| Author | Message | ||
     Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2012 |
Dears, My Bentley S2 1960 has a strong noise from the engine left side, it's like one piston hits metal, the hammering frequency goes up with the revs, there is a thick white smoke from the exhaust. I 've consulted here in Italy some mechanics who are giving different suggestions: Completely overhaul , with an estimate of 24k€, that I cannot afford Substitute the broken piston with a couple of used piston and its liner Substitute the engine with a used Silver Shadow one , which is easier to find and is almost the same but the number. I' wonder if already now I have the matching engine , my serial number Is B60BS and on top of the engine , I ve found number P1582 which I presume is the engine number. How can I check it? May some one of you help me in such a difficult decision? | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.84 |
The shadow engine is different and has spark plugs above the exhaust manifold. Provision for brake pumps 6750 cc and a torque converter. Take the plugs out which will show the damaged cylinder and do a compression check on the rest. Take note of the figures. Remove cylinder heads to reveal the damage. Remove engine and strip. Flying spares do liners pistons and rods used. Fitting a liner is a workshop job. I suspect that the liner has failed allowing water to enter the cylinder hence white smoke which is steam. Other causes are a dropped valve which has gone into a head water way. If the car has aircon de-pressurised system so condenser and radiator can be remove giving room to get engine out. Any concerns about crankshaft journals regrind the crank. The con rod from the damaged cylinder must be inspected and measured. Any doubt then fit a used one from flying spares. When removing engine firmly bolt chain to top of engine. Do not use slings. If the heads are removed first the head studs can be used for the chain. But the link must be at the bottom of the stud so use a tube to clamp the link. Lifting from the top of the stud may bend the studs. 1/2 ton floor crane can be hired. Before buying any bits strip the engine down. Take your time. Any problems post on this site because regardless of any difficulty this site will have a solution. I am afraid this job is not cheap or quick. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2012 |
Dears, here I'm, I had heads and sump removed, it was Piston A1, you can see it in the pictures. The liner is not broken but has got two scratches. The main bearing shows the bronze, look at the picture. Should I replace them ?. My mechanic says it's better. The piston has a bore of 103,3 mm, I think is 4 1/16 in; Piston shows the following number A1, AM413 4803, (on the B1 piston is written also M59 HEPLEX 13744 on the side which is missing in piston A1 because destroyed) Now my mechanic suggests that I have to show and ask to one engine machining company if they can bore (hone) the liner scratches within the tolerance to keep the same bore avoiding to replace the liner. If yes, we will replace the piston with rings and all bearings . Therefore we should need 8 main bearings 1 Heads gasket set 2 valve cover gaskets, if are not already included in the head gasket set 4 Intake manifolds gasket, if are not already included in the head gasket set 8 exhaust manifold gasket, if are not already included in the head gasket set 1 Sump gasket 1 piston 1 or full eight piston rings set. Other eventual parts… What do you think about? | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.91 |
The photos have not appeared. The main bearings should be Matt grey not bronze they are worn out. I recommend that the crank is reground and all new bearing shells fitted. In miscalleonous is a posting about checking oil pumps read it. The scratches in the bore. Without at least a photo then I can't say. However I suggest hone the bore, remove 1/2 a thou inches. If you getting a new piston ask for one a top end of tolerance. It is possible to get a piston that is say 2 thou over size and hone a bit more out. I have seen this done up to 5 thou. Any more and the extra capacity will put the engine out of balance. The head gasket set should include ALL the gaskets for the top end. A conversion set is the sump etc and converts the head set to a full set. original a head set was called decoke set but with modern oil and petrol that's no longer necessary. Please post photos of the crank journals, the bore and the main and big end bearings. To regrind a crank is not expensive this crank has the same number of journals as a 4 cylinder engine. It takes less than 2 hours to grind the crank. Remove and clean crank sludge traps. Refit AFTER the regrind because grinding swarf will get in the oil ways. Crankshaft balancing is not required and be suspicious about the expertise of engineers who insist with wild stories of engine blow ups. The crank was balanced correctly when made and regrinding a small weight off each journal will not alter the balance. Do not remove the bolted on balance weights if so fitted. This is going to cost less than €24000. Keep a running total so we can see. To check the heads fill the ports with paraffin or diesel and look in the combustion chamber in the head for signs of paraffin. No paraffin means that the valves are good and only need a quick grinding in. Do not skim heads. Again if an engine says this must be done even if the heads are flat then suspect his expertise. Also see miscellaneous for a posting about heads. Less than 3 months ago. Have fun polishing engine bits. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3130 Registered: 4-2003 |
If at this stage you do not remove all the liners and fit new liner seals it is a thoroughly wasted opportunity - unless the car is to be sold off to some sod ASAP. Given that the motor has apparently been at least lightly cooked you may well find another piston or two in need of replacement. Strongly recommended is to replace any scored liner as new ones are cheap. Honing the liners of these engines to remove scoring never gives a positive result. I have seen a dozen of these cookies in the last year, S2 through Arnage, mainly due to old or substitute thermostats, and the answer has always been similar. Liners out, new rings and a piston or two, new bigends and mains. That is all without removing the motor. If the crank is scored this is quite a biggie, Motor out. Probably $15k in raw parts and quite a bit more than that for labour. R. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3131 Registered: 4-2003 |
p.s. if the bearings are through to the bronze, either the car has covered 900,000km on really cheap oil, has been run run with no oil pressure for a while, has never had an oil or filter change, or has been cooking itself for quite some time. Bearing wear on the R-R V8 is unheard of unless something goes wrong. That is why the motor can be overhauled in-situ in almost every case. The exact same bigends, for example, are used on dainty 200HP S2s and 500-550HP Arnage Ts. If everything else collapses, the mains and bigends on these motors are intact unless something is badly awry. RT. | ||
| Jan Forrest Grand Master Username: got_one Post Number: 718 Registered: 1-2008 |
Bob UK: I trust that you've accidentally added an extra zero to your costing. For €24,000 you could buy a 'new' car and then break the old one for spares! | ||
| Geoff Wootton Grand Master Username: dounraey Post Number: 570 Registered: 5-2012 |
Richard Re: Liners out, new rings and a piston or two, new bigends and mains. That is all without removing the motor. A while ago I was reading Bill Coburn's article on replacing liners. The engine has to be heated to (as I recall) 150C. Can this be done with the engine in-situ? Geoff | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 3133 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jan, For €2,400 you will buy a piston, a set of spark plugs and a few gaskets. €24,000 is a realistic figure for a basic engine overhaul. And by the way we are all in Virtual Australia on this site. Lets quote $, and that means Australian dollars not Belize Dollars BLZ or any other funny stuff. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.72 |
I said 24k euros because the owner has been quoted 24k. It would be nice if it could be repaired for 2.4k but I think not. My "concern" is that the engineers doing the job don't make mistakes which cost money. The liners can be removed with engine in car but most likely the block will crack. So it must come out and be heated in an oven. Liners are honed when made the surface has no treatment so honing a small amount out makes no difference to reliability. However if the damage won't hone out without taken excessive amounts out then it's a new liner and risk. The cylinder is A1 so it's not a overheating problem caused by sludged up block. That's reserved for the rear cylinders. The con rod is RR and no substitutes. The piston is different. It's common practice to match pistons on dimensions rather than make of engine. The originals were most likely hepolite from associated engineering (British Leyland). The crank journals it is ok to polish the crank but if fitting new bearings undersize are the same price. So for an extra £100 regrind the crank then it must be right. In any case the shop isn't going to polish for nothing. Polishing without a crank grinder is not really possible. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.122.90 |
Out of interest I have checked parts prices on flying spares. It appears that undersize brgs are cheaper than std. £800 for mains ends and thrust. The cheaper price covers the cost of the re-grind. Gaskets £500. Liner seals extra. Piston genuine is £400. With rings. A ring set 8 pistons 4 rings each 32 in total. £440. Liner £180 each. That's £3000. Plus a radiator check and overhaul as necessary. The piston is genuine so a dimensional match might save money. The rest are pattern parts. Pattern parts are often made by the oem. Pistons brg and gaskets often are oem in different boxes. Companies like hepolite glacier metal and payven. Don't make crap parts For the piston try Piston Rings and components Ltd of Parkstone Poole Dorset UK. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Frequent User Username: soviet Post Number: 97 Registered: 2-2013 |
You are wrong Richard, we should calculate this caper using North Korean Won as a compass point for the simple reason that the lad up there with the bad haircut probably needs some love and support. Well I had to say something because its almost 4 in the morning and I am up reading the forum because I am perpetually insomniacal and everything was going ok until I read your quip about Beleze Dollars. It caused me to burst out in hysterical laughter splattering my laptop with coffee. I don't know why some wags on the forum think I am funny when you can crack me up with 2 words. The engine defineately needs to be yanked and repaired properly. | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2012 |
Dears, the engine is now out because we have got one liner broken. It'so going to be completely dismantled at the machinery work shop. We have found gearbox oil between the flywheel and the gearbox. Is it normal or the gearbox is leaking somehow? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2013 |
Grassetto, it sound like the front seal on the gearbox is worn out and leaking. Before you wash the inside of the gearbox bell housing you need to have a good look at it to see whether the front seal is leaking. I would also be having a look at the hydraulic coupling to see if its got a groove on it which you may be able to fix with a speedy sleeve. Also, before you start extracting the liners from the engine you are going to have to heat the engine block up or run the risk of severely damaging the block, like braking piece of aluminium out of it. If you do that then you will be up for hugh amounts of money to get the car back on the road. There is much good information in this forum on removing the liners. | ||
| Jonas TRACHSEL Frequent User Username: jonas_trachsel Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2005 |
Maybe this is a silly question, but never-the-less here it goes: Why do the old liners have to be extracted and cannot simply be machined/bored out? The outside dimensions of the liners should be known, I think, so that by staying away a few thou from these dimensions as a safety margin it should be possible to "collapse" the remaining paper-thin rest. What are the reasons this is not the standard method to get the old liners safely out? After all this is what is done for engines without wet liners such as the Mk VI/R-Type engines. | ||
| Steven Spencer New User Username: sspencer Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2013 |
I planned to use new liners so I ran several beads of weld on the inside of the liners which solves heating the whole block. Most of the liners cracked during this process and came out quite easily. You caps down under may have different methods? Never seen any one machine them out. Let me know how that turns out if you try it. I used rolls liners and custom matched Aris Pistons. Seams Rolls is out of the lower clearance matched sets of pistons and sleeves. Aris is out of Ca.,USA. They have the design for the cloud piston and have been supplying them for about 8 years. The pistons will run you $200 AD each. | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2013 |
Steven that's a very cool idea. I use the same method on bearing cups. Did you use electric or mig to run the welds and did you run many weld beads in the liners from top to bottom. You can see an image of the liner puller on ebay but its been sold. Try typing in "rolls Royce cylinder liner puller for sale" in google. It should come up. | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2012 |
Dear, the machinery work shop has tried to boil the engine to get the liners out, no way they were still seized. Therefore they decided to machine out them, now that they are collapsed it is clear that it was impossible to get out them differently without breaking the block. I' è pictures which show how the liner were seized because the calcar in the water used instead of right coolant. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.255 |
Mig or stick will do the more weld the more the shrink. Machining out is a safe and easy way, liners collapse before tool gets close to aluminum. Sounds like the machine shop knows what's what. So this engine will be fine. Once the liners are done rest is easy and quick. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2012 |
Dear, the machinery work shop has tried to boil the engine to get the liners out, no way they were still seized. Therefore they decided to machine out them, now that they are collapsed it is clear that it was impossible to get out them differently without breaking the block. I' è pictures which show how the liner were seized because the calcar in the water used instead of right coolant. | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2012 |
Sorry for double posting, I'm try ing to ad pictures     | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2012 |
Dears, now I need engine parts: standard, pistons with rings, valves, liners, bearings, bushes, gaskets, oil and water pumps. Do you have any suggestion to buy parts properly? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 130 Registered: 2-2013 |
Grassetto, try Flying Spares in the UK, just google Flying Spares and follow the leads. Their website is excellent and all prices are mentioned. There are other RR/B parts dealers in the UK so also google Rolls Royce parts for sale and they should come up. Sorry to add to your financial woe but do consider having the top tank of the radiator removed and the radiator rodded because I think with that much corrosion in the block its likely the radiator has some blockage. I can't imagine what its like to drive a Cloud in Italy but I am certain you get noticed. Also read Bobs advice to me under the thread Camargue on a shoe string re the block cylinder head flatness matter. Best of Luck | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.7 |
Flying spares are commissioning aftermarket pistons. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| christopher carnley Unregistered guest Posted From: 86.166.61.62 |
Have you considered acquiring a later engine in sound condition, say from a Shadow 2? You will find in the present case that the bottom sealing bridge is so badly corroded that there will be no effective liner seal from either the cooling water, or oil. There will be a great deal of money wasted. There are a number of good late engines in dismantling yards, in the UK. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Grassetto Eugenio Experienced User Username: grassetto Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2012 |
Shadow engines are different, what is the bottom sealing bridge? | ||
| Vladimir Ivanovich Kirillov Prolific User Username: soviet Post Number: 145 Registered: 2-2013 |
Grassetto, I have no idea what Christopher means either but perhaps his is talking of a sealing ridge not bridge. In any case I would just ask your engineer that machined the liners out to look at the engine block surface where the orings go onto the bottom area of the liners. If your block is badly corroded there, then I see no reason why the corroded areas cannot be welded up using a mig or tig welder and remachined back to normal. As for buying a later engine I would forget that because your gearbox is not going to match up its stud pattern with a Shadow 2 engine being that Clouds only came with the 4 speed hydramatic gear boxes and Silver Shadows all had Turbo 400 3 speed boxes made under licence from General Motors. Also, unless you are superman and have xray vision, determining whether a second hand engine is "sound" is the risky business of trusting the salesman on his word. Italy has excellent mechanics and engineers. I would proceed with your own engine because you know what is getting done. | ||
| Bob UK Unregistered guest Posted From: 94.197.120.53 |
I say carry on with this block. Machining the liners out isI the safest way. Magnetic crack detection is quick and cheap over to Dave Gore to explain how it works. Matching numbers are important. Once liners fitted 8 hours to assemble. The Shadow two or one engine will not fit. The heads are very different. The crank pulley. The brake pumps. Also RR when designing a model may move mounting points for ancillary equipment. I think so far so good and the engine is in good hands. No matter where you go in the world one can find good engineers. We have a common language, engineering. The Italians have made some smashing engines. I tuned a 2 litre DOHC, which was very quick to a family car. 140bhp Rear wheels. It pulled hard from low revs then picked up fast. Addictively fast. A RR V8 is not complicated and apart from the crank pulley requires no special tools that a machine shop won't have. The crank pulley tool is easy to make for a machine shop. When rebuilding engines problems do arise such the shims are not right. This can be frustrating. An easy way is to buy too thick and surface grind down using a magnet chuck on a surface grinder which all machine shops have. Luck. I have often been lucky to find the original shims are right. So try them first. The high quality of the parts makes assembly easier. (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 1555 Registered: 4-2003 |
"Magnetic crack detection is quick and cheap over to Dave Gore to explain how it works." Yes - I started using a Magnaflux machine for testing step-turn test pieces for non-metallic inclusions when I was a trainee metallurgist in the mid-1960's. The smell of kerosine [paraffin for those north of the equator] always reminds me of doing these tests as it was the carrier for the iron powder used to reveal inclusions and cracks during the testing process and the kerosine would penetrate your skin during manual handling of the test pieces undergoing inspection after they were magnetised and sprayed with the fluid mixture. It would take hours for the smell to dissipate no matter how often you washed your hands afterwards so your presence was not appreciated at meal times until the smell had gone -also not a good thing for your social life if you wanted to meet your girlfriend after work. More specific information can be found on the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_particle_inspection Note this process ONLY works on ferro-magnetic materials [i.e. those that a permanent magnet will stick to] and non-magnetic materials [e.g. Aluminium alloys and austenitic stainless steels] cannot be successfully magnetic particle tested - the use of dye penetrants and ultrasonic testing solves this problem. | ||
| Randy Roberson Grand Master Username: wascator Post Number: 396 Registered: 5-2009 |
bravo so far: don't know how I missed this very interesting topic for so long. An update would be great; it's like the electricity went off just before we find out who dun it. |
