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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Wednesday, 03 August, 2011 - 03:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Good morning,
I have on my Silver Cloud3 a heavy rťfrigeration unit in the boot.
I need to fill on gaz R134a but I don't Know the quantity and pressure.
Could you help me ? I didn't find on the workshop manual.
thank you
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David Hughes
Experienced User
Username: wedcar

Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, 06 August, 2011 - 05:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hello Francois
Normally these systems are serviced here in Australia by mechanics licensed to supply and recover the refrigerant from the system.
Normally the service involves evacuating the system with a vacuum pump, checking for leaks, and then charging with the correct quantity of refrigerant (R134a)and lubricant. On page 27 of 35 in the Cloud 3 parts list, 6 lbs (pounds) of refrigerant is advised for these systems.
Trust that helps.
Regards
David
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Monday, 26 September, 2011 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

hello david
sorry for my absence.
you mean I fill with 6 lbs of refrigerant therefore about 2.7 Kg ?
(thank you for the link on the parts list)
I believe that the low pressure is 2Bar and High pressure is between 8 to 16 Bar.
Regards
Francois
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Bill Payne
Frequent User
Username: wimpy

Post Number: 65
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, 26 September, 2011 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Francois: Please check this: http://au.rrforums.net/cgi-bin/forum/show.pl?17/11339
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 33
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Tuesday, 27 September, 2011 - 01:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I do not understand this link.: http://au.rrforums.net/cgi-bin/forum/show.pl?17/11339
this the link to this discussion.
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Bill Payne
Frequent User
Username: wimpy

Post Number: 66
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 27 September, 2011 - 04:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I apologize, I thought this would take you to another discussion involving a link: This is the best trouble shooting guide I know of, especially since you have gauges, since this is for limousines, you can ignore the dual system disclaimers: http://www.manexcorp.com/images/limo_gauge.pdf

You will need to convert from PSI to bar: http://www.centauro-owners.com/articles/psibar.html
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Bill Payne
Frequent User
Username: wimpy

Post Number: 67
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, 27 September, 2011 - 05:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You might also find some helpful info here: http://www.denlorstools.com/autoblog/2009/04/adding-freon-to-car-ac-gauge-readings-explained/
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Tuesday, 27 September, 2011 - 06:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

thanks you Bill for this link
I ansterstand better the Air conditioning .
I will check all the system.

Just one more question When the workshop gives 6 lbs. Is that a weight of the Gaz ,not a pressure?

Francois
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Bill Payne
Frequent User
Username: wimpy

Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, 28 September, 2011 - 01:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

In the USA, R134 comes in 12 or 16 ounce cans and 6 pounds would require 8 12 oz cans or 6 16 ounce cans. I'm not sure if the factory was referring to US units of weight or Troy pounds.
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 249
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 28 September, 2011 - 06:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It's unlikely that Crewe would have quoted in Troy Ounces as that measurement is usually reserved for weighing precious metals such as gold, silver and platinum.

However it is poor practice to just buy cans of the refrigerant and recharge the system yourself. As has been said before, you won't have access to the correct machinery required to accomplish the task properly. An A/C specialist will vacuum the system clean of all the old refigerant and/or any moisture that may have entered it and repressurize it with nitrogen and a UV florescent dye to check for leaks. Only then will he vacuum it again and refill with the correct grade and amount along with a compatible lubricant and more UV flourescent dye.

In the UK the best place for this is KwikFit (but not for anything else!) as they will not charge for this job if the system does not exhibit a significant degree of cooling during the first month or so. IIRC they have a flat charge for virtually all cars around the £50-£60 mark.

(Message edited by got_one on 28 September 2011)
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Wednesday, 28 September, 2011 - 08:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I confirm it is with a correct machinery and autorized man but I leave in France and nobody know the correct weigh of gaz on this car with the air conditioning on the boot.

I hope a correct charge and there is no leak on my car

francois
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Jan Forrest
Prolific User
Username: got_one

Post Number: 250
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, 28 September, 2011 - 08:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

bon chance, mon ami
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2420
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 28 September, 2011 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Itís highly illegal to charge the system yourself in Australia, so I suggest that this is the wrong forum for the topic.

As such, the required mass of refrigerant should not concern us.

In any case, the charge mass is a guide only. The charge is set finally by inlet and outlet pressures at the compressor with the compressor running at full load, and then only by a registered refrigeration technician.

It is 4 years since I had a full refrigeration service on our T-Series. That means evacuate, sweep, purge, new receiver/drier and oil, and a new charge with R134a. The cost was only about $220 at the best outfit in our city. I had it checked and topped up this week for $25 by the same people, so going around buying cans of R134a would be of no benefit even if you could find them. The system needed a 150g topup in my case. It is allowed for a technician to top the system up with R134a if it still has operational pressure and needs no more than 250g to restore it after no less than 2 years. Otherwise, the technician is obliged to do a full service,

This all dates back to recognising the evils of R12 and the necessity to be sure that the system is in good order before topping up.
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Omar M. Shams
Prolific User
Username: omar

Post Number: 203
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, 29 September, 2011 - 03:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Dear Francois,
Don't get hung up on weight.Let that float and look at the two pressures as your only guideline. your suction pressure should be around 25 psig and your discharge no more than 250 psig. If you start with a fully evacuated system with a new reciever drier and the correct quantity of oil, then introduce gas until you reach a discharge pressure of 250 psig with the system running at max blower speed. That will result in an optimum AC system.
Bon chance.

Omar
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Thursday, 29 September, 2011 - 05:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

thanks Omar and I will try your advise after filling my A/C

for Richard I agree with you but the technician man who work with automatic machinery (it is a garage of MICHELIN in France and approved garage which recycles the old r134 ) need to enter the right quantity of gaz r134.
not the pressure

The pressure is just a control after filling the system
In my area there is no society working in air conditioning
So I need exactly the quantity of Gaz R134

If I have not the confirmation of weight of r134. I will buy the r12a deepcool gaz with all pressure gauges to fill myself my A/C with your advise of pressure .

Francois
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 798
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 29 September, 2011 - 09:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I would measure pressures as well.

I don't think you will find a definitive weight for your car. Also if any components, or hoses have been changed in length or bore size, the charge weight will need adjusting.

And remember that R12 charge weights are different to 134a in any case. So you would need about 10% less with R123a.
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Richard Treacy
Grand Master
Username: richard_treacy

Post Number: 2421
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, 29 September, 2011 - 06:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Paul and Omar say it all. Omar and I live in countries where aircon is a critical feature on 99% of all cars, and R134a is compulsory here, so our refrigeration mechanics know their stuff. I am amazed that the French equivalen technicians are baulking at this, Then again, I do remember the woeful French aircons on early CitroŽn CXs (the local dealers eventally routinely ripped them out and fitted suitable systems to later CXs before delivery !).
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Paul Yorke
Grand Master
Username: paul_yorke

Post Number: 801
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, 29 September, 2011 - 07:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I can understand their hesitation in dealing with such a strange and 'expensive' car.

The main problem these days is that 'air con technicians' just have to plug the machine into the car, type in the charge weight off the sticker on the bonnet slam panel. Press start and walk away.

The machines then:
evacuates,
waits and monitors the vacuum for any change.
Fill with nitrogen.
Waits and monitors changes.
If all Ok
evacuates.
Adds gas and oil to the figure on the sticker.
Job Done!

No Sticker no Chargee!!

When you say you need to fill with 134a do you mean recharge , , , or are you changing to R134a from R12. If changing all the old oil will need flushing out and the compressor changing. Recovered R12 is allowed in some places much better gas for car air con (but not so good for our Antipodean friends) .

I think the dryer unit is probably a major 'tank' affair so it would probably be best to find a way to fit a modern type dryer like a Shadow one.

I can't remember what Suction and output pressures are 'normal' for a York compressor. Has the Aircon been working recently? If it hasn't, it may be worth while going the whole hog and fitting a more efficient Sandon Compressor instead.
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Friday, 30 September, 2011 - 01:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

it is a recharge from r134
You are right ,the technician proceed exactly as your description. and in France It is a big problem with old car A/C I am not alone.
Thank you for your help
francois
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Monday, 03 October, 2011 - 04:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have some good news .
I find a technician who works in the cold industry.
I can to fill my car only with the pressure HP and BP.
thanks for your help and I will say you the result.
Francois
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Francois Charlier
Experienced User
Username: vonplum

Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2011
Posted on Saturday, 15 October, 2011 - 08:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

With a good technician . We fill the A/C only with pressure gauge , 2.7 Kg (6 lbs) gaz R413a and the air contionig works perfect.
We will adjust on the next summer .
Thank you very much for your help

Francois

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