder if one style of plate is a "later" development? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 2957 Registered: 4-2003 |
I know....... however the "wave clutch plate" is common to both R-R/B versions of the Hydramatic and T400 auto transmissions hence my contribution. | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 109.149.198.181 |
We in the UK buy parts from "Fatsco" in the USA. They are the only genuine supplier of the wavy clutch plates variant for Rolls-Royce.They also have all the other GM pattern parts. See ebay.com. Motors. As with the old R-R Heavy clutch, the "wavies" give progressive engagement. The flat GM plates are 1-2 thump! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Mick hall Unregistered guest Posted From: 77.96.150.90 |
Re wave or flat clutch plates in four speed cloud g/box,if you want good changes Don’t buy.the mega expensive red faced flat plates from rr they result in bad changes,the fatsco plates are ok & there is a Mercedes benzeplatethat does the job,also I’m not a great fan of the drum seals that don’t have the brass expanders,they don’t air up sometimes when you check them. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| felipe heuser Experienced User Username: felipe Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2017 |
What exactly is the metalastik bush for the fulcrum lever in the gear change linkage and metalastik bush for the throttle control linkage purpose ? Could either one in a deteriorated condition cause problems with transmission gear changing ? | ||
| Trevor Pickering Frequent User Username: commander1 Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2012 |
Metalastik bushes consist of a cylindrical steel outer cover then a layer of "rubber" and then an inner cylinder of steel that the linkage shaft passes through. What happens is that the rubber in the "sandwich" breaks down over time and exposure to oil etc.and the bush stops doing its job of centralising the linkage shaft or bolt that passes through it. There are many of these on our cars and after 50 odd years they are failing. This will cause problems with your gear linkage if the bushes are badly decayed. You will have to go through all the linkage and adjust it to get all of the "slop" from the system and renew any badly worn items. This process is described in the Workshop manual with all the measurements for correct operation of the gear change. The brake bands in the gearbox may require adjustment as well. | ||
| nick bleasdale Yet to post message Username: nickb Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2020 |
Hi, I have a 63 silver cloud 3 . the transmission is slipping going into 3rd gear and changing back into 3rd from 4th gear. Any thoughts please and advise? is it adjustable or does it look like its an overhaul. No visible leaks. Thanks in advance | ||
| David Balfour Frequent User Username: sidchrome Post Number: 212 Registered: 02-2009 |
It may be adjustment. If you are not mechanically gifted, you need to get the car to a transmission guy, on a hoist and drop the transmission pan to check the state of the oil, filter screen, and pan for signs of any metal, clutch material etc. A judgement call can be made at that point on what to do next. The transmission needs to be adjusted using the two RollsRoyce adjustment tools, or somebody with a lot of experience on these transmissions in Rolls- Royces. Although the same hydramatic was used in GM models, and most of the parts are interchangeable, some of the adjustments differ. The Rolls-Royce TSD 471 will help. http://rrtechnical.info/autotransmissions/tsd471.html | ||
| Trevor Pickering Experienced User Username: commander1 Post Number: 177 Registered: 06-2012 |
Nick This is probably just an adjustment problem and may just need the linkage from the lever to the box checking as wear occurs at the joints and this can be adjusted at each one. There is a rubber boot over the joint and this usually perishes and allows ingress of water and grit causing wear. Clean out the joints and lubricate and install new boots. | ||
| Jim Walters Frequent User Username: jim_walters Post Number: 331 Registered: 01-2014 |
That sounds like a throttle valve adjustment to me. Read through the TSD 471. It is a very common fault point for these transmissions, I see it quite often and an adjustment of the throttle valve rod length can make a huge improvement in shifting. If you do need to have it rebuilt you are better off finding an old guy who knows these transmissions. Ask around at your local vintage car clubs, Cadillac and LaSalle in particular to see if they have a recommendation. Your chain transmission shop is likely not the best place to go, there won't be anyone there old enough to know them. SRH8505 SRC18015 SRE22493 NAC-05370 www.bristolmotors.com | ||
| nick bleasdale New User Username: nickb Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2020 |
Thanks Guys Ill have a look at thos things | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3929 Registered: 04-2003 |
I have received the following request from Peter Heiß relating to a Silver Cloud 1 automatic transmission - unfortunately I have no experience with the early fluid coupling Hydramatic transmission, only the later T400 torque convertor transmission so cannot offer specific advice: "Hello David, help for loosened the gearbox. All screws loosened and the gearbox won`t come off the engine. The converter and the 39 screws from the engine are also loosened. Does the traverse of the gearbox bracket have to be removed too ? How can you pull out the gearbox ? Thanks, Jens Peter" Hopefully one of our Silver Cloud members may be able to assist. | ||
| Trevor Pickering Experienced User Username: commander1 Post Number: 184 Registered: 06-2012 |
Yes you will need to remove the gearbox bracket and also the rod with rubber bushes on at the rear of the gearbox that prevents front/rear movement. There are also stabiliser arms at both sides of the rear of the box that prevent a torque reaction when a gear is selected. Loosen these as well. | ||
| David Hughes Experienced User Username: wedcar Post Number: 123 Registered: 07-2004 |
David/Peter http://rrtechnical.info/autotransmissions/tsd2042/tsd_2042_3_1_gearbox_to_remove_and_fit-4908.pdf This is the gearbox removal instruction from our technical website. Fully explains the process, S1 gearbox instructions are similar to S2 and S3, S1 are toward the end of the document. Regards David | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 3930 Registered: 04-2003 |
Thanks David for posting this link  . |
