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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 547
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Sunday, 01 October, 2023 - 03:38:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It begins...
My block does not have the centre plate, but a core plug, and I'm in the process of locating the tool to get that out.
I don't know why the core plug is in there rather then the plate ?
I've contacted Kelly at British Tool Works to see if one of these work:

https://www.britishtoolworks.com/product-page/screw-in-freeze-plug-pin-socket

Flying spares has also has these for rent, as well as some other options, see here:

https://www.flyingspares.com/loan-of-core-plug-spanner-rh617loan.html

When I did the engine some 25 years ago now, I was told that the water jacket was OK and to leave it alone, but now when I look at it, I could have spent time cleaning the bottom out.
It does not over heat, and what is in there now has always been in there, I've looked after it well since the rebuild.
I did remove all the core plates, including the rear one and replaced all the screws with stainless steal at the time of the rebuild in case I had to get them off, but it was not necessary to remove the one at the rear at this time, there's nothing there to clean.

I'll have to contact Flying Spares to see if that core plug tool in the second link is the correct size.

About rust dissolvers:

Looking at this one; and there are many on the market like that do the same thing, they claim it only attacks the rust _ not sure how that works, but I've had bad experiences with acid rust removers.
Products like Evapo-Rust claim it will keep on eating away at the rust until it reaches good metal if left long enough and one keeps changing the solution out.
That would imply that even long solidified silt will be eaten away, but I have my doubts about that, I'm going to find out.
This will be a huge job as I want to remove the brass coolant tube, and as you know, this will require the removal of the rad, and everyone here knows what that means.
Taking the front of the car apart will probably be necessary to get the core plug out anyway.

https://www.tenaquip.com/product/crc-canada-evapo-rust-super-safe-rust-remover-pail-er019-ah143?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI78qCyObSgQMVjRatBh2BAwPXEAQYCCABEgJR6PD_BwE





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marktaxis
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 1.156.188.39
Posted on Tuesday, 03 October, 2023 - 08:34:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I used this product, seemed to work well

https://liquidintelligence.com.au/

(Message approved by david_gore)

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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 548
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2023 - 07:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks Mark,
That's a waterless coolant, we have something similar here too, but I'm more interested in cleaning out the debris on the bottom of the block.

(EDIT: I guess you meant this product Mark);

https://liquidintelligence.com.au/products/organic-rust-remover#buy

I keep finding particles of it in the system; here are some photos the way it sits now.

The head is off where I can get a tool in there to break it up, after which I plan on rigging up the garden hose and flushing out the bulk of the debris.

The car doesn't overheat per-say, but I think it will benefit from a good descaling _ that would make the heat transfer more efficient.

The distance between the bores are open and one can see the join in the casting between the bores _ the back end is clear except for the muck at the bottom of the block.

The middle of the block has enough mud where the coolant is puddled and will not run out the blocks drain hole _ I intend to fix this.

All of this was never cleaned out at the machine shop, they did not want to boil the block because that would have destroyed the cam bearings _ they didn't have the tool to line bore it.

They were done not that long ago, they were measured and found well with on spec, the same with the lifters.

I should have cleaned the block out by hand at the time, but it never occurred to me.

After 20 years, the head was yet another bitch to get off, and like last time, one stud was holding it in place _ I will use a thread sealant this time around for the next guy; in another 20 years, I will be 78, if I last that long.


Bores 6 and 5 with the casting in between.


Coolant puddled in the middle of the block.






Bores 1 and 2

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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 549
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2023 - 10:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

About the plug on the side of the block, the link to Flying Spares is for the V8, and when I contacted them, they said "none of them will work on the straight six"
They're Kelly Opfar's tools incidentally. (British Tool Works)
Flying Spares does not have a proper fitting pin wrench to RE9016, the number for the plug according to the service bulletin on pages BB-65 and BB-65a.

https://rrtechnical.info/mkvi/r/bull/4.pdf

I'm working with Kelly to produce the correct size pin wrench.

I plan on the Evapo-Rust soak before an attempt to remove the plug.

This is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-MC_ZEXQbw
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 551
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Tuesday, 10 October, 2023 - 08:29:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is the camera I used to take the photo's:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0C3H1N8VQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

I'm not going to worry about the debris seen in the photos, the Evapo-Rust will take of that.
The car needs to be pointing up hill for things to run out at the rear, and that's not possible as its up on blocks at this point.
A huge amount of sediment was trapped in the front of the block, unfortunately there is no easy way to get the garden hose in there, other then to remove the front casting plug.
Over-all it's as clean as it's going to get as well as I can get in there.



Looking down from the front of the engine.



Rear of block.



Front of block.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 553
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Wednesday, 11 October, 2023 - 05:01:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

https://kda132.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Ravages-of-Time.pdf

This area on my block was filled right up with rust particles and what looked like brown dirt.
It's a nasty area because it's well below the blocks drain hole, and as I mentioned earlier the car has to be parked on a hill for this to drain out.

I can't tell if it just dead-ends here or if coolant is allowed to flow around bore #1, Norman would hopefully know, if I can get the brass water tube out, I may be able to tell and even get in there to clean it better.

From what looks like an improvement when RR went to the 4.5 litre engine, doesn't at this point.
In order to accommodate the larger bores, the rear bores were siamesed together and the front bore was moved closer to the outside of the block creating this very narrow area which made it very difficult to remove the sand after casting.

Even if the sand was properly removed, this very tight area would be prone to the accumulation of rust and silt.
Why didn't RR make the block longer, or maybe they did, but not long enough.
The cavity on mine appears much larger then the photos shown here.


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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 554
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Wednesday, 11 October, 2023 - 05:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

And the response from Evapo-Rust after I asked them if putting a block heater in there is a good idea to augment the chelation process:

"Thank you for choosing CRC Products. A block heater is a wonderful idea. Temp is a critical factor in the performance of Evapo-Rust. 65 is minimum, but the warmer you can get it, the more effective it is and the faster it works. 90-100 would be ideal. Please let us know if you have any questions".
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 76
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Wednesday, 11 October, 2023 - 06:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

So your looking to devolve then flush.

Looking at ol mates videos muriatic acid then krud cutter or even CLR are better than Evapo-Rust. Good on the you tuber for doing the experiment as it does point out a few differences.

Would a diluted muriatic acid be of worth, then lots of water to neutralise. You could fill the block completely and cheaply and not have to wait for ages. All done and dusted on a nice sunny day. Wet the floor underneath for any spillages so it doesn't spot clean.

Also wondering if an air hose blower can be fitted to a garden hose. Where the long nose of a blower could be poked down a sleeve and create the pressure and jet like motion to help move the tighter sections. Or maybe two, one air one water.

I do like your camera, reckon I that would be great to check chassis internals and have at look my block also.
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Jeff Martin
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Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 555
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Wednesday, 11 October, 2023 - 10:51:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I already have the 13 Litre pail of Evapo-Rust; and I don't mind waiting.
Muriatic acid at any strength is a big thumbs down, yeah; it would work, but I found from personal experience that it can never be totally neutralized, things always rust over no matter how much baking soda and water is used.
I can prevent that with WD-40, but the gas-off rusts everything in sight _ ask me how I know this.

I use the stuff outside far away from everything, and that's it _ can't get the car out of the garage _ too cold and wet anyway.
I could see the stuff destroying the deck, I found to matter what steps are taken, it gets into everything.

The block heater thing should work really well, another tuber said he heated the block up and it was very effective.
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Bill Vatter
Experienced User
Username: bill_vatter

Post Number: 162
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 18 October, 2023 - 09:32:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have cleaned several blocks but I did not use any chemicals. Some blocks will have very hard deposits, essentially scale mixed with rust that is very like rock. For that I used chisels, cut-off hacksaw blades, and other selected tools to chip away at the scale. After chipping awhile, I took the block outside and used a pressure washer to clear out whatever had become loose. I was careful not to let the water jet impinge on the brass water gallery, which would not withstand that. The worst one took a couple of weeks working 3-4 hours each day to get it cleaned up.

Getting around back of the cylinders is difficult, and more so for 4-1/2 litre blocks than 4-1/4 ones. The 4-1/2 blocks are closed between cylinders 1&2, 2&3, 4&5 and 5&6. However, that isn't your very early block.

Access behind is possible through the ports at the back of the tappet chamber. Those will require a pin spanner like Kelly has for sale and Flying Spares has for rent.

Other blocks had softer deposits. Hard or soft deposits depends on water hardness. If the car lived where the water was hard or naturally soft, you got hard or soft deposits. Soft deposits are easy to remove. You just wash then away with the pressure washer.

Your block looks really good. There isn't much hard scale on the cylinders. Scale will always plate out on the hottest places. How much is at the bottom isn't very critical. The bottoms of the cylinders aren't heated much if at all by the combustion, so if there is a layer of crud at the bottom, it won't affect cooling. You do, however need to have a flow path to the block drain. Lots of engines have considerable build-up of crud at the bottom of the water jacket. The way to tell is to open the drain. If water flows out freely, all is well. If not, you need to work whatever into the drain to open up a flow path, and cleaning out the water jackets is also needed. Some blocks will need to have the drain valve and adapter removed, and then work a coat hanger into the hole in the block to drain old coolant. Some engines haven't had a coolant change in a VERY long time. Those will also be the ones with lots of crud in there.
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Bill Vatter
Experienced User
Username: bill_vatter

Post Number: 163
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 18 October, 2023 - 09:50:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

If you hot tank the block with caustic soda, that will indeed dissolve the camshaft bearings and anything aluminum on the block. Early blocks like yours have aluminum core plugs, So if you do that, you will need a complete set of new core plugs and also new camshaft bearings. It is one way to get your core plugs out. Later blocks have steel core plugs.

It is not necessary to use the camshaft bearings made specifically for these engines. You get camshaft bearings with the same OD, which I forget, but it is in the literature somewhere. Then you root through the catalogs to find some bearings with that shell outside diameter. Exact width of the bearings isn't important. You can stack up the bearings for extra width, and if a bearing hangs out the end of the block hole for it, that doesn't matter, as long as it doesn't interfere with something in there like a cam lobe.

You also don't need to line bore the bearings. The factory didn't do that, they used a reamer. A reamer with appropriate tackle to keep it on center is all that is needed. I bought a shell reamer and mandrel of the appropriate size and made the rest of the tackle to reamer the bearings. I will loan that equipment and provide instructions if you want. It does a very good job. Norman inspected the results and said it was "very good."
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Bill Vatter
Experienced User
Username: bill_vatter

Post Number: 164
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 18 October, 2023 - 10:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Oh wait!!!!

Those last two photos of the gear case don't look really good after all. That huge hole between the gear case and the water jacket!!! What happened there??? You are going to have to find a way to close up that gaping hole, if it can even be done. That block is probably toast. Time to start looking for a new block.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 564
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Wednesday, 18 October, 2023 - 18:27:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That's not my block, that's from a post of Norman's blog.
The link to that article is in that post, sorry for the confusion.

I was asking is that a dead end area, or does the coolant flow around the front of cylinder #1 ?
I can't tell, it's not possible to get my camera in there.
I thought Norman could answer that question since that was a block he did _ I think it was his.

The engine is still in the car and the idea was to clean it as much as possible, with out having to dismantle it.

I would like to get the brass water conduit out of the block and modify the holes, but that may not work out as I can't get at the back.
I do remember taking it out some 25 years ago when the engine was done, it slid right out.
If I try to force it out from the front with hooks, I would end up destroying it, but I think Flying Spares has a new one.
When I use Evapo-Rust product, it may remove enough of the surface corrosion so it would slide out, I'll find out.
I just want it as clean as possible and the Evapo-Rust product kills the rust with out eating at the good iron _ so it says.

The block heater I installed will ramp the chelation process.
I'll post some photo's later the way the car sits and how I installed the block heater.

Thanks for the loan of the ream tool, I appreciate that.
I did buy some camshaft bearing shells, but the machinist didn't want to tackle the job anyway as it was well with in spec.
He also added some exhaust valve seats as there was no material left from over-grinding.
After 21,000 miles the whole things is doing well.

I could never get the thing to idle where it would just sit there to balance a coin on it, everything I do helps, but not cure it.
The only thing left is the camshaft; I'll check the lobes, and it's timing, another big job to get that out, but I've gone this far.

There's a cam grinder on the Main Land (Vancouver Canada B.C.) that has done these before, much less expensive then a new one at around 1900.00
Jim Walters has used them.
The shop also has the ability to add material and harden the surface again if need be.

When I did the engine I was in my early 30's, there was no internet, and even if there was, I had no computer, all I had was a reprint of the RR manual from the RROC.
I timed the camshaft by applying compressed air to the #1 cylinder and waited for the sound to change when the valve started to open, I didn't know at the time about spinning the push-rod back and forth and don't think the manual said anything about that.
I would have to look again to be sure.
I'm going over things now and correcting mistakes that I made back then.

If the weather is around 20c in the spring where it can be warm and humid, the car runs very well.
When I drove to a meet the engine was well wormed up and later when I started it again for judging the heat sink warmed up the manifold and it did idle very well; nice even exhaust notes and the engine stood very still.
It doesn't like very hot days either, it can idle sort of rough too.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 566
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Thursday, 19 October, 2023 - 10:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Block with Evapo-Rust in it with block heater.



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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 81
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Saturday, 21 October, 2023 - 06:02:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Its like waiting for cake to bake......and then finding if it turned out perfect.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 568
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Saturday, 21 October, 2023 - 06:42:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP



Yeah, isn't it.

My hope too is that the Epavo-Rust will get in around the threads of that side plug and make the removal much easier.
The 600 watt block heater warmed it enough where I could not keep my hand on it, and that should also aid in the extraction of that plug.

It would make a very interesting experiment to get a block that's very choked with rust and silt to where it has to be chiseled out of there.
The silt is made of iron rust, aluminum oxide, some brass oxide and I'm sure what ever is present in the recipe of iron the block is made from.

In theory the rust particles should be eaten away allowing the solid blocks of silt to disintegrate as the rust is turned into this black sandy like substance.
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 82
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Sunday, 22 October, 2023 - 08:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

You got me curious. My block still awaiting completion was caustic cleaned in 2011. Looks like success but still some detailing to do. Its on a motor stand and rotates, so hopefully that will make things easier.

from down the jackets top of block







between cylinder 3-4



Cover plate at end of motor.





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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 570
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Sunday, 22 October, 2023 - 09:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Have a read of this, in case you already haven't done so.
"Type D Gallery Assembly" and "Later Developments"

It talks about lengthening the holes in the gallery to distribute the coolant better.
Norman's figures in the before and after table are impressive.

If you plan on doing something with the gallery, now's the time.

https://kda132.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Cylinder-Blocks.pdf

"About Caustic Soda & Acid Based Solutions"

I found with any of these acid based products that neutralizing them is very difficult, I believe this to be so because no matter how much the block is rinsed with water, and/or water and baking soda, there are always traces left behind of the acid product left in the pores of the iron.
I've cleaned parts outside in a bucket using straight Muriatic acid, and even after days of soaking in a solution of baking soda and water, and rinsing, things still can turn yellow and get a rusty film on them.
Only after spraying things down with WD40, and then getting rid of the WD40 with an oil based engine degreaser and more rinsing, do the items stop rusting over.
At this point I can paint them.

If that were my engine I would use something like Evapo-Rust or some such product that neutralizes any traces of acid and rust where it turns the iron black.

I did drain my block to check things out and there is this black film on everything, some of it kind of slimy yellow, I can't get in there and scrub it so I'm still reading up on how to remove that.
So far I've come across that I should leave the product in there longer, and that's where I'm at now.
It just may rinse away with paint thinner or WD40, I don't know yet.
There's a technician that I have been in contact with at Evapo-Rust looking into this.
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Jeff Martin
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Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 571
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Sunday, 22 October, 2023 - 10:23:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here's a photo of the new water gallery for the 4.5 litre engine.
If that's an actual photo it shows the holes at the end are smaller then the front.
I find this odd as this goes against what Norman did to his gallery.
They claim that this is improved and that makes no sense to me.

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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 83
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Monday, 23 October, 2023 - 06:56:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Feeling blessed the 4.9 has the smaller pulley and larger fan.

I think that looks right though, but without measuring who really knows. Page 26 or Normans report for modified C - D type indicates hole 5 - 6 are smaller than 4 - 5, which are smaller than 1-2.

The annoying thing is hole 1 is smaller on the modified galley opposed to the OE C and D. Not sure I could rats to buy a new galley just for one hole, when the other 5 are simply made larger. Guess one could braze hole 1 a tick smaller.

Maybe try the wreckers for a galley out of cooked 4.5. Or 4.9 if the mount is the same as my pic on the rear cover plate.
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 98
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Wednesday, 15 November, 2023 - 06:30:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jeff, been looking into electroplating and came across this scientist that experiments with multiple common acids for rust removal.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bkdej_z1HI&t=49s

He also has another clip mixing hydrochloric - muriatic acid 50% to clean bolts.

One thing I have noticed over all the clips I've watched is no one spends more time neutralising acid than just a rinse in water, distilled or not. Where did you get the concern using acid in a block is hard to neutralise.
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Jeff Martin
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Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 580
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Wednesday, 15 November, 2023 - 09:03:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Maybe if it was cut by 50% or even just 10% acid, it wouldn't be a problem.
I would clean parts in acid at 100% strength, and even though I would leave it for a day in baking soda water, it would always get this film of rust on it here and there, or at the very least, it would get a yellow film on it.
I would have to rinse it really well and put it in paint thinner to keep things from rusting.

If I did the block at 10%, I would certainly neutralize it, and I would spray thing down with WD40 after rinsing with plain water, or pour paint thinner in the block to disperse any water and acid solution.

What I've learned from all of this, with any acid, is that there always seems to be some left behind in the pores of the iron or steel no matter how much its been rinsed and/or neutralized.
The question is what is the acceptable amount where it won't eat the aluminum head ?

The porous iron block makes it hard to neutralize, so it would seem.

I put a core plug just in vinegar for a few days after it had been treated with that Evapo-Rust stuff, and ate away the black iron oxide left behind to produce a result that looked like it had been in Muriatic acid.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 4240
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 15 November, 2023 - 09:08:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Here I go again........

Rust removal from ferrous items using Hydrochloric acid [commonly called Muriatic acid] blends is fraught with problems if anything other than ferrous components are present due to the strong possibility of electrochemical[galvanic] accelerated and/or other unanticipated corrosion occurs.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and it is my personal advice that acid cleaning should only be done on items that have been completely disassembled and the materials properly identified beforehand as to their compatibility with hydrochloric acid solutions.

Neutralisation of acid residues remaining after rust removal using acid is not a simple "wash and forget" rinse - the remaining acid residues need to be properly neutralised with an appropriate alkaline neutralising solution and then thoroughly rinsed several times to ensure all acid and neutralising residues are removed.


Remember 'first cost is not always end cost" in situations like this as is "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"!!!

.
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 99
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2023 - 04:25:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Crikey Jeff, 100% is a little excited.

Good point there Dave, I am talking about a stripped block out if the car.

Here is the bolt link, 2.5 hours in 50/50 hydrochloric I'd say at 30% strength. Neutralises with water then wd40.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8Kv9CeJqnc&t=80s

Im no scientist
But if rust needs oxygen to grow, and there is minute elements of oxygen in water than one would figure a + - of rust growth and acid neutralisation exists. A rust inhibiter in coolant would keep it on the - side. So after cleaning and pouring substantial WD40 into the block, that should hold it to perhaps a coolant is introduced.

Perhaps bi yearly coolant changing there after is as good as it going to get.

Dave, what has been your experience with block and neutralising.
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2023 - 04:36:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Perhaps something else to consider, hydrochloric acid only attacks rust. Sulphuric acid cleans grime.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 582
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2023 - 04:59:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This was copied from Google:

Hydrochloric acid is a purer and more toxic form of muriatic acid. Hydrochloric acid has a normal pH of 1.5 to 3.5, while muriatic acid has a pH of about 1 to 2. Muriatic acid is also less potent because it's diluted with water (usually around 31.5 percent HCl) and contains impurities like iron.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 4241
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2023 - 12:55:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Quote: "This was copied from Google" IMHO this an immediate reason for going elsewhere for proper advice and medical treatment information.

"Hydrochloric acid is a purer and more toxic form of muriatic acid. Hydrochloric acid has a normal pH of 1.5 to 3.5, while muriatic acid has a pH of about 1 to 2. Muriatic acid is also less potent because it's diluted with water (usually around 31.5 percent HCl) and contains impurities like iron."


The above advice must not be taken seriously for the reasons below:

1. Hydrochloric and Muriatic Acid is one and the same; concentration of any acid in solution is given by a pH reading ranging from 1 to 7, readings of pH 7 and higher are classified as alkaline.

2. Anyone considering becoming an expert on Hydrochloric/Muriatic Acid chemistry should familiarise themselves with the following documents.

Hydrochloric acid skin burns can be deep, painful and slow-healing:

https://www.fao.org/fileadmin/user_upload/jecfa_additives/docs/Monograph1/Additive-228.pdf

Prompt treatment of Hydrochloric acid burns is critical and requires both quick neutralisation and dilution of the acid residues:

https://www.healthline.com/health/hydrochloric-acid-on-skin#hydrochloric-acid-burn-treatment

Always wear acid-resistant gloves and protective clothing and eye ware/face shields when handling handling and/or using Hydrochloric acid regardless of concentration. If acid of any concentration comes in contact with your body and/or clothing during handling; immediately remove the clothing and flush the affected areas with copious amounts of clean fresh water and seek medical assistance immediately.

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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 101
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2023 - 19:39:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

One if these Dave

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Jeff Martin
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Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 583
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Friday, 17 November, 2023 - 03:48:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP



I think the guys homemade Minion costume went wrong !
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Friday, 17 November, 2023 - 06:14:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

WHAT...that's Me......I spent a lot of time making that to service the pools acid doser thank you.

This article talks about pure/neutral/demineralised water at PH7 to neutralise acids. Or can add a little bi carb soda if extra keen.

https://www.allthescience.org/how-do-i-neutralize-sulfuric-acid.htm
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 4242
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, 17 November, 2023 - 09:18:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jason,

Pure water CANNOT neutralise an acid or alkali - it only dilutes the solution to make it less aggressive.

The acid itself can only be neutralised by an appropriate amount of suitable alkali in either liquid or solid forms being added to the liquid acid using accepted safe handling practice by someone clad in appropriate protective clothing and face shields..

I still vividly remember the prickling feel of hydrochloric acid fumes on my exposed skin when adjacent to the Hydrochloric Acid pickling tanks at Comsteel Waratah NSW used to descale hot rolled carbon and alloy steel bar stock before further processing.

It was standard practice for plant workers rostered on to the pickle plant to turn up for work unshaven to minimise this problem who would then shave and shower before knocking off to go home at the end of the shift. As a staff metallurgist with quality control responsibilities, I did not have this privilege and always carried a wet face towel with me whenever I had to visit the pickle tanks when surface defects on bar stock became apparent during acid descaling and a decision had to be made on future processing of the bar stock.

OH&S requirements in the early 1970's were pretty basic in those days.............

.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 585
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Friday, 17 November, 2023 - 10:53:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Like lime in its powdered form or mixed with water ?
The same type of lime one would add to mortar or your lawn ?

Or Lactic acid at 88% ?
It's used in beer and wine making.
Many other things too.
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 103
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Saturday, 18 November, 2023 - 06:04:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David, just trying to find a way in this world.

I had Australia's largest chemical company and perhaps most popular paint company for years advise to acid etch floors with hydrochloric acid and clean off with a water blaster. That changed to dry grind, then eventually the Rep suggested get into Roofs. Floors are too hard. I could go on with other gems of advice.

I recall as a 16 Yo apprentice, sent up a 38ft ladder with 5" grinder in hand with no guard. No ear, eye, hearing, fall protection to grind lead paint on an asbestos sheet (fibro) gable end on a house. More than one time and most houses had 2 to 3 or them. They are small, sloping, and slippery once you cover them in dust. But it's also was no Western Front. The guy who owned the business was not a tradie, close as he got to a paint brush was too had it to you. That was in the early 80s.

The internet is no different to a book, a brochure, a business, or someone selling something, the advise can be right, wrong, don't care, or just noise.

Multple, no, virtually every clip on the net talks about water neutralising acid. I presume it takes a OPH or close to back to 7 or as close to. 7 being considered the balance between acid and alkaline. The mention of baking soda 8.5ph according to the net was an option. So it seems something higher than 7ph would neutralise acids if that is what you are saying. Its a public forum here Dave, not a court case. No one is suggesting do all this in your pluggers, shots and singlet; just trying to work out how to clean a block.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 4244
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Saturday, 18 November, 2023 - 08:54:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jason,

Unfortunately in my industrial career, I saw many gruesome accidents due to inadequate workplace safety, personal negligence and inattention.

I have two small molten steel burns on my neck from a full liquid metal ladle bottom failure whilst being lifted out of the ladle pit after tapping of a 20 ton electric arc furnace in the late 1960's. There was a pool of water in the bottom of the pit which turned to steam as the molten metal dropped into it and then exploded sending molten steel everywhere.

The pit foreman saw a red ring around the base of the ladle as it began to be lifted out, yelled out "run" and we did as the ladle bottom broke away and 20 tons of molten metal at a temperature exceeding 1600deg Celsius dropped onto the water in the pit which immediately turned to high pressure steam which possibly also dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen before exploding throwing red hot liquid and solid metal far and wide through the adjacent plant.

I was wearing full protective hot metal asbestos clothing [coat, gloves, spats and neck cover], safety hat, safety eye shield and boots; I had already taken off dropping the optical pyrometer I was using and began running up the centre of the melt shop. The crane driver lifting the ladle was in a open cab and unable to move the crane; he dived under the control panel for protection and the floor crew went for the nearest cover they could find.

Two pieces of red hot metal flung into the air by the explosion found their way onto the side of my neck between my asbestos coat collar and safety hat rear neck flap leaving two burn scars which are still there today.

Fortunately, no-one was killed or seriously injured - since then OH&S laws have made hot liquid metal processing and handling far less dangerous than it was when I started work in late 1965.

P.S. Your mention of using baking soda after acid cleaning floors is a classic instance of acid neutralisation with an alkali practice.
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Jason Watson
Experienced User
Username: crikeydawn

Post Number: 104
Registered: 07-2023
Posted on Sunday, 19 November, 2023 - 07:17:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Yes its a fair thing OH&S and unions have made their mark on workplace safety and safety in general. The idea of a business spending money on staff safety to enhance profits opposed to upper management bonuses is a sound business decision most would think. Sadly it had to be legislated do so. Still, I feel as a small business owner the pendulum has swung too far the other way. If you ask "is it safe" the answer is always no no matter how much effort, training, and money is chucked at it. The buck or compensation always stops with me.

I don't see however a paper trail or responsibility to a noose around the governments neck in regard to driving the car to a workplace. The most dangerous activity one does in their life, multiple times a day, sometimes with family. Workplace deaths are dwarfed by the road toll which is dwarfed by suicide rates, which is dwarfed by alcohol related injuries and deaths. Chuck in domestic violence, illegal or prescription drug abuse from metal illnesses all possibly caused or in part by work and work pressures like status, rate, hours, equality and its a tragic mess. The boss however may be liable to pay.

All BS I can hear, but I can tell you driving a truck which takes up the road on the crap roads we have, could be seen as someone not taking responsibility. Sure I could change my income, but that saying Australia stops if trucks stop should resonate in the chain of responsibility with someone providing the work space. I guess that is if the roads have anything to do with work.

Anyway, I have to agree a bit of PPE and a clear path to the hose with the nozzle close to the tap, or a few buckets of water near by is good practice when dealing with acid. For those who don't know, always add the acid to the water, NOT the other way round.

In my flooring case the company with all the product, money, image, and knowhow didn't suggest to use baking soda also know as bi-carb soda to neutralise acid. It was some random science site I found on the web derived from this discussion. So thanks Dave, appreciated. I'm now feeling like I have clear path to flush my block to the best of my options before its rebuild.
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Jeff Martin
Frequent User
Username: jeff_r_1

Post Number: 588
Registered: 07-2018
Posted on Sunday, 19 November, 2023 - 08:20:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Jason, post what you end up flushing the block with and how well it works.

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