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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 18 November, 2015 - 05:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

About two decades ago I whipped the top off an S3 Bentley which I was going to turn into a convertible. Then I welded it back on to sell it and all the other toys to do the divorce caper.

Looking at the images of Cloud convertibles (not to mention crawling the web to be horrified by the prices of the original convertibles which I understand where chopped from 4 doors by MPW) most of the convertibles have a large bulky and I think unsightly bag containing the lowered room. But there are some with a much smaller bag giving a far more elegant look.

Many year ago I am certain I saw in a book that I had but now no longer have, a Cloud convertible that had a very smart cover over the bag and had a trim profile ie not large bag behind the seat. Was I just imagining things?

Also, can anybody tell me, did MPW make up completely new doors for the convertibles or modify ie stretch the original doors. I don't think a conversion would need any strengthening to the chassis as it looks like it would hold up the harbour bridge.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 715
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 19 November, 2015 - 07:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The MPW rag tops were made from 4 door bodies that were suppied with things like the B post and roof structure not fitted. So they didn't take a 4 door car and chop the roof off.

Regardless of the separate chassis any rag top will need significant strengthing. Otherwise scuttle shake and rattling doors that jam.

Pressed Steel Ltd made the Cloud body. I would think that they made longer door frames and skins.

I have seen 4 door Clouds chopped to rag top. These cars are a nightmare because of the lack of strengthening in the right places, some have none.

The Shadow rag tops were built the same way. The body shell would be built so far and then sent to MPW. Then to Crewe for mechanical stuff then back to MPW for finishing and trim etc.

There's a 4 door Shadow rag top which looks awful. 22500 quid. No chance.

The Chinese eye S3 rag tops are expensive. These were built on a modified S3 floor pan. The rest was coach built.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 319
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 19 November, 2015 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

When you talk about the need for strengthening Bob are you talking about strengthening the chassis or the body or both. If the roof is removed and the pillar moved back the same distance as the originals and steel fabricated to fill the area where the rear door was then that would strengthen the body but just where would you attempt to strengthen the chassis. Has anybody seen an original convertible and observed exactly where it is strengthened.
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 84
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Thursday, 19 November, 2015 - 01:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir...
Maybe one of the Yankee RROC members will help. A few years back there was an article in their rag "Flying Lady" about a fellow who had a new Phantom (?) as I recall, chopped into a convertible and the issue and photos of the necessary strengthening were documented. While not precisely what you ask, it will still give an idea of what was required and how they did it.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1799
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 19 November, 2015 - 05:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

The Corniche bodies were fitted with a cruciform chassis brace under the passenger compartment to keep the front and rear sections of the body in alignment and to enhance the torsional stiffness.

I had to remove this brace when I rebuilt the T400 transmission to remove the transmission and was somewhat miffed later on after reinstalling the transmission to find the cruciform did not align properly with the mounting brackets as the centre section of the body shell had sagged following removal of the brace.

I had to resort to brute force and no finesse to successfully replace the brace by using timber blocks and a large hydraulic floor jack to lift the centre body section sufficiently to align the brace with the mounting brackets and allow the retaining bolts to be fitted.

I am still in Sydney at the moment and do not have access to my archives which should include a video taken at the 2002 Federal Rally where I did a presentation on body structure and maintenance requirements with DRH14434 on a hoist and the brace should be prominent in this video - I must admit I have never watched the video since it was made due to other matters intervening.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 722
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 20 November, 2015 - 08:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The chassis didn't need extra structure just the body.

With out a roof the only thing that holds the body to together in the middle is the floor and sills or rockers. The roof if fitted is around 4 to 5 ft higher. This greatly increases the strength of the body. Its like a 5 ft deep girder compared to a 6" deep girder. The 5ft deep girder will resist sag and twisting. The 6 " one won't resist the moments any where as well leading to rattling doors and scuttle shake.

All convertibles suffer from scuttle shake. Some are barely noticeable and some such as Truimph Herald convertibles and Spitfire are really bad. The doors used to jam and needed shoulder barging to get out in the car, which cracked the door skin by the quarter light.

I am surprised that removing the crucifix from a drop head allowed the body to sag. And just goes to show how much strength a roof puts into a body.

However all is not rosy. Many cars are designed with a gap between the rear of the front wing and the A post. It saves lead loading the area. But more importantly it allows the front end to move a tad in relationship to the cabin. This is why Shadows develop cracks in paint work at the A post to wing area.

Short nosed vehicles such as vans and people carriers as better in this respect.


The rear roof on a Shadow is supported by a wide member so the rear is stronger than the front.

The problem at the front is that the driver needs to see so slender pillars. Lower down they are fatter and support the doors and are braced by the inner and outter wings. The bottom is very stiff but right by the wing to scuttle area it gets slender. This causes stress to focus on that area like a notch .

The Dukes of Hazard bent quite a few Chargers up at the rear of front wing scuttle area by jumping them over stuff.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1801
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 20 November, 2015 - 01:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob,

My assessment of the main reason for the body movement was the cruciform brace effectively linked the front and rear subframes which were the main load-carrying elements for the body into a rigid structure. When I removed the transmission, the body was supported by 4 heavy duty chassis stands appropriately placed under the front and rear sub frames instead of the supports detailed in TSD2476 as these would have interfered with getting the transmission out from under the vehicle using a home-made transmission support frame on a floor jack.

I was "between a rock and a hard place" as the vehicle was immobilised due to a ruptured oil cooler hose dumping all the transmission fluid as I began to climb the driveway causing the clutch packs to disintegrate. It was impossible for a tow truck/tilt tray retrieval vehicle to get up the steep and narrow right-of-way which provides access to my home and garage. The only solution to getting the vehicle mobile again was to remove the transmission and either overhaul it myself or take it to a transmission specialist; the challenge of doing it myself was irresistible and I am fortunate everything was OK when the work was completed.

With the benefit and wisdom of hindsight, I was very fortunate that I was able to successfully replace the brace as it very easily could have been extremely difficult or impossible if I had not been able to devise a way of reversing the body movement as a consequence of removing the brace.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 325
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 20 November, 2015 - 09:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Great information Bob and David. If I manage to get some more work before I retire in 6 years plus I am going to get a Cloud and convert it because working with metal is what I really enjoy even more than mechanical capers and I want to see if I can make a very super smooth convertible without the unsightly bag for the top being so prominent.

I realise it may destroy the value of the car being not original but I don't care because when it gets sold I will be far far away in a different space time continuum or dead as Dilinger or both. Must have a convertible Cloud - totally essential because they are horrifically decadent vehicles.

The conversion entailing all types of capers like hand forming the new front doors and moving the pillar back and welding in a new panel for the rear door area is going to entail all types of scallywag goings on and a lot of blood sweat and tears to get it right.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 726
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 21 November, 2015 - 06:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think the Cloud body is not rigidly mounted to the chassis and has slightly flexible mountings.

So if the pads are removed and replaced with solid stuff like steel the chassis can be used to hold the front to the back.

Adding more depth to the sills will also impart rigidity.

The doors are aluminium and the rear quarters are steel. Remove front door skin. Cut and shut the frame about 4 " longer and make ally door skin to fit. The rear doors are not needed. A frame from steel to join the b post to rear quarter and a steel skin to fit.

I would do this before the roof is removed and when mucking around with body mounts make sure all 4 doors open and shut nice.
The doors have frames which will need to be removed. This presents problems with wind down windows.

Ideally a cheap down at the heal cloud should be brought.

The most difficult is the hood. The trim is also expensive. So try to design using the original bits. Restoring trim is cheaper than making from sratch.

A mate cut the roof off a 2 door Vauxhall Viva. He didn't bother with a hood and kept the car under cover and used it summertime only. The coversion took 5 days. The doors used to rattle. Eventually cracks appeared in the floor pan so he scrapped the car. The only glass was the front windshield. The door tops were welded up and the frame removed. It looked quite sleek.

Check out the MG Midget. Notice the very deep sill and small doors.

Proportions.

This is difficult. The best way is to draw the car full size on the garage wall and start from there.

Example.

If one looks at prewar cars the radiator is often directly above the front axle centre. The Cloud is in front of the axle.

To get measurements just right. Erect a girder horizontal above the car and square to the car. Use the girder as datum points. Lock the suspension at ride height. So that nothing moves around.

I also like working metal. Its more fun than dirty oily mechanical work. The tools are few as well mainly snips, a hammer and sand bag
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 341
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 03:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Bob you said "Adding more depth to the sills will also impart rigidity." I am a bit puzzled by this and wonder if you can explain. I can't imagine by depth you mean add metal to the bottom of the sills or the top of the sills so I can only think you mean to thicken the sills by boxing them on the inside of the sill ie towards the tailshaft.

I cannot remember the underneath of the Cloud but I would not be surprised that the chassis sits there up against the inside of the sill. If it does there is no way that I can imagine that the sills can be given more depth.

One could strengthen the sills by cutting out the inside and welding large thick metal tubes inside of the sills and then welding back in the inside side of the sill. It would be a bugger of a job but if strengthening the sills is required then it has to be done. I would be really interested in getting hold of the plans of how the originals were done. Somebody must have these somewhere.

You are the first person I have know to state the convertibles where originally delivered without the four doors and that makes sense as they were going to have to be discarded.

I understand what you say about the complexity of the hood. If I am correct the RR convertible top was quite a piece of work in that it was lined inside quite unlike say a Cadillac top which has exposed metal folding structure.

One thing I want to do if I make this convertible is make it so the bag for the convertible roof disappears totally giving the car a smooth look. I think the convertible tops on the Jensen Interceptor convertible look positively hideous and even more hideous are the early VW beatle tops.

The info and advice you have set forth is gratefully appreciated. This is a caper I hope to get up to when I finally retire in 5 years.

Yep chopping up a Rolls Royce. Nothing like it I say. But I think it better to rescue any Cloud down on its luck and chop its head off than let it be broken up leaving the classic body lines to rust in some breaker's yard.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 739
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 06:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The Cloud like the Shadow has more or less a flat floor that is level with the top of sills. If the door were shortened in height allowing the sills to be higher, and giving a well in the floor. However this could totally ruin the look.

I believe that the outer egde of the Cloud body sits on outriggers and there isn't a longitudinal chassis member behind the sills.

So remove outer sill and weld a diaphragm inside made from 4 mm steel with large hokes in the middle for less weight. The holes don't weaken the part, but adequate meat must be left. Say at least 2 " of meat around any given hole. The diaphragm must reach well forward. So the bottom of the front wing will have to be cut away to get in there. This should be done with roof still fitted and doors opening and closing properly and the body still attached to the chassis. Also bonnet and boot lid should be fitted to check for torsional twist. Once the diaphragms are welded in any twist or sag will be difficult to put right if it can. The gaps must be checked frequently.

4 door convertibles. If the b post each side is connected together just behind the front seats this also stiffens the body.

On 2 door convertibles this is not possible because rear seat passengers can't get in. So often the bottom of the B post is gusseted with a triangular box section.

The hood is real tricky and can make or break a convertible. So study other convertibles with a tape measure because you may find a totally different car that has a hood that fits.

There's one set of dimensions that is commom to any car and that is the size of people. So panels from other cars can sometimes be used. Wheel arch repair panels and sills are like that. So a rare car gets repaired with a modified Ford sill.
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Mark Aldridge
Prolific User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 269
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 07:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have seen this company's work http://www.classicrestorations.co.uk/ , which was very impressive. They may advise. The sill on a Cloud is already triangulated inside, and quite a substantial structure.
Mark
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 95
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 02:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Mark...
Serendipity smiled on me today for which I thank you. Checked the link and see that they make a power assisted steering device for EPW RR/B which I have always desired for my '55 Silver Dawn. I sent an inquiry email and will report back.

Yes, the saloon to coupe conversion looks appealing. I was afraid to ask costs though! If anyone does, please report in.
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Chris Browne
Prolific User
Username: chrisb

Post Number: 234
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 07:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

When we first acquired our 1958 Cloud 1 standard steel saloon and were pondering what to do with it, one of the early options was to make it into a convertible. We contacted the firm in question for a rough idea of the cost. To be fair to them , they said that every conversion was different so they could not give a firm estimate but as a rule of thumb, if the customer provided a "sound" car which did not need restoration work before the conversion was done, the cost would be around 80,000 and that was without final finishing. This was also five years ago. I would imagine that there are very few, if any, cars around that would not require substantial repairs and restoration before a conversion could be started. I saw one of their Cloud conversions in light metallic blue at an RREC rally some years ago which was priced at 300,000! Although it was very well done, I thought that was a bit extreme for what is, essentially, a kit car.
Just out of interest, the car in the photo below appeared on E.Bay shortly after we bought our car and we went to have a look. Someone had thought that it was an easy DIY project and come seriously unstuck and ran out of talent or money or both. It was very badly done and had stood outside for years. It sold for 1,500.

Kind regards,

Chris
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Chris Browne
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Username: chrisb

Post Number: 235
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 07:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Failed DIY conversion.

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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Ouch! Ughh!
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 345
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Tuesday, 24 November, 2015 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What a sad sad sad sight. Such a grand classic. I think Bob is right on the money about leaving the roof cutting to last in that one really has to strengthen the body first.

It does appear though that who ever did it has managed to extend the front door. I daresay the little rod going from the pillar to the rear door jam looks a bit of an after thought.

So 80,000 sterling is a not insubstantial sum and neither is 300,000 sterling either.

These cars look so super cool when they are convertibles that I think its worth the risk. This particular sad example could be the result of something evil interrupting the conversion logistics (ie hint: the female species) But even though the old girl looks thoroughly ghastly I would take a project like that on.

A partially disassembled car can really freak the general public. I had to remove the remains of a deceased rodent from the air conditioning unit of a late model Nissan Navara and that entailed basically stripping the interior of the vehicle right back to the fire wall as our little Asian friends decided to build it with holes in which rodents could find their way into the inside of the AC unit which was the last thing to come out of the car after removal of the entire dash. This lady had driven the car with the rodent decomposing and had established a fantastic maggot farm inside the airconditioner which produced a smell so severe that she could not longer drive the car and concentrate of the road - the smell being so vile.

When she saw her car in pieces she almost flipped out totally and appeared to wonder if it could ever be put back together. Fortunately I had spent a good portion of my earlier years in a place that did a lot of left to right hand conversions so it was no big thing for me. Oh the left to right hand conversions - yes another example of governmental stupidity which resulted in large amount of classic vehicles being butchered and made very dangerous. Finally the authorities here realised after decades that it was far safer to let enthusiasts onto the roads with left hand drive cars than to keep up their loon demands for conversions.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1755
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Does anyone happen to know if Germany, or any other country on the European continent, used to or still does require RHD-to-LHD conversions?

These have never, to my knowledge, been required in the USA. At some point in its history SRH33576 underwent this transformation and I think she spent time in Germany prior to landing in Florida.

Brian
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ChristopherCarnley
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Posted From: 213.122.123.158
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 01:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

See what Racing Green Engineering in (Old) South Wales, do with knackered MK VIs, R Types and a few S1,s. The R Type Continental (Fast back)recreation
is a joy to behold and they can't make enough of them
The power steering setup from the Scottish firm, involves the cutting of the steering column and inserting a proprietary Japanese made electric motor and gearing arrangement. The engine controls then go "up the other spout".

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 08:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christopher...
Thanks for the information on the Scottish firm as they have not responsed to either email I sent last night. Sorry to hear it involves cutting the steering column. Not sure if I was prepared for that. The other likely bad news will be the cost of the kit and cost of installation. I can imagaine the kit to not be too pricey, but if it involves removing and chopping the column that will add up quickly. Do I hear $5-7K by the time you drive away? Any inside info you can pass along there?
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 749
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 08:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Notice how weedy the sill looks on the scrap cloud. Nightmare.

I think it would cheaper to restore an original DHC rather than try to make one. I have no problems with strengthening it the hood that scares me. Because every diy chop top I have seen leaks water bad and flaps in the wind.

Vladimir. Why not get a cheap car and chop that first to get an understanding of complexity. Chop the door and remove the frame and get the glass to work properly and seal against the hood etc. You can't do this without careful thought ad libing will result in dismal failure. The seal between the front side glass and the hood is so difficult to design. It kippered the jag XJ6 Coupe for about 3 years before Jag got it right and that was a FHC.

Buy the car in the above photo for 50 quid. Well its a start!! The bracing rod is to hold the b post in position while the frame is welded in place for the steel skin to marry up to the rear quarter. This is common practice when chopping cars. The frame should have been fitted before the roof was removed. Also the new b post position should be welded in before roof removal. Make a pillarless coupe first then chop the roof.

I once dreamed I had cut the top off my Shadow. But then the dream went to monsters in the loft.

UK excepts LHD cars. Converted cars are still subject to a Mot so any dodgy coversions get picked up. Saw a Cadillac Seville with a chain behind the dash to drive the steering and rods inside to work the brake pedal. The gas pedal was cable and moved to righthand. The dash was a bit of a mess. It looked safe though.

I am always suspicious of side changes. The suspension is set for road camber on a lot of cars. Shadows have heavier rear spring on driver's side.

Most LUK LHD prestige cars get sold in mainland Europe. Its only 22 miles. A local dealer came across a LHD XJ6 going cheap he sold it in France for double bubble. Conversion in that case would have been stupid.
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 99
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 01:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir...
For "Lust Value" alone, you absolutely MUST check out the drophead coupe offering at the facility suggested by Christopher Carnley. I am sure they are PRICEY but the photos are professional and jaw dropping.
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1758
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 02:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian,

Did you just quickly edit your post regarding the RROC-US's publication? I can't be losing my mind that badly.

In any case, I believe the car you're recalling is the one-off Rolls-Royce Hyperion by Pininfarina. It used a Phantom coupe as its donor car, if memory serves, but very little of the original remains in the final product other than the powertrain, steering wheel, and parts of the dash.

As to those jaw dropping photos you're referencing they have to be in order to match the price.

Brian
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Christian S. Hansen
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Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 100
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 05:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian...
I am envious of your certainty regarding your mind. As for my own, it rarely follows me around very often and so when I need it, I have to go looking for it.

I do occasionally edit posts when I see spelling or typo errors and I "thought" I had said something about posting the Flying Lady photos if I find them, but that section is not there now. I suspect that I may have inadvertantly deleted it while correcting other errors.

As to the Hyperion, no that is not it. The one in the Flying Lady story was red and looked a lot like a Phantom saloon converted to ragtop. My recollection was that the project started before any convertible was offered, and was thusly an effort to create what was not at that time available.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 346
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Wednesday, 25 November, 2015 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Part of the excitement of beheading a Cloud is not in the end product altogether but is in the process of disproving the naysayers. I love to show the naysayers that things that they say can not be done can be done.

There is also the challenge of making something better than the original. I have never been one for this original caper. The market generally is original brainwashed. I put original into the same basket as "previously owned by a titled gentlemen .....driven exclusively by Elvis to the Graceland front gate and back....Shown in The Italian Job for a fleeting microsecond.......sneezed on in Mayfair by Peter Cook and Dudley plus original potato chip bag from video included.....Has been seen in the same street as Jeremy from Top Gear when he wagged school and stole dog collars for beer money " This type of bluster does not a thing for me.

There is a Rolls Royce Camargue convertible in the USA somewhere, a white one and I have read that whoever did it did an outstanding job. Camargue never had retracting rear side windows but this one does. The originals were fixtures which was pretty cheeky of Crewe given the price tag. I don't think the saleman ever said "and Sir for twice the price of a Silver Shadow we throw in for nothing rear side windows you cannot wind down." The Camargue I am talking about is a rigid top convertible not a canvas top. I think an amazing lot of thought and work went into it.

I think there is also a possibility that I may buy a Shadow one day and chop it too but make it so the roof goes all the way down and does not sit up like an ugly afterthought. It is of course essential to have a Shadow because of the superb driver's position and view.
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Geoff Wootton
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Username: dounraey

Post Number: 1028
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 01:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir

I have no doubt you have the capability of succeeding at this project and it has been interesting reading the speculation about it. However, the elephant in the room is cost. I imagine Chris Browne reads this thread with a wry smile. I once asked if a restoration of a Cloud could be done for $40k and he replied "at least double what you have suggested". Add to that the colossal cost of the lined hood and frame and I reckon you are looking at $100k for a restoration/conversion of Rolls Royce quality. There is also the small matter of at least 5000 man hours to do it.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
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Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1759
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 01:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

As the old saying goes, "You can do anything with sufficient time and money!"

Vladimir, you're thinking of the Niko-Michael conversion. Photos here. If ever there were examples of enough time and money this car and the Cloud convertible conversions are those.

Christian, I have absolutely no recall of the car you refer to, which surprises me a bit. However, my curiosity isn't enough to make me plow through the archive copies of The Flying Lady that I have from my period of membership in the RROC-US.

Brian
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 347
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 01:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good point Geoff but the man hours are free for me and as for a lined hood I am going to get hold of a 1970's Cadillac Hood and modify it to fit. Lining will come later if I choose but I would rather have the hood come down under the back of the car and a panel fit over it for a smooth finish than have the luxury of the lined hood. As for restoration I do all the paint, panel, upholstery and mechanical so with that it brings the price way down.

I really don't know what the cost would be and for me it never matters because I never sell I only buy and when I'm grub fodder somebody else can whine that I spent too much.

To go through life without a convertible Rolls Royce well it just won't do.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1760
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 02:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir wrote: To go through life without a convertible Rolls Royce well it just won't do.

Well, given what I know about restoration projects in general, custom work in particular, and your personal list of projects from here, the strong likelihood is that "it'll have to do" unless you just go ahead and buy an existing DHC.

Brian
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 756
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 06:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The convertible Camargue was in primrose and was Crewe approved.

A folding metal roof would be good.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1812
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 08:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The folding roof on the Camargue appears to be similar to the type fitted to the Ford Thunder Bird convertibles in the "tail fin era" of the 1960's. I wonder how much space was left in the boot/trunk when the roof was fully retracted.

My partner's VW Eos convertible has a retracting multipiece metal roof which also includes a sunroof however the mechanism is far more complicated to minimise the amount of boot space taken up by the roof sections leaving enough space for two reasonably large rectangular suitcases sold as an option by VW. IMHO this is a future classic collector's vehicle as it is no longer in production and it is unlikely a similar hard-top convertible will be made in future due to the costs involved and limited market which is dominated by "soft-top" vehicles.

Having seen this Camargue, the Corniche is under serious if not terminal threat as my favourite R-R every day vehicle. Final decision can only be made after I have seen the Camargue convertible in the metal. Unfortunately, this vehicle will have to be a dream unless a wealthy unknown relative bequeaths me a substantial inheritance to finance a Camargue conversion.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1762
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Based on the prior two posts, I gather there are at least four one-off Camargue convertibles.

I've posted to photos of the Niko-Michael, there's another white one that's shown on Marinus Rijkers' pages here, and another from Newport Convertible Engineering here.

Does anyone have a link to photos of the other that Bob_UK mentions?

They won't tempt me, because I have never been able to warm to the Camargue. I'd far sooner rather have a Corniche DHC or a Cloud DHC (neither of which I'll ever have, but what the heck).

Brian
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David Gore
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Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 01:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian,

The soft-top Camargue convertibles do not appeal to me as much as the Corniche alternative - the hood storage is downright ugly due to its size. I learnt to live with the Corniche hood storage but a Camargue soft-top........

The hard-top Carmargue is another story altogether as I am attracted to cars designed in the 1960/1970 era as they retained their individuality unlike the later amorphous designs foisted onto the market. The lines and proportions of the Camargue hard-top convertible are classic clean design and that is why I am keen to see it in the metal.

Vladimir, you might have to pension-off Pussnasty and replace it/him/her [choose appropriate term to match any medical intervention] with a mean guard dog to protect your Camargue - it might be a good prospect for conversion .
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 348
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Thursday, 26 November, 2015 - 08:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It is interesting David you talk about Camargue conversions that is converting it from a 2 door coupe to a convertible.

I would say that I would never attempt such a thing simply on the basis that there were only 184 (or thereabouts) right hand drive Camargues ever built over a 10 year period. Given the time since the last one was built there may only be 100 left in existence. The car is quite simply for me far too rare and in far too good condition for me to chop it.

In many ways the Camargue is really a disappointing car in that it is basically just a Shadow with a different body and interior apart from the Solex carby. I still think the Camargue should have been offered with a 600 hp Cadillac engine (with RR valve covers ) and a beefed up drive line. It should have been a truly unique car not just a pretend unique car. Something that just lept from the traffic lights like Toad of Toad Hall Loony. Had it been beefed up mechanically I would say even with its questionable looks it would be today only sold for mega prices. Still its still a very rare car even if I do think Crewe really hoodwinked the clientele with Camargue.

A Cloud I could do and I would still keep working on it for as long as it took to get it right. I am very much a lunatic perfectionist when it comes to body work so how long it will take me is another matter. Clouds unfortunately are rising in value I think. Shadows, again I would really like a Shadow Convertible with the usual Shadow rear end which I always liked.

On the ghastly topic of beheading cars that were never made as convertibles a 1965 Buick Riveria and Jaguar 420G are two more cars I would like turn into super swank convertibles. Furthermore, Humber Super Snipes also because they would be and incredibly difficult car to mould into an attractive convertible but they are in Australia cheap at the moment.

PussNasty being a murderess perpetual serial killer and having been fitted with a Hannibal Lector leather face mask is horrified that you could mention the three legged word "DOG"
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1816
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 07:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

My comment about replacing PussNasty was based on the old saying "you can own a dog but never a cat" - in times of need a dog will usually be there with you but a cat..............

I have never been able to form a constant opinion about the styling of the hardtop Camargue but there is something in the photos of the hard-top convertible that appeals to me and this is why I would really like to see the car close-up. The only time undertaking a conversion would be justified is having the financial resources to have it done professionally to the highest standards. The soft-top versions are such that I am left with the impression that they are not an enhancement of the original design whereas the hard-top convertible conversion appears from the photos to achieve this. Of course, the donor car would be one that is in need of some TLC and not a pristine original vehicle. As far as the engine goes, I would seriously consider reverting to the SU twin carburettors of the Shadow for reliability and maintenance reasons or to fitting a later fuel injection system. I doubt if the car would ever have to face emission testing and this alone facilitates the decision to consign the Solex carburettor to "keep until needed" storage after the initial re-registration inspection has been completed.

My intention would be to use the car normally and not as a "garage queen" to only appear at static displays and concours "battle of the cheque books" occasions. It is my belief classic cars should be seen being used on a regular basis and accessible under supervision to the general public and not fenced off behind barriers to be only accessible to the privileged few. Whilst I was custodian of DRH14434, any one interested in the car was offered a ride and there are a considerable number of people who have enjoyed a "top down" ride in the Corniche who might not otherwise have had the opportunity to ride in a Rolls-Royce.
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 765
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I think garage queens are a waste of a car. The car is never used never serviced just polished. Some don't even have batteries fitted. If one did use such car after years of queen ship then within a few miles the car starts playing up anthing from squeaky heater fan bearings to reluctant gearboxes and rubber splitting and dragging brakes etc etc.

Battles of cheque books.

A mate restored an E Type to conkers de elphants standard and it won a prize. The owner who merely wrote out a monthly cheque took all the credit. It cost 50k.

The convertibles 4 door Shadow I saw was awful. The doors still had frames and the edges of the roof and gutter were still there. It was like a fabric sunroof that went all the way to the boot.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 350
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I agree, trailer/garage queens are a waste of a car. Strangely I get asked this question often by people who find out I have a few classic cars "what are you going to do with them ?"

Generally, I am not violent but sometimes I just want to knock out these people out for asking such an idiotic question. I have to take a deep breath and say "well I am going to enjoy them" or "I am going to drive them". But I thought maybe I should answer a stupid question with a stupid answer as this is a very Russian tradition for dealing with drunk men who always as silly questions. One of my students who had a doctorate from Moscow State University in mechanical engineering used to hurl back stupid answers to stupid questions at drunks as we walked in the snow.

I'm thinking maybe something like "Well I am glad you asked me that question, because as its as its a Camargue I am going to ship it to Shanghai where I have a chinese businessman, a devoted communist who is going to pay me with two teenage nubile but legal girls, several tea chests full of firecrackers and a water front luxury unit"

Sometimes I think these morons expect me to say " well I am going to use it as a launch vehicle to enter the atmosphere of Mars, possibly next week "

I detest all 4 door convertibles even Lincoln Continentals. They are simply wrong. If and when I do a conversion it will always be finished in two doors. Four door convertibles are horrid things which should be banned along with rice, and Japanese and or Asian cars, together with hip hop, rap and disco music, answering phone machine robots.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 109.148.48.240
Posted on Friday, 27 November, 2015 - 07:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

See Beyonce in her blue R-R Silver Cloud 11 with the top down, and weep!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 767
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Saturday, 28 November, 2015 - 07:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I ran into a friend in Tescos car park he was gob smacked that I was in my Shadow and used it for the weekly shop. He knows I have a Shadow.

As RR manager once said to a very enthusiastic gushing motoring journalist "Its only a car mate" I added mate for dramatic effect.

I worked for a guy who brought a new RR or Bentley every 3 years. He treated them as normal cars. Like any body with a later model car he took reasonable care. But we ran out of cement and the job we was doing was worth millions so he loaded a Bentley up with bags of cement. He got the car valeted after. Tough cars.

4 seat rag top touring cars in the style of 1930s cars are nice but draughty.

These aren't as differcult as chopping a Cloud. Simple ladder frame chassis with cruciform. Weyman type construction of ash frame and doped canvas. Use post 1950 mechanicals of any Crewe product. A Turbo R engine should satisfy your power lust.

There is available all the bits new. Stuff like folding windshield frames in chrome on brass. Door handles and locks. Giant headlamps. Hinges. Aluminium extruded section for door egde reinforcement.

There's lots of pictures of cars of this period on the net.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 352
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Saturday, 28 November, 2015 - 07:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christopher ! That is enough torture!!

Its horrid to see a female in charge of such a rare RR/B and enough to propel one deep into the Vietnamese jungle with a truck full of beer and a trailer full of Mary Jane to make some sense out of life.

Just horrid to see this singer whose even one song I cannot name with the stars and stripe hotpants next to the DHC. I can only counter my feelings of white hot jealousy by sitting in the Camargue with PussNasty and having visions of Doctor Evil and Mr Bigglesworth. Spoilt my whole day, I think I will break out the handguns and go and blow some fast moving lizards away in the bush for therapy this morning

This post is relevant technically on the basis of the psychogical effect of the grand sweeping lines of the Cloud series on the Russo/Australian mind which surely must have been on the designers mind decades ago in Crewe, Lenin himself have communistically acquired his own Rolls Royce during Soviet starvation times.
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1764
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Saturday, 28 November, 2015 - 03:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir wrote: I detest all 4 door convertibles even Lincoln Continentals.

Then you can send all the lovely spare ones you find "lying about" to me.

The only reason I tolerate coupes at all is because, other than the 1960s vintage Lincoln Continental convertible, that's the only style of convertible you can get.

I'm over 6 feet tall, and have been since I was in my late teens. I have had enough of trying to get into and out of the rear seat of coupes to last 10 lifetimes and it's only easy from a convertible with the top down (and still not as easy as it would be with a rear door per rear seat passenger.

I'd far rather have a door per passenger position in cars that are really not roadsters.

If Lincoln was able to make 4-door convertibles in the 1960s, many of which are still cruising around today, no one can convince me that "it's just not possible."

Brian
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.169.76.194
Posted on Saturday, 28 November, 2015 - 08:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

Not that I ever intended to make you white hot with rage, but I believe it cost " Miss Pointless Thunder Thighs" about $2m!
Have you read the Hansard reports of how the British Government persuaded Messrs R-R to sell to the Russians,Derwent and Nene jet engines and full sets of drawings?
The Comrades had already been to Derby, wearing soft soled shoes to pick up fragments of turbine alloy.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1821
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 29 November, 2015 - 07:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christopher,

Reminds me of the reason why the Messerschmidt ME109 engine was installed sump uppermost and the R-R Merlin engine sump side down in the Spitfire and Hurricane. This is contained in an information display in the Battle of Britain Museum at Havinge near Folkestone [well worth a visit if you have not been there but allow time to read the history and personal stories displayed - I spent most of a day there and could have stayed longer].

Apparently, a group of German aircraft industry engineers visited the R-R plant at Derby in the mid-1930's and, whilst they were in the Engineering offices, saw a wood mock-up of the Merlin engine block upside down on a transport dolly. One of the German engineers must have done some lateral thinking and suggested to the group that the British were obviously working on an "upside down" version of the V12 engine to overcome the forward and downwards vision restrictions for pilots due to the width of the upper engine cowling needed to cover a "conventionally" installed V12. Increasing the field of vision would greatly assist in dog fights and landing. The in-development German V12 fighter engine was accordingly designed for "upside down" installation with oil scavenge from the cylinder heads and mechanical fuel injection [especially beneficial as the engine did not suffer from fuel surge problems in the intense dog-fight aerobatics]. The wartime R-R counter measure of locating field engineers at each fighter air field to get immediate feed-back on improvements to their aircraft performance meant modifications could be quickly devised and implemented to avoid reducing the effectiveness of the British aircraft. I have read references quoting that some instances occurred where the morning pilots reported changes in the German fighter performance and R-R were able to immediately advise changes in engine settings for the field engineers to implement in time for the afternoon battles.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 355
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 29 November, 2015 - 08:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Brian I sympathize with your height. The Mad Scot is over 6 foot tall and I love to tease him about his head hitting the roof of a 1970s Toyota Corolla he keeps as a secondary car and invite him to simply remove the front seat and sit in the back. On top of this poor Mad Scot has size 14 feet which are another point that I can rib him about.

The Lincoln Continental is indeed a great car and possibly the only 4 door I like but probably only because of the super cool positioning of the door handles together and the rear suicide doors.

If you don't you should check out www.carsales.com.au as this is one of the largest sites for classic cars in Australia. The good point about Australia is the climate is kind to classic machinery - no salt on the road for the snow that type of incredible caper and so really we have a lot of classic USA made cars here now to the point that really its not much sense in importing from the USA especially since our dollar has gone feral again. Such a pity the USA made such fantastic shaped cars in 1950s to 1978 max and then thoroughly lost the plot.

I look back on history and think if only the Americans said to our little camel riding oil owning friends " Look I tell you what, sell the oil and tons of it at a reasonable price or we are going to light you up like Hiroshima - yeehaa !" and that Ralf Nader was taken away for vivisection by aliens the world would have been a better place.

This post is relevant to this area of the forum by my announcing that had the Mad Scot invested his money into a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud instead of a new Kia Sorento, he would have had a rolling investment which would have also catered for his incredible height and conveyed him is a style fit for a king but being a loon Scot in the Sorento conveys him with all the style of the wandering unwashed.
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 356
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Sunday, 29 November, 2015 - 09:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christopher if Madam Stars and Stripes Panties paid $2m for that car then somebody made a hilarious profit that will no doubt turn up in Guiness Book of Records.

I do know that Stalin could not believe how crazy the British were to actually allow the sale of RR engines to the Soviet Union. I saw a documentary where he made a comment something like " who sells something like these to their enemies" or words to that effect. He found it incredible.

David I have always wondered why no auto manufacturer I know has ever made an upsidedown V engine car. I wondered if the weight would be closer to the ground improving handling and steering. Thought maybe because it would be a mongrel to do the cylinder head service and or removal on. Who knows with the crazy designs today and their difficulty to repair:- the fact that one had to remove the front wheels and inner guards of Clouds to access the spark plugs on V8 models seem now nothing to complain about.

I think that new car reviewers should give a score of one out of ten for ease of ability to repair and also on cost of parts. I would taking 10 as the highest score give most cars today a 2 on both and most cars of the 1950 to 1978 around 7 or 8. Sadly I think we are fast approaching a time where cars will be totally unrepairable and the public will be forced by governments and manufacturers to buy another one just like we do with all the junk Chinese made white goods thesedays.

Call me a pessimist, I will accept that title because it appears to me that the car trade is going the same way as the footwear trade went a long time ago.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1822
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 29 November, 2015 - 04:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Vladimir,

Bentley Motors have gone part of the way - apparently the first line of the workshop manual for changing the spark plugs on their W12 engine reads:

1. First remove engine from car.

Regarding your query re an inverted "V" engine in a car, my initial thoughts are the centre of gravity for an inverted engine would be higher than that of a conventional engine as the mass of the crankshaft, con-rods and flywheel would be greater than that of the cylinder heads and valve gear. Also a transfer box would be needed to redirect the crankshaft drive to the gearbox and front/rear differential[s] as appropriate. The inversion for an aircraft did not have these constraints and the improvement in forward and downward vision for the pilot of a single-engined fighter with an inverted "V" engine was a major advantage in combat, takeoff and landings.

I have always considered the BRM H16 Formula 1 3 litre engine of the late 1960's as a possible solution to the problem of building a compact high-power engine to maximise handling capabilities. The main problem with the engine was the complexity of its design and capabilities of the materials available to the engine component manufacturers at the time. Unfortunately, the H16 suffered initially from the success of the Australian Repco-Brabham V8 based on a modified GM B.O.P. [Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac] production alloy engine block and later the legendary Ford-Cosworth V8. I suspect the original experience with the H16 concept has deterred later designers from considering this configuration although the exhaust pipe configuration would not have been a great problem for a production car where ground clearance is not as critical as a Formula 1 racing car.

BRM H16 engine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_engine

http://www.motorsportsuniversity.com/2010/06/brm-h16-monster.html

Repco-Brabham V8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repco

Ford-Cosworth V8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth_DFV
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Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov
Grand Master
Username: soviet

Post Number: 360
Registered: 2-2013
Posted on Monday, 30 November, 2015 - 03:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

"Bentley Motors have gone part of the way - apparently the first line of the workshop manual for changing the spark plugs on their W12 engine reads:

1. First remove engine from car. "

David are you joking ?

I remember reading the Jaguar XJS workshop manual that stated that the engine had to be removed to change the timing chain slide, a mongrel of a design which was prone to head damage and destruction but I found a better source of information in Kirby's electronic book on the net that showed a way around it.

Spark plugs on the new cars can last 100,000 kilometres but still having to remove the engine and all the drama that comes with it to remove the spark plugs appears quite crazy and a bit down the line of crossing the Andies by Frog.

I never know about the BRM H16. What an incredible design and certainly not something you could get many spares for at Repco. How do they couple the two crankshafts though? I bet these things put out an outrageous wail down the straight flat out!
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 770
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Monday, 30 November, 2015 - 04:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The cranks are connected by gears. 2 flat 8s stacked.

Jumo engines were a flat 8 2 stroke diesel fitted upright to Junckers light bombers of the Luftwaffe. The bottom 4 cylinders were a supercharger for the top 4.

Upside down engines means high crankshaft and drive line. But one could take the drive from the camshaft instead.

One of the features of a good fleet car is ease of servicing. Spark plug access woukd be high on the list. Commer (Dodge) designed a cassette engine and gear box which slide out of the back complete with rear bumper. They must have a lot of confidence in their engines and gearboxes to make them quick change. The project failed of course. Who buys a van because the engine can be taken out quick.

The XJ6 engine is easy to work on in situ and also easy to remove. The bay was designed for the V12. Once the bonnet and rad are removed loads of room around the 6 cylinder engine. The sump will come off in situ but its quicker to just pop the engine out. The ease of working on them makes XJ6s popular in the classic car market.

I am almost 6ft and old and getting into the back of coupes is hard work. 4 doors much better.

I would love a 4 door 1959 befinned Cadillac rag top. Dark colour so the shut lines don't show out so much.

The Lincoln to me is a bit square and the dash is like Americana bit toned down a lot. Americana only works at full nstrength. A good example of Americana gone wrong is the Ford 105e Anglia especially the dash board. Where as the Cadillac is full strength and it works well.

In the UK convertibles can be a right pain in the neck literally if you have a drafty one. The rag top also doesn't last the life of the car like a steel roof does.

One the BMW RR convertibles there is a deck made from ash with black joints ( very nautical) under which is the roof.

Narrow the rear seat a bit. Remove parcel shelf structure. Fold the hood into the gap. Hinge the panel between the boot lid and rear screen base. Extend the panel so that it meets the back of the rear seat. Thus covering up the gap into which the hood is folded.

Crewe used a mercedes designed top on a car. The tops aren't interchangeable. Crewe designed their version. So check out Merc roofs.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.20.44
Posted on Sunday, 29 November, 2015 - 09:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,
i have two contemporary photographs of the wooden mock up of the inverted engine, but perceived complications led to the upright design.
This was about the time that R-R were on friendly terms, and had a Heinkel HE70 fitted with a Kestrel engine,as a test bed
This was also about the time that Frank Halford was redesigning the de havilland Gypsy engines for inverted installation. He added a gutter around the base of the cylinders to minimise oil loss and hydraulic-ing.
The R-R jet engines went to power the MIG 15, with devastating results, so much for socialist sucker uppers, and exports. I always wondered if the 40,000,000 was ever paid.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1823
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 30 November, 2015 - 07:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christopher,

I and many of our members would have an interest in seeing these photos if possible and I would be more than happy to put these up in the Forum - if you can scan and email the images to me, I can put them up in an Idler Chatter thread dedicated to the Merlin engine. Use the highest quality scan available as I can Photoshop the image for the Forum.

The email address for the images is drh14434AT[=@]yahoo.com.au - as a guest I am not certain if you can message me and attach images using the Moderator contact link on the top RHS of this page.

Vladimir - I am not joking re the W12 Bentley engine....... The various sounds of the H16 in full cry is in the second video at the end of the article in the second link above.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.49.226
Posted on Monday, 30 November, 2015 - 07:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David,
I have attempted a contact email to that address, message me on my email address with a clearer set of digits.
Chris.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1825
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 01 December, 2015 - 06:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christopher,

Have sent you an email as requested - my apologies for the difficulties with my coded address above; this was intended to stop automated email address collectors recording this address and flooding it with junk mail.

Regards David

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