| Author | Message | ||
     Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2004 |
This from my mate Rob Hurren, any clues? Bentley has total loss of water circulation. Radiator OK. Hot at top tank and icy cold at the bottom. Flow through the radiator is OK. Flow from top hose to water heater outlet is OK. Flow from inlet to block below water pump to anywhere is a trickle. Looks like a pull down of the whole watering department around the pump is the go | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 538 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Martin, If my brain cells are functioning normally; I seem to recall Bill Coburn discussing water-passage cleaning in some detail either on this forum or in "Tee-One Topics". I recall that Bill used a "witches brew" of degunking chemicals to clean the block however I would not hazard a guess as to what they were. A search of this site using keywords such as "chemical", "waterway", "block", "flushing" might reveal all otherwise we will have to wait for Bill to reveal the location of his method. | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi David, This car has had overheating problems for a while now, I tried the same method on it that worked for my MK VI, namely a combination of compressed air and water introduced with the tap open at the back of the block. On mine it worked a treat, with a large amount of muck coming out the back leaving a pile of rust on the floor under the tap. I also installed an in line filter on the top hose to collect any further muck. I check the filter after every drive, and am still removing stuff. I tried this on Rob's R type, and could not get anything out of the back tap, totally blocked. I did not try blowing water and compressed air back up the tap, this was to be my next attempt. In the meantime it looks like I have dislodged something that has totally blocked the passageway from the water pump. | ||
| Ashley James Experienced User Username: ashley_james Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2005 |
I'd remove the tap and the short tube that goes between it and the block, then rather than blow everything away from the area. I'd remove the thermostat and put a hose into the housing whilst simultaneously chiseling into the crud. With any luck you'll get water flowing through again. Trouble is that the block has to be very full of crud before it causes overheating so it may be necessary to strip the engine, especially as the rear two cylinders are likely to be very worn as a result of all this. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 576 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well Martin when I rebuilt the engine on my Dawn SDB94 I eyed the stalagmites and tites of rust in the cooling chambers but was assured that this was 'normal' Car finally rebuilt and off we went. Stop in traffic and the gauge hit the stops. The radiator core was new and of course the block had been blown through every accessable oriface and soaked in garage hot cleaning baths for a week. So the whole bloody thing came out again and was stripped to the last nut and bolt. I managed to get 'fairy' lights into the block and with little bits of mirror discovered that there was little room for coolant in that casting. My approach was to use a dilute solution of hydrochloric acid for cleaning. I started by making up a plate to cover the ends of the block and the side round plates. I screwed a standard plumbers elbow and a bit of water pipe into the rear drain hole. The end of the pipe was above the top of the block and allowed me to drain the acid by simply swinging the pipe over and letting it drain. I liberally greased the top of the block, the exhaust valve seals and of course by beautifully bored and honed full length liners. I stood the block on carpenters stands on an area that I could easily hose down etc. The block was also levelled lengthways and crossways. I mixed the acid into hot water and poured it in via a funnel. Standing back I expected instant fizz and bubbling but no I finished up leaving the whole thing overnight topping it up so the the liquid level was slightly higher than the top of the block by virtue of the little dams of grease around all the entry holes. Next morning I tried to drain the block but it was blocked solid with debris. There were shards of rust and scale half as big as a slice of toast trying to get out of the 1" BSP hole! There was lots of gouging and breaking up with a screw driver and eventually all the acid was drained. I immediately flushed the block with fresh water for some time then bunged up the drain and filled it with several bottles of household cloudy ammonia which was the most convenient alkali I could think of at the time. After some hours I drained and flushed that and let the block dry. More lights inside and bits of mirror and the difference was astounding. I suspect the block was cleaner than new. There were still a few concretions of rust in odd places some of which responded to a sharp screwdriver up the derriere. One area still a bit dirty was the under surface of the top of the block where there were still sizeable lumps hanging. So I did the whole thing again next morning leaving it to soak for the day. I kept the acid levels down so that there was just the odd bubble appearing at the various greasy holes. This time the interior was spotless. My final rinse was with detergent which halted any residual effect of the acid and I then put a quantity of some anti corrosive muck used in boilers which I rolled around inside the casting until all was coated. I have forgotten what that stuff was but there will be something better now for sure. That car is still going never overheats and is not problem to the owner - 30 years later!!!! Finally if you are serious about fixing the problem you have to bite the bullet. Flushing in out back or forward has about as much effect as rinsing your mouth with mouth wash expecting to get rid of deep seated caries! | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Ashley, Tried the tap, it ain't budging without divine intervention! Hi Bill, There is a bigger story here. I am very happy with my MK VI, runs very well. Rob's R Type has done a hell of a lot of miles, and it has been a struggle keeping it going as a wedding car. The bigger plan was to rebuild the spare engine B503S, and put a totally rebuilt engine into service, whilst rebuilding the current engine, therefore keeping the car on the road. Rob bought the 2 cars from Phil Sproston quite a few years ago, hence the second body and chassis that are for sale. In the meantime a fellow who ran a Wraith WSG26 blew his motor up, and Rob lent him the spare motor to get him out of trouble and keep the wraith on the road for weddings. Well, in the interim this fellow went bust, and the car was given to another fellow in turn for settling a debt. The correct engine for the wraith is missing, and the fellow who now "owns" WSG26 is trying to sell it. What a mess! I doubt we will recover the engine B503S out of the Wraith, but if anyone is looking to purchase this wraith, buyer beware! In the meantime we will keep struggling to keep the R Type's wheels turning, as to completely dissassemble the car to repair it correctly is beyond us both physically and financially. It is running on it's original bores and pistons, as far as we know, and uses a bit of oil, little puffs of smoke between gear changes, (valve stem seals), but all in all with probably close to 300,000 miles under it's belt, it has not let Rob down. In a perfect world...... | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 577 Registered: 4-2003 |
Martin/ I do understand. If any commercial enterprise ran these cars as they should be they would be broke very quickly. In a way people like us shouldn't be allowed near working cars - its a bit like seeing a stray dog and wanting to take it home. They certainly have a hold over us. We have a Lexus LX470 4WD - a beautiful vehicle and in the handbook are detailed instructions on how to destroy it when you have no further use for the vehicle. Could you imagine that in the back of your Bentley's handbook? There is a gentleman in the Territory who has the stray dog problem with post war Rovers. He has some 60 odd cars - none of them go I imagine but presumably he can't bear to see them go under the hammer. Perhaps there is a full time job for a counsellor here. | ||
| Bill Vatter Frequent User Username: bill_vatter Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2004 |
Bill, Your acid treatment is interesting. Can you tell us what effect the acid had on the brass water distribution gallery? Also, what kind of acid did you use? | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Bill, We are Bentley enthusiasts first, wedding car operators second. But, you have to draw a line somewhere. I could still spend more money on my Freestone & Webb, making it concours, but.... I want to go historic racing this year with my Austin 7, but no $$$, hence my advert to sell the bentley. I would love to hold onto it, but you can't have everything. I have a bottle of Permatex 15 minute radiator cleaner, will be trying this next. Anybody tried this stuff? Bottle says it won't harm the water pump seals. Says ideal for alloy heads. 64% Sulphamic Acid. | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2004 |
By the way, I am changing from using 50% glycol mix in the Bentley to the Penrite Classic Cooler Inhibitor. It is clear, not glycol based, and therefore has a higher ability to transfer heat. A 1 litre bottle treats 8 litres. Will report back on the results. My next outing in the Bentley is on the 7th of Jan, should be nice and warm! | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 539 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi Martin, Thanks Bill for your treatment details - I was confident it was Hydrochloric Acid but didn't want to open my mouth and put my foot in it without confirmation. Dilute hot Hydrochloric Acid [no more than 10%] is a common scale removing treatment for rusty steel components however the resulting clean surface is very prone to rusting immediately afterwards unless it is treated with a suitable rust-preventative [the use of boiler water conditioner by Bill is interesting - if it was a Tannic Acid based product; it would have been very effective with no residual effects that I am aware of]. My experience with Sulfamic Acid based cleaners is that they work but are not really effective on heavy dense corrosion deposits - the hot hydrochloric acid is far more effective as the turbulence from the chemical reaction helps dislodge the adherent material. If Bill had been able to warm the block, his first treatment probably would have removed all the deposits obviating the second treatment. [A word of warning though, the acid fumes from the hot acid solution coming in contact with a recently shaved face/open wounds will cause considerable irritation and discomfort; for this reason, we always shaved after work and not beforehand if we knew we had to work near the acid pickle tanks in the steelworks during our shift.] With regard to Bill Vatter's enquiry, the type of brass used is important; it can be either 60/40 two phase or 70/30 single phase alloy. The two phase alloy is usually prone to de-zincification corrosion attack in specific environments [do not have access to suitable references to advise what these are however I do know it is a common problem in plumbing fittings used for domestic water supply over extended periods] whereas the single phase alloy does not have this problem. To be certain, the best thing is to get some scrap brass and immerse it overnight in the acid solution and check it for chemical attack before applying the mix to your engine block. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 939 Registered: 4-2003 |
Just a comment: descaling properly is indeed strictly a strip-absolutely-everything operation alright. When I had my R-Type motor's full length liners fitted, Repco at Braddon, Canberra, did the job. They dunked the bare block in the acid tank, then treated the bare metal with a neutraliser before machining. I left an innocuous-looking blanking plate attached, the one near the dipstick, thinking it was made from steel. It went missing, and dragging the acid tank revealed nothing. Oh well, now I have a replica in its place as it is of aluminium. It dissolved away in the tank. The time before, it was done by Berco, also in Canberra, in a brine tank: brine is quite useless for scale, but still they had to drag the tank to find bits which fell off. I am not alone in this, as I have heard many stories of tank dragging after leaving bits attached to the block. RT. ps concerning overheating, please read Norman Geesons notes, especially on the brass distribution tube and the failures which may occur at its front end. You will find most on Ashley's site at: http://www.kda132.com/ | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Richard, Ever tried treating rust in a tub of molasses? Haven't tried myself but I have heard good reports from others, takes a while though. | ||
| Bill Coburn Moderator Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 578 Registered: 4-2003 |
For Bill. I had forgotten the brass distributor which was wedged solid before the tratment. After treatment, it simply pulled out with my fingers. It was not damaged and the flange at the front was quite intact. Martin, That is interesting. I have heard many times of the efficacy of molasses it is cheap and you can buy it from cattle feed places by the drum. Perhaps David could explain the reaction - it beats me. Maybe, thinned down you could simply fill the system intact and loosen stuff up although probably everything would block then! Years ago a friend brought me very nice mini moke that would overheat if you looked at it. The fellow he bought it from used to drain the engine every time he washed the car and put in fresh water!!!! With the new owner's knowledge I went mad. Drained the whole system and filled it with dilute Hydrochloric and ran the engine for about an hour. The muck that came out was like porridge. I flushed and repeated the process and the result was almost clean.. Neutralised the stuff and filled with proper coolant. God knows what I dissolved in the process but 7 years later it was still running. I wouldn't recommend it other than as a last resort! | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi guys, After reading Norm's excellent paper I think Rob has no other option but to do a full tear down. My 1925 Dodge runs water only, and stays cool even in 35 degrees, can run all day without even a whimper. Has never had any inhibitor or coolant in it. The block was weathered by Dodge for 12 months before it was machined. Why do the pommie cars have all these problems when the black iron just keeps on keeping on? | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just as a follow up, I tried the Sulpharmic acid in the block, not much came out, a bit milky, but no lumps. Replaced the glycol based coolant with the Penrite Classic inhibitor, (2 litres), and did a run of 40 miles. The in line filter on the top hose was half blocked with muck! Not sure if this was the acid or the inhibitor that shifted the rust. Will run the car again next weekend and see how much is collected in the filter. Marty | ||
| rich cwik New User Username: lotusrich Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
There is a chemical flush that is available ( but quite hard to find) here in the states called Nalco 2015-this is a fabulous, two part, powder flush, that worked miracles on my everyday driver R-type.The car originally ran quite hot, but at one of our national meets, a chap from the Phantom II Society told me about this stuff. It comes as two, one gallon plastic jugs, one full of flush, the other full of neutralizer, and you mix it something on the order of eight cups of flush with five gallons of water. When I did mine I was warned to remove the radiator and thermostat first. But I just removed the thermostat(so it wouldn't get plugged up),mixed up a half order of the flush, poured it in, and drove the car to work and back(about 75 miles). Then I disconnected the upper hose, stuck the garden hose in the thermostat opening, and began to backflush. Well, what a mess! The driveway was covered with dark, rusty brown water for over an hour.THAT'S how much sludge this stuff loosened up. I kept flushing until the water ran absolutely clear( abouy another half hour), then mixed up a batch of the neutralizer and poured it in. The next morning, I drove the car to work and back again. When I got home, once again, I removed the upper hose and backflushed. AGAIN, the driveway was red for an hour.This stuff really loosened the crap. After flushing again until clear, I mixed up a fresh batch of antifreeze,and put it in. The third day, off I went to work- and the water temperature was about15-20 degrees lower at all times.Now the car runs right at 75 degrees on the gauge,even in August.But I did have to change the antifreeze two more times, as residual rust continued to appear for a few more weeks. And I also took the opportunity to recore the radiator with the 4 row General Motors core that is dimensionally identical with the stock R-type core | ||
| Bill Vatter Frequent User Username: bill_vatter Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2004 |
Hello Guys, My early MK VI B340DA has some sludge in the engine block, but effects on cooling are not obvious. The temperature gage stays at 80-85 C all the time, coldest winter day and pulling hills in fierce summer heat. While this temperature is higher than normal, the fact that it never seems to change causes me to conclude it is a problem with the gage or an extra-hot thermostat. Other symptoms, somewhat obsucre: During warm up (coolant hot oil cold) the valve noise is very noticable and some valves are louder than others. When the engine is fully warmed up after driving 30 miles or so (oil hot as well as coolant), the valves are silent, as they are when cold. I stop the car for 10 or 15 minutes when the coolant is hot but the oil still cold (a market stop on the way to my final destination). When I come out of the market and start the engine the valves are SILENT. However, in a very short time (about a minute) they are banging away again. The clearances are set correctly. I analyze this situation as follows: The temperature of the block is close to the temperature of the coolant. The temperature of the pushrod is close to the temperature of the oil. During warmup, the block gets hot before the pushrods. The block expands more than the pushrods and there is excessive clearance. When it is fully warmed up the pushrod expansion catches up with the block expansion, and the clearance is again correct. During my short stop, there is no oil circulation to keep the pushrods cool, and they warm up by heat transfer from the block, but when I restart, the oil flow resumes and they cool off. This valve noise is generally not characteristic of other cars, so I am scratching my head. I got some important additional information when I went to change coolant. Opened the drain cock, and nothing came out. Only after I removed the drain cock and spent considerable effort probing inside with wires could I get it to drain. When I broke through the crud, the drain flow was what it should be, but when I went to refill, it took almost a gallon less than it should have to fill up. Conclusion: About a gallon of crud is in my block, and because of this crud, the cylinders are running hotter than they should, and this is causing more block expansion that is normal. OK now what. The screws holding the side plates are rusted in position, and aren't coming out without heroic effort. I twisted off one screw head trying, and decided that getting the covers off is best left for when the engine is out of the car. I am preparing a replacement engine so that I can keep the car on the road while I overhaul the one that is currently in there, but I am thinking hard about this acid treatment. Rich, you said the Nalco 2015 did not hurt anything. However, you also changed your radiator core. I wonder if it took anything off your cylinder head surfaces or the water distribution gallery? I continue to also wonder about 10% HCl, which will probably will be OK if I don't leave it in there very long. Wishful thinking? I don't want to dissolve anything but the crud pile inside this engine. I know the only really good fix will be to strip the block and clean it separately, but I would like to try if I can get some confidence I won't be dissolving anything important. It will probably be winter 07-08 before I replace the engine. (Northern hemisphere winter) Additional comments please. | ||
| Marty Unregistered guest Posted From: c211-30-199-195.carlnfd3.nsw.optusnet.com.au |
Hi guys, Well, I pulled the rad out and got it tested, clean as, no problems there. I pulled the water pump, some crud, but not bad. Cleaned it up. The little holes that are in the backing plate of the pump where blocked, as was the small hole that goes through into the block. Cleaned that out to. Looked at the round covers, they are going to be VERY difficult to remove. Brass tube is looking OK, no blockages there. When I put it back together, it sat just below 75, so maybe those small holes play a significant part in pump operation? (Message approved by david_gore) |
