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Christopher Williams
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 50.84.174.74
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 04:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello all,

I have an odd problem that has developed on my 64 Cloud III, #SFU 569. When I make a left hand turn, then engine will cut out, then as the car straightens up, the engine comes back to life. Recently, both carburettors have been rebuilt, the ignition was converted to electronic with a new coil. Up until now, the car has driven perfectly, and only happens on left turns. Right turns are ok, straight ahead driving, all is well.

So far, I have inspected the wiring at the distributor, check the coil connections and for any loose wiring that would be touching while moving, and I'm coming up empty handed. The problem will not occur when sitting still and turning the steering wheel.

Any ideas of where to begin my search/diagnostics?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Chris Williams

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bob Reynolds
Prolific User
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 243
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Try planning your journeys to avoid all left turns.

Sounds like fuel starvation to me. Check the float levels in the carburettor float chambers.
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 660
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What a strange fault.

Could it be one of the securing straps on the fuel tank has gone astray leaving the tank at an angle. As you turn left the fuel surges away from the petrol feed pipe. Or maybe a baffle has collapsed. Just a thought. Will be interesting to hear the resolution of this problem.

Regards

Geoff.
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.121.148
Posted on Thursday, 26 March, 2015 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Do right turns only?!. Seriously this is most unusual.

My first thought is fuel starvation due to fuel moving over due to centrifugal force but the car would misfire not cut out.

So examine the wiring again. Turn the coil round in its mounting.
Wire ignition direct to the battery to bypass any switc. Faults.
I Suspose something could be wrong with the ignition module
Try re fitting the points.

Engines with carbs that suddenly cut out with no misfires are ignition faults.

With the engine on idle give the wiring a good tug around.

Engine mountings. These can not cause this fault but when turning left the engine moves to the right. So with that in mind check the engine loom isn't damaged and rubbing somewhere
50 year old engine looms are not to be trusted
see my recent engine loom posting in general forum bit.

Note the engine loom is the wiring clipped to the engine not all the wiring in the engine compartment. I should imagine that the cloud would have a very simple loom. So any doubts just make a new one. Because originality is important use the same type of wiring which is available. AES web site has a range of wire that Will match the original. Plus terminals. Also Lucas the maker of the system will have the correct stuff. Plus the electronic wiring can be incorporated any modern looking plugs can be changed to something more period. The idea is that the electronic ignition looks original and period and doesn't show out.

This job is worth taking time to get the wiring just right. Because it tidys the engine up.
Plus its not expensive. A temporary loom made from household mains flex could be quickly made to check my theory. The main bit being the ignition circuit.

Also with engine on idle swing the ignition key around. If you have a large bunch of keys-----?
just an after thought.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Bob Reynolds
Prolific User
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 244
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2015 - 02:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The OP said that the engine cuts out and then comes back to life again. If the engine cuts out completely, then surely it wouldn't come back to life again when the road straightens out? You would need to restart it.

So, does it cut out completely, or just misfire and splutter? This is obviously significant.

That's a good point about the ignition keys. That has been known to cause problems when the switch becomes worn by a heavy bunch of keys swinging about.
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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.121.112
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2015 - 07:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good point about the engine not needing to be restarted.

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Christopher Williams
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 50.84.174.74
Posted on Friday, 27 March, 2015 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for all the replies and assistance. It really feels like an ignition cut out, because it just shuts down, no engine sound, no power steering through the rest of the left turn, then sputters back to life once straightening out. I do not have to turn the key for this to happen. I will recheck the floats. I also had someone advise to hook a light to the ignition coil positive to see if I am losing signal and run it into the cabin, and will give that a go as well and report my findings.

Thank you,
Chris Williams

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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.121.29
Posted on Saturday, 28 March, 2015 - 09:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

What a weird fault.
No power steerin means engine isn't turning. Maybe pump at slow rpm doesnt work.

The plot thickens.

What gear is the box in when this happens.

Engine braking?

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Christopher Williams
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Posted From: 50.84.174.74
Posted on Sunday, 29 March, 2015 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The gearbox is in 4th when it happens.

I do not feel a lurching like engine braking when it happens, just a smooth cut out. Then, when coming back to life, it does sputter/hesitate a bit, then I can accelerate again. This happens if I am accelerating, or coasting during the left hand turn.

During my testing, I did find a new symptom, when I started the engine cold, I heard a distinct whine from the power steering pump. I checked the fluid, and found while the level is correct, it was quite aerated. This cleared up in about a minute, and did not happen again. I am wondering if the two are related, but cannot understand why the fault would only happen when turning to the left.

I have not had a chance to check the floats as of yet. I did check the ignition feed and I am not losing power to the coil when the fault happens, so I think I can rule out a wire grounding out or the ignition switch itself being the culprit.

I will post when I remove this floats this weekend with what I find.

Chris Williams

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Bob UK
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 94.197.121.31
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 06:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That hesitant splutter.
This could be carbs.

Because carbs have a float bowl which is like a reservoir of petrol. Something in the float bowl may be blocking the feed to the jet when centrifugal force moves a bit of debris in the float chamber.

So take off the float bowl lids and floats for inspection.

If a blocked jet passageway is suspected remove dash pot and piston and blow air through the jet.

Dont mix carb parts up.
Check overflow pipes are in good condition and low enough.

These carbs are easy to remove and rebuild.

Sometimes little filters are fitted to the union at the carb bowl. These are brass mesh and are cleaned with air line.

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Bob Reynolds
Prolific User
Username: bobreynolds

Post Number: 246
Registered: 8-2012
Posted on Tuesday, 31 March, 2015 - 06:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It might be useful to do some tests by driving at different speeds whilst turning left. This would determine whether centrifugal force was to blame, or whether it was simply a case of one part touching or interfering with another.

Find an empty car park and keep driving round in circles!
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gordon le feuvre
Frequent User
Username: triumph

Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2012
Posted on Friday, 03 April, 2015 - 05:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

if a 4 speed car cuts out (Hydramatic) these have two gearbox pumps, one engine driven the other from output(propshaft) It will restart motor if stals from the output, That is why these can be tow started, but not towed without removing prop.
My thought is earth from engine to frame? As Bob uk says run separate wire/earth to test. For fuel, the car would have to be driven very hard.
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bob uk
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 92.40.249.112
Posted on Saturday, 04 April, 2015 - 07:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Of coarse it has a rear pump. Missed that one.

Thats that mystery solved.

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Christopher Williams
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Posted From: 50.84.174.74
Posted on Wednesday, 08 April, 2015 - 01:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

More news to report. I removed the float bowl lids and checked my needles/seats and float levels. The float levels were correct, but at the base of the hanger where it sits against the float bowl, I found it was slightly bent downwards and only allowing the needle to move slightly, maybe 1-2mm. After giving that a bit more room, the needle now drops 4-5mm. This has helped a bit with the cutting out problem, I now have more of a hesitation instead of an engine stall.
I have noticed the problem does seem to be worse when the engine is colder.

The problem does seem to be related to centrifugal force, as going around a turn very slowly, or a gentle curve in the road does not recreate the problem, but accelerating and making a full 90 degree or more turn will cause the stalling. Since messing with the floats has caused the problem to change characteristics, I feel I must have a fuel delivery problem, but I have yet to be able to test everything, and just wanted to post an update. I will post more as I have a chance to check through the fuel system.

Chris Williams

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David Lacey
Frequent User
Username: dlacey

Post Number: 54
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Thursday, 16 July, 2015 - 03:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I don't know if you ever solved this, I had exactly the same problem on TriumphTR4A. Cutting out on right turns and slowly worsened to cutting out on bumps in the road. After a year of rewiring ignition and fiddling with carbs it turned out to be a faulty coil. The coil worked when vertical but failed when moved horizontal...as you say some centrifugal effect on the oil in the coil I guess...
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Christopher Williams
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 50.84.174.74
Posted on Tuesday, 22 September, 2015 - 08:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David,

Unfortunately, no I haven't solved the problem. I have only learned to drive around it and take very wide, slow left turns. I have replaced the coil, as well as the other ignition components, and converted to an electronic ignition, but did so due to a higher RPM misfire before I ever had the car worthy for the road and knew about this particular problem. I have tested multiple ignition components, as well as wiring, and have not had any success in determining fault. I am feeling it is fuel related somehow, but I rebuilt the carburetors, then had them rechecked by someone with much more experience than myself, and they also found no problems with them. The car actually idles perfectly. It drives so smooth and quiet it's difficult to tell its running, and has even startled people when it has begun moving with no sound. The engine performance is dead on perfect, except for slow speed left turns, which is a big problem. When I do eventually find the solution, I will post the culprit.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Philip Sproston
Experienced User
Username: phil2025

Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, 22 September, 2015 - 05:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christopher Hot wire the motor using a separate battery,fuel pump and fuel tank to run motor not using the car wiriing.if it fails it must be the motor?
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Geoff Wootton
Grand Master
Username: dounraey

Post Number: 965
Registered: 5-2012
Posted on Wednesday, 23 September, 2015 - 01:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christopher,

Have you drained the fuel tank? I know this is a long shot, but given you have tried everything else maybe a bit of thinking outside the box is in order. Could it be that over the years you have collected water at the bottom of the fuel tank. The petrol will be floating on this. When you go round a corner some of the water laps over into the fuel pipe which is then pumped rapidly to the float chambers where it immediately sinks to the bottom and starves the engine of petrol for a few seconds. The internal architecture of the tank may explain why this only occurs on left turns.

Just a thought.

Geoff
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Brian Vogel
Grand Master
Username: guyslp

Post Number: 1678
Registered: 6-2009
Posted on Wednesday, 23 September, 2015 - 04:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff,

What you propose may be true, but is less likely if the car is located where ethanol is a standard additive to fuel.

In any case, before I'd resort to draining the tank I'd definitely try one of the products meant to allow water to be "reintegrated" into the fuel such that it doesn't preclude burning. There was a product many years ago called Dry Gas here in the US for that purpose and its main content was methanol, I think. It appears that it's still in production.

At least it's worth a shot.

Brian
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Mark Aldridge
Prolific User
Username: mark_aldridge

Post Number: 259
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 23 September, 2015 - 07:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Earlier this year I had to drain the Mulsanne fuel tank having filled up with dodgy petrol. When the fuel settled in cans, we syphoned off approx. 10 litres of water from 75 litres of fuel. The car ran but with poor hot starts and intermittent power loss. I also used a "dry gas" product in the tank (Wynns) as well as new filters.
Mark
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Jack Higginbotham
Experienced User
Username: jackh

Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 23 September, 2015 - 08:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Geoff
I have had a similar problem in the past, but not in the Silver Cloud. After chasing the problem for weeks, I doubled the battery ground and doubled engine ground strap. My problem was solved.
I have also had this problem with racing cars on hard high speed, sharp turns, which was resolved with modifying the baffles of a set of mikuni carbs, but I cannot see why a low speed turn would cut out.
Best regards
Jack
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 528
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Thursday, 24 September, 2015 - 07:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The pipe inside the tank that picks up the fuel, picks up the fuel from the very bottom of the tank. Otherwise the tank would have to have 4 gallon of petrol in it before the pumps can suck petrol. Lots of water would mean water going to the pump.

The petrol in the pick up pipe in the tank takes time to get to the carbs. By that time the corner is finished and thr car is going straight line.

The fault must be up the front somewhere for it to happen as soon as the car is cornered.

However you might as well drain the tank as part of routine maintenance.

In the tool kit should be a chrome thingy that fits the drain plug and the lug wrench. The adaptor.

Assuming that the car once ran ok then this fault suddenly happened. Check stuff that can suddenly go wrong.
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christopher carnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 213.122.124.16
Posted on Thursday, 24 September, 2015 - 05:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have you noticed if the steering box drop arm is fouling the petrol feed or HT wiring, that or the starting inhibitor switch bracket?

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Christopher Williams
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.203.83.58
Posted on Monday, 24 October, 2016 - 01:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I finally found it! Unfortunately, the way I found it was being left stuck in front of one of Dallas, Tx finer restaurants. When my wife and I got into the car that evening after dinner it had no electricity, and acted like it had a flat battery. Jumping power from another car caused no change. In some disgust, I slammed the driver door, and noticed the dash come to life! My years of working on British cars then kicked in, of course it's a faulty connection! So I began moving the cables front to back, all in front of the restaurant mind you, and found wiggling the cable at the starter caused the lights to flicker. I had my wife hold the key in the start position, I wiggled wires, and the engine roared to life, to actual applause from other patrons. I made it the couple of miles home and found the connection at the solenoid was loose internally, and was causing the positive connections to arc and eventually have almost no abilty to carry current. I decided to check out the starter motor itself as well and found it to be full of corrosion as well, so I installed a gear reduction unit from British Starters.com, and now I can make worry free left turns!

(Message approved by david_gore)
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richard george yeaman
Grand Master
Username: richyrich

Post Number: 652
Registered: 4-2012
Posted on Monday, 24 October, 2016 - 06:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christopher that is great news.

Richard.

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