| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 582 Registered: 4-2003 |
I would like to know how many MkVI and R-Type owners have seat belts fitted, and how the B pillars are reinforced. My car for one has had inertia reels in the front since 1975. Also, has motor registry complaince been gained as I had to do in the ACT way back then ? Does anyone have inertia reels on the rear seats ? | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 342 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard, I assume you have or have seen the original instructions for fitting seat belts to the Mk VI? They were lap and sash. The 1970 PVI has lap and sash also factory fitted. BBC PS I am still trying to get my old feet to adapt to the algorythms and of course the memory of the various movements are a bit of a strain on the system. When I have mastered the steps I am going to ask JD to possibly do a pas de deaux with me. Dear me the boys up in the celestial design rooms must be shaking their heads. Yet for all our science we are still stuck with the incredably skillful but laborious and crude casting of blocks so essential to all our efforts. Only yesterday I saw work done by an old hand who electrically 'welds' damaged blocks mainly in cast iron but also in alloy. He is chasing my age and talking of retiring and alas there is no successor. It is a worry. Lastly thanks to you and Bob C for sharing your knowledge. As David G pointed out that is what it is all about!!! | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Richard, No seat belts in the Freestone & Webb. The B pillars are a piece of roughly welded angle iron, with a bracket roughly welded on for the indicators. You could tell nobody was ever supposed to look at this, as it looks like a bit of offcut! No way you could put an anchor bolt on here. The top is held to the roof with wood screws. When our first born came allong 7 years ago (how time flies) we fitted rear seat belts to the Magnette, to hold the baby capsule. The guy fitting this looked at the B pillars on the MG and said he didn't think they where strong enough so didn't want to fit lap sash to the front. He did fit lap only, with big plates under the floor. The Magnette is full monocoque chassis, and I have seen other cars fitted with lap sash, but I think I would go for a 5 point when the MG retires from daily driver duties and returns to competition. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 546 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks Martin and Bill. Yes, I have seen the lap-sash arrangent drawings mentioned. The reason I ask is that I just don't feel comfortable without seat belts. Whenever I drive my friend's long-boot Silver Dawn I do two thing immediately wrong: I try to jam the ignition key through the speedo, located where the ignition is on a Bentley, then reach for the seat belts which don't exist on his car. I really feel unsafe in that car being used to one almost identical but with proper seat belts. His is a UK-delivered car, so has semaphore turn signals unlike mine. That means that the Dawn's B pillars are much weaker. I am urging him to fit seat belts, but face the same dilemmas as Martin points out. I would need to remove the semaphores, weld the pillars up and strengthen them. Added is the complication of inertia reels which sent the Canberra registration guys in a spin. The approximately 1.5:1 mechanical advantage of the pulley effect of the pillar mount makes any weakness even more critical. The Engineer's office gave written approval when the engineer inspected the substantial reinforcement applied by welding in a substantial U channel while respraying the car. The advantage of inertia reels is of course that retractable belts stow neatly and leave the floor and door jambs alone, and are more likely to be used as they are so convenient. | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2004 |
Richard, Do you think you drive with more care because you feel unsafe? This theory is widely used in the US by motorcyclists advocating no helmets. If you feel unsafe, then you concentrate more and drive more carefully. This increased level of anticipation as to what other road users are doing around you ensures you will anticipate they will not stop their very safe Volvo at the stop sign, and the one time that they don't do it, you are ready for them. Sort of the same idea now advocated for street safety. By removing all the signs, and merging the footpath with the road, people are more uncertain of what they should be doing, and so concentrate and anticipate more. It is working very well in Europe, and apparently about to be undertaken in London. Can't happen fast enough in Sydney, however where would be the revenue if everybody drove properly? Cynically yours. Marty | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Martin, Richard, I have the extreme honour of driving a choice of 2 Silver Wraiths on the weekends for weddings (as well as a Silver Cloud 11 and Bentley S2 which unfortunately has a Rolls-Royce Grille). The Silver Wraiths also have no seat belts but even though the other cars do, I notice that the brides with Crineolins cannot use them. In my role as a chauffeur, I always drive with anticipation in mind which makes your point Marty, very valid. As have have driven these Silver Wraiths for the last three owners over the last twenty years, I suppose that I am quite used to them. I must admit that I DO feel safer with seat belts but I have long ago got used to driving without them on these fine cars (I'm sorry, I don't have their chassis numbers handy). The 1949 model (Garfield), was the Melbourne Motor Show car of that year and was originally taken delivery of by Dame Hilda Stevenson. The 1951 model was also a Motor Show car for its year and was originally TJ Dowd's car (of the Hickory 'cross your heart' bra fame). I first met these two when they were owned by Graeme Dowd (No relation to Tom), then Michael Bristow and Now Winston is leased from Carl Dowd ( the original owner's Grandson) and Garfield is leased from David Brownell. Both vehicles work for Vehicles de'Elegance Wedding Hire , operated by David and Nola Wright (lovely people they are too). | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 549 Registered: 4-2003 |
Martin, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the No Helmets theory. It's like saying you're a safe skier and bolting your boots to the skis to prove it. Australia led the world in seat belt legislation and we should be proud of that. I do not believe that it changed the driving behaviour for the worse. Quite the reverse, a seat belt is a constant reminder that safety is paramount. Since the mid-1980s you wouldn't have dreamed of buying a car without ABS, and now air bags, and I don't believe that anyone relies on either to drive less cautiously. If the ABS kicks in, it is a very shrill reminder that you have made a serious mistake. I will never own a car without ABS unless it is something special like your MkVI, and I will always retrofit seatbelts if at all possible. I accept that stately processions and weddings are special cases though. I wonder whether the Governor-General wears his seat belts in the Phantom VI ? By the way, the shared road and footpath zones in much of Europe, Germany included, have a very clear sign stating that you must drive at a walking pace. If you drive at 6km/h you will attract a hefty fine. Most city centres have gone the way of Pitt St: no cars allowed, and like since recently in Australia, residential streets are generally limited to 30 km/h. | ||
| Bill Coburn Grand Master Username: bill_coburn Post Number: 335 Registered: 4-2003 |
Richard in answer to your question they are there but not worn. | ||
| Ashley James Unregistered guest Posted From: 80.229.46.15 |
This is on the RREC website: Members may well have read the report in the press of an accident to a MkVI in 1997 when a passenger was thrown through the screen. This has led to enquiries from Register Members about the fitting of seat belts or harnesses. It seems to me to be a field into which unqualified people should venture with treat care. I do not offer myself as qualified in any way to advise you.. The best I can do is to discuss with you self-evident facts about the car structure and think about considerations which ought be relevant in some cases. In the end it's up to you. Three point harnesses are pretty universal these days. If you want to understand where and how the shock loads of an accident will occur sit in any family car and pull on the harness smartly. You will sense the direction and nature of the loads far more quickly than by reading any long winded words I would write. To understand our problem you have to go back more than 50 years to see the philosophy behind the design of our cars. The chassis was an all-important structure. With the coming of independent front suspension it was built on heroic lines. Mounted upon it was a gentleman's carriage. Whether coachbuilt or standard steel the approach was the same - build the carriage as a separate structure and bolt the two together through silentbloc rubber bushes. This leads to our fundamental problem. The chassis is strong and probably capable of absorbing a considerable blow. The carriage has to transmit the loads applied by the harness. Unless that carriage has adequate strength it will fail, and unless it is properly attached to the chassis it will not benefit from chassis strength. It seemed to me to be essential to understand how the body was constructed before you could consider how the loads from the harness could be transmitted to the chassis. I had the enormous benefit of being able to consult the original Pressed Steel Company's drawings in the Archives at the Hunt House. I am extremely grateful to Philip Hall for his initial work which led me to comprehend that the matter was more complicated than I thought. I can only talk to you about standard steel cars. Spare a thought for those of us with coachbuilt cars. Here the construction is twice as involved and half the strength as well as being different for almost every car. We now consider the rear floor which, unlike the front floor, is not removable. It has a strengthening channel spot-welded to its leading edge. This not only stiffens the rear floor but provides the fixing for the front floor at its back edge. The rear floor proper resembles the lid of a very large biscuit tin with edges turned up. It sits upon, and is spot welded to, the sill. However, and very importantly, it oversails the supporting sill by an inch before the turned up edge is spot welded to the inner skin of the door post. The whole assembly is reminiscent of a Tudor house where the first floor projects beyond the ground floor and is supported by cantilevered beams. The difference, I feel, is that the house construction was a bit over-engineered The doorpost itself by reason of its multiple skins and flanging is probably the strongest part of the structure. Lastly we come to the bolt 3/8 B.S.F. which is the only connection between all the bits and the chassis. It passes down through the floor, the sill bracket, the silentbloc bush and the chassis bracket. There is nothing else in this area. It is easily located when you lift the carpet, it is exactly in line with slide of the Dunlop jack Let's face it, nothing that we can do to strengthen the carriage structure will give the degree of safety we might expect from something which was designed with safety in mind right from the start. What degree of improvement is possible? I do not know. Whilst the sole purpose of fitting seat belts is to protect passengers, we do not need to damage the car unnecessarily in the process. Any blow transmitted by the belt will, if the elastic limit of the steel is passed, distort the body. This will in itself absorb energy but we are wise to spread the load as best we can. What I have written so far is, I hope, factually correct and could be checked by the Hunt House drawings. What follows is purely an amateur's view of what the drawings disclose. Neither I nor R-REC accept any responsibility for anything that I say or omit to say. It is up to every owner to evaluate the matter. And in the same breath I do not criticise any installation already done -circumstances could well be different. Furthermore my view itself could well be challenged. Your experiments with the family car seat belts will have demonstrated that we need to think about 3 fixing points. If I owned a standard steel car I should want to look at the foot of the doorpost. An angle bracket here would help to secure a fundamentally weak joint. The foot has to be long enough to get over the sill bracket beneath, it has to provide fixing for the start of the lap belt, it has to provide foundation for the reel mechanism. It must be bolted down with the 3/8" fixing bolt already noted. Do not under any circumstances replace this bolt with anything other than a high tensile one. If you are going to strengthen the joint at the foot of the doorpost you will need a good strong bracket. I would guess about 5mm thick. You can, I believe, only attach it to the flanges of the doorpost on their perimeter and to get at these flanges you will have to remove some trim. The flanges present a face about 1" wide through which you will have to drill to get the centres for drilling the bracket. This is not a job for careless workers - 'it has to be right'. Avoid the spot welds and you could get about 5 x 2BA bolts each side in a bracket 4" up from the floor. They have to be fitted bolts with nuts on the inside of the bracket. By the way, the floor is not square to the doorpost, so make the bracket oversize then you can trim it when fitting. The fixing to the floor in the middle of the car is perhaps more simple because the cross bracing of the chassis lies below. However you strengthen the floor itself it is spot welded to the sill at its perimeter. A mighty pull in the middle (two mighty pulls if you have a passenger) could tear it all away. Why not find a way down to the chassis? That leaves the door post shoulder fixing. Rolls-Royce addressed this question in 1973 and I append their TSD memo, Appendix 4. Their sketch is not to scale unfortunately. You see they advocate %" diameter bolts. Your car may have flanges wide enough to get this size but it is important not to break out at the edges. If you can get lA" holes so much the better both here and at the foot of the doorpost. If you have a problem use 2BA but twice as many of them. If anyone wants to check any of the foregoing, drawings are available from the Hunt House and could be supplied. Me - well I'm going to the air-raid shelter at the bottom of the garden till the storm blows over! (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Richard, I don't buy the no helmet theory either, as you can anticipate all you like, but somebody is still going to try and kill you. My point is the theory that humans behave differently when they think they are in an unsafe environment, versus when they think they are "safe". I drive the MK VI based on the knowledge that if I have an accident, I am going to get hurt. No way of getting around that fact. So, I drive accordingly. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2004 |
Someone told me once that you have to think that everyone else on the road is an idiot. If you keep this in mind, you should always be on your guard, whether you have seat belts or not. Irrespective of how careful you drive, somewhere down the line, someone is going to get you. How serious the consequences are, depends on your speed, how far you are travelling behind the car in front of you and how fast you react. Then of course there's the rear shunt and side impact. There is no doubt that seat belts have saved countless lives, but if you happen to be driving a car without them, it is imperative that you compensate. If you do not! Well! Need I say more? | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2004 |
Well! I think I may have to eat some of my words above today. I was driving in my Silver Spur (wearing seat belts as were all of my passengers), along the Maroondah Highway in Lilydale when a panel van, driving in the centre lane, for no apparent reason and without any indication slew into my path. I swerved and braked heavily but he still smashed into my driver's door and right front guard. I was going to drive onto the footpath to avoid the collision but there were pedestrians on it, so I had to just grit my teeth and wait for the inevitible bang. Fortunately, I was driving slowly at the time otherwise the damage to both the car and its occupants could have been considerably more serious. My point is, that although this is the first collision I have had in nearly thirty years, there are just times when you simply cannot anticipate. I doubt whether anyone would have been injured in this particular inter-vehicle argument but it does highlight now to me the dangers of driving without a seat belt. The old Silver Wraiths I drive do not have them and as I do not own them, I have very little control as to their installation (although I will be talking to the owners this weekend). I suppose it is fortunate that the other driver is insured ( as naturally I am also). It is also fortunate that I was not driving faster and that we were all wearing seatbelts. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 571 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thank goodness no one was hurt. Just a comment, if you have inertia reels, passengers tend to wear the seat belts. If not, they get tucked away and are often not worn. This is especially true in the back. On insurance, the Australian states and territories should wake up. It beats me that a car is legal without even third party property insurance as a bare minimum. The cars without are usually the worthless and unsafe ones owned by people with no means to pay for the damage they cause. Those are the very cars which should not be allowed on the roads in most cases. Third party property insurance is cheap, and is compulsory in practically every other civilised country. My brother has lost two cars to uninsured people through rear end shunts when waiting at red traffic lights. It is almost impossible to get a cent from anyone who does not have this basic insurance. Then there are your own no-claims bonus and deductible to worry about. Your unfortunate accident highlights two things: you cannot always avoid an accident, but careful driving can sometimes reduce injury and damage. Thank goodness you didn't hit a pedestrian. My brother's cases are even more stark. Sometimes, your own behaviour can never mitigate an accident, especially a rear end shunt, and especially when stopped at a red light. I try to leave more space in front to move a metre or so if needed and have avoided more than one minor rear end shunt that way, but that's about all the space you can leave without annoying the other drivers and inciting road rage. Being perhaps the least controllable situation, in a rear end shunt with another car in front, I suggest that seat belts are even more essential in any car to avoid or reduce double-whammy injuries. No Helmet, No Brain to protect. Now, how do I retrofit airbags... | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 122 Registered: 12-2004 |
Never a truer word was said Richard and yes! Thank goodness no-one was hurt. Cars, even RR/B's take a very poor second place to humans. I have inertia reels and you make a fair comment about passengers preferring to wear them. Fotunately for me the other driver was also insured and I actually think that full comprehensive should be mandatory even if it does bump up the price of registration. It would certainly be cheaper and less heartbreaking in the long run. There was an article (I think in the RACV newsletter), about an Australian company that makes aftermarket airbags for all makes of vehicles. I can't remember the cost, but what value can one put on life? | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 399 Registered: 4-2003 |
Notwithstanding the fact that you are insured; DO NOT rely on the Insurance Company assessors to approve the necessary repairs - get an independent assessor to give you an assessment of the work required to restore your car before permitting any work to proceed. Be aware that the Insurers do not question each others assessments before approving work and you need to make sure you get your chosen repairer to keep you informed of any contact from the insurance assessor regarding adjustments. Under no circumstances allow your car to go to a repairer of the insurer's choice; only use a recognised R-R/B specialist I had a similar situation with DRH14434 where the assessor from the liable party's insurance company arbitrarily reduced a well-known R-R/B repairers estimate by 20% despite the fact that the assessor knew nothing about the work involved and just assumed it was an ordinary car as well as having the hide to tell me I was expecting too much considering the car was 30 years old. I contacted the NSW Motor Traders Association who gave me some good advice and also provided me with the names of some independent assessors who could help me. If I had accepted the insurer's assessment, my repairer would have refused to do the job as he would have to provide a warranty on work that was not done to the required standard and his reputation would also have been adversely affected. Banking on this reaction, the assessor would then "hawk" the job around their "preferred repairers" to find someone who would cut enough corners to do the work at the assessor's price and make a profit. I contracted the job to the R-R specialist on my account and submitted the invoice to the liable insurer who refused to pay - I then took legal action and the matter was settled at the courtroom door for the actual repair cost plus my costs and interest. The independent assessor's assessment for $150 was the best investment I made as this was the deciding factor - the insurer was aware all the time that the court would have given greater credibility to the independent assessor than the insurance assessor and played difficult in the hope I would get discouraged and settle on their terms before I had to go to court. Of course, the car was repaired properly and to a standard commensurate with its heritage!! | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank you for your input and concerns David, I have already arranged the work to be done by a trusted repairer and approved by Rob Chapman (His word is definitely good enough for me), Shannons have regular dealings with this repairer and They have given me the choice of repairer to use and only require one quote. Fortunately, and being the sturdy cars that Rolls-Royce products are, the damgae isn't too bad. After I polished off all the black marks, it looks a lot less traumatic than it did before. When I rang Shannons, they were very helpful and told me that I could choose my own repairer (especially as I had an excellent driving record), and they will get things moving straight away so I can get old 'Charles' back on the road as soon as possible. They would also guarantee the repairs for the life of the car. | ||
| Richard Treacy Grand Master Username: richard_treacy Post Number: 572 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'll make a note elsewhere on insurance, but in short make sure that your comprehensive policy gives you the explicit right to the wreck in case of a write-off. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Richard. Yes my policy does have that inclusion. Iv'e been with Shannons for 25 years and I have been very happy with them. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi all. I finally managed to get old Charles off to the panel beaters today. The garage looks quite forlorn without the old chap there and I will just have to go about my weekend trips in my 'bread and butter' special (XC Falcon). It seems that I was quite fortunate about the location of the damage as it didn't intrude into any vital areas. If this was the case, it could have facilitated the removal of the engine to affect a proper repair. Something I never even gave a thought to. Anyway! hopefully it won't be off the road for too long. The repairer comes heavily recommended by Chapman automotive (Thanks Rob), so I know that he is in very good hands. |
