| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1646 Registered: 4-2003 |
Having fitted a new radiator not long ago (the car has barely been driven, just run every three months, since awaiting recommissioning), a NATRA from Phillip Radiators in Canberra, I decided to overhaul the water pump and to fit a new thermostat and hoses. This is B174UM, 1954 R-Type, a car we have owned since 1968. There was nothing wrong with the pump or thermostat, I overhauled the pump 15 years ago and the thermostat was 10 years old, but an overhaul should add reliability for a while longer. Having read Norman Geeson's warnings about reusing the pulley flange, I decided to make a more robust method of retaining it. A reused flange can come loose, Norman warns, and the fan will charge through the radiator and do untold damage. I was unable to find a new flange or have one made in a hurry, and was also concerned that even a new one could come loose. The solution I chose was to have a hole drilled through the flange and the new pump spindle, and to fit a needle pin. That is, a hollow hardened pin with a longitudinal slot, the diameter being 6mm to spring-fit into a 5mm hole. That pin goes straight through the flange and spindle as a positive lock, and the pulley will ensure that, even if it came loose for some bizarre reason, the pin cannot move. Below is the result. The pump spindle is incrediblz hard, and needs a special 10 degree carbide drill even to start a hole. I had it done today by Premier Metal Work in Fyshwick, Canberra, for just $130. That is a great outfit, and will weld cracked or corroded cylinder heads and cast iron blocks if needed. The man had great interest in our cars, especially as I drove our T-Series to pick up the job. I would suggest that anyone overhauling one of these pumps consider this simple concept, as the pin will only shear with 12 foot-tonnes of torque. Enough, but I await Normans reaction. RT. Puller for the flange, a really good professional one which will even remove those awkward R-Type centre steering and track rod ball joints:  Pump, old flange, holes in new spindle and flange, needle pin:  | ||
| KC Saayman Frequent User Username: kc_saayman Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Richard Does this apply to early Mk VI cars as well? Regards KC | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1648 Registered: 4-2003 |
KC, Hi, Absolutely. It applies to all postwar cars without a viscous coupling. It applies especially to all MkVI, R-Type, SD, SW and S-Series cars. I ran my R-Type yesterday. As they say, Bloody Marvellous. Kindest regards, Richard. | ||
| KC Saayman Frequent User Username: kc_saayman Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thank you Richard. I will soon be removing the water pump on my Mk VI to replace the gasket because I have a slow coolant leak that seems to originate from behind the pump. I suspect the gasket because the leak stops the moment the engine warms up. Anyway, I was thinking of having the pump overhauled as a matter of course while it is out of the car, so this information came at just the right time  Regards KC | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1656 Registered: 4-2003 |
That is a pleasure, KC. For anyone removing the water pump, be assured that it is a remarkably quick and easy job. It should take no more than 15 minutes. Don't forget the Nitrile gloves otherwise you may need to clean your hands afterwards.. With a narrow spanner, secure the manifold heater adaptor on the outlet at the right hand side of the pump, then undo the pipe retaining union with another spanner. That prevents the manifold feed pipe from twisting to destruction. Most garages don't know this essential step and ruin the inlet manifold water feed pipe. Undo the car heater union on the left side of the pump the same way. Undo the main and bypass hoses, the fan belt, and the four bolts which secure the fan and pulley onto the water pump drive flange. Remove the four BSF nuts at the lower half of the pump and the water pump is out. The radiator need not be touched, and the core is protected from damage by its cross-brace. RT. B174UM 1954 R-Type Bentley | ||
| KC Saayman Frequent User Username: kc_saayman Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think I will probably remove the radiator and have it professionally cleaned or re-cored if that is required. It works well, but it does look a bit tired and has a few weeps. We need the car for a Bentley run in May, so I will set aside June for this work. I tent to take long on these jobs because I am fanatical about cleaning everything, so a one hour job turns into a two day job  | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1658 Registered: 4-2003 |
KC, good stuff. New authentic radiator cores are available only from New Zealand. The originals, as from NZ, have heaps of spare capacity. Regardless, I went for a NATRA modern parallel-finnedl core from Adelaide, South Australia, with three times the cooling effectiveness. It was sold to me for just AUD$800 by Phillip Radiators in Canberra, fully fitted to my original tanks. That was the first replacement on my car. It was only due to stone damage. The system, by the way, proved to be absolutely crud and sludge free after all these years, thanks always to using the proper coolant with 40% conc non-organic inhibited ethylene glycol coolant. That was this week when I fixed the water pump as good measure. RT. B174UM. | ||
| Mark Taxis Experienced User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2007 |
Richard When my MK 6 Special is stationary the temeperature always rises, but as this is a special I think the problem is that the mechanical fan is very small due to the lowered radiator, This means there is very little airflow over the radiator core when stationary. There is an electrical fan fitted and this pulls the temperature down quite efficiently i was thinking of checking out the water pump, can you advise me where you purchased the parts for the pump Thanks Mark | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 815 Registered: 9-2004 |
Rt,To use the flange again with the proceedure you have advised may turn into a disaster after a short time. First to use a two legged puller on any driven flange is a recipe for distortion! This will in turn leave the fan no other option than to run out of balance etc, however good it may look assembled. This will soon lead to movement within the pump shaft and flange,relying on the hardened hollow drive pin will not help. These pins will crack staying in postion but allowing the whole assembly to cork screw through the radiator. warning. Useing a used flange is not recommended. I would not do this type of bodge, better wait till new one arrives. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1661 Registered: 4-2003 |
No comment is thinkable on the last posting. | ||
| Laurie Fox Frequent User Username: laurie_fox Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2004 |
Richard What were the internals of the water pump like when it was stripped down. Things like corrosion in puller holes in the rotor, wear in the rotor slots driving the carbon sealing disk, wear on the face of the carbon seal, and wear on the cast iron face where the carbon seal touches the metal. Did you need to true up the cast iron face and, if you did, what sort of finish/flatness did you achieve. Presumably the carbon disk and the rubber seal behind it were replaced with new parts. Replacements for the rubber seal don't seem to be of very good quality - a lot of flash at various points. All in all there seems to be the need for a substantial amount of knowledge and skill in reconditioning the water pump internals properly. Were the cast iron sealing faces lapped flat when the pumps were originally made? My pump is a MK VI pump with the carbon seal on the rotor. Later pumps (S1?) are different. Do the later pumps tend to have a longer working life? Regards Laurie | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 1662 Registered: 4-2003 |
Laurie, This is a car with over 400,000 miles. Being an Australian export R-Type, it has the same earlier pump as a MkVI. There is no corrosion or pitting in the pump or impeller whatsoever, and the engine coolant galleries are completely corrosion and crud free as far as can be seen by removing the water pump. I have overhauled the pump a few times already as precautions, and there has been no change over the decades. The two BA puller threads in the impeller are fine. I have a few spare carbon gland seals (discs), and all are either new or good. I used a very slightly worn one in reverse so that the surface is as new. The cast iron gland sealing face is perfetly flat, and as it was when I first and last had it machined 200,000 miles ago. The new composite/rubber boot for the carbon gland, bought in February, seems perfect. The flange took just under a tonne to press on, so it was safe. However, drilling and using a pin is simply an absolute insurance against slippage. Why Crewe never did this in the first place is a mystery. RT. | ||
| Laurie Fox Frequent User Username: laurie_fox Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2004 |
Richard Since you had no corrosion you did not have any of the problems that I have had and overcome. Both of the pumps I have had (Pump No 1 on engine No 1 and Pump No 2 on engine No 2) had seen service before I got them and were not as clean as yours. The corrosion was substantial. I reconditioned both with very good results but it was not easy. It will be interesting to hear how other people get on with corrosion in the innards. Regards Laurie | ||
| Norman Geeson Unregistered guest Posted From: 81.98.141.23 |
Richard I have always considered the retention of the water pump drive flanges somewhat of a poor design. R-R themselves lost a few radiators and fans when they were testing the pre-production Cloud series. A back up pinning procedure would have saved the day. I think as long as you have some sensible residue pressure when pressing the drive flange into position, you would be successful in pinning the flange to the shaft. The danger would likely occur if there was no interference fit at all, and the flange was just pinned. If that happended the joint would be subject to fretting such as that experienced in quill shaft type drives. I would certainly prefer to see one pinned rather than spot welded, which I occasionally come across. Even allowing for R-R prices the current cost of these flanges needs to be seen to be believed. I can understand why owners now consider re-using a flange, and I think it will become more common. The last one I purchased cost £110 sterling. I see Laurie is interested in the corrosion aspect. I wonder if the very early 4.25 ltr pumps that are fitted with a different rotor are more subject to corrosion. In particular if the early rotor design (and casing) corrodes under the action of cavitation. R-R certainly had cavitation troubles even with very late pumps and this is recorded in the achives. These later pumps had a problem with the inlet track that promoted cavitation in the eye of the rotor.I have not read any reports on the early rotors, such as Laurie's but I would guess it is a factor in the corrosion aspect. My own R type pump is circa 20 years old and it does not seem to have been affected by corrosion. I have removed it on about 4 occasions in that period. I should add, if it is considered an issue, that the engine and frame is very well earth bonded. As an aside, I should be visiting Australia in Sept/Oct. If you are in Canberra at that time I might take a look at what the condition of the car is, that is attached to that water pump.<smile> Unfortunatley as I shall be away a few days with my R type, I will not be able to respond for a week or so. (Message approved by david_gore) |
