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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1906
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 08 February, 2016 - 01:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This subject has been transferred from another Topic following the comment below by Robert Reddington which aroused some interest in this aspect of the Rolls-Royce history of car manufacture:

"RR being a small volume car maker has selected greases that will work in all markets, some of these markets are harsh like the Australian outback and red dust wash board roads.

RR dropped a clanger in the 1950s with the Mk6 Bentleys RR under estimated the harsh ness of OZ roads. The chassis cracked around the front suspension area."
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.147.219.187
Posted on Tuesday, 02 February, 2016 - 07:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The MK VI cars ordered for the "Colonies", were usually fitted with stiffer coil springs, but as the whole of the frame is very strong, especially up to the front seat area I doubt that the cracking ever occurred, that you suggest,Bob. Do you have any definite evidence of this?

It is a mistake to use MS3 in a Bentone base in high speed assemblies, eg hubs, as it doesn't have the higher temperature capacity.
Graphite grease is never use in CV joints, it is always MS3.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1898
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 - 07:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christopher,

Yes - the cracking problem did occur and the NSW R-R/B distributor York Motors devised a solution which they did on all new cars delivered to them until RRMC implemented this modification during production at Crewe.

I cannot recall whether Don Appleby from York Motors went to the UK to explain the modification or RRMC came to Sydney to see the actual modification being undertaken in York Motors workshop. There are Club members who know more about this than myself and hopefully one will be able to provide more information.
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 - 06:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I believe B188AK was one of the first modified, by Alex Brown from York Motors, Sydney.
I was told RR came to view it here, thought it a bit crude and then later issued instructions identical to his design.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.50.227
Posted on Wednesday, 03 February, 2016 - 06:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

That is very interesting as there is no mention of this in any of the modifications lists.
Kindly inform me of any details, as some of these very early cars are bought by the professional special builders.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Saturday, 06 February, 2016 - 03:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris, I know I have seen something written about this but have not been able to locate it yet.
Here are the best pics I can find of B188AK at the moment.




This shows the heavier front mount brackets.
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1901
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, 06 February, 2016 - 06:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Carl,

How fortunate we are for your vehicle incorporating the York Motors modification and thank you for the photos. I recall discussing this with Tom Small when the NSW Branch held the "Thank You" Dinner for the York Motors staff when the R-R/B distributorship changed hands circa 1998.

I suspect NSW Branch members David Neely and Lloyd Missen would be a good starting point as would Ralph Appleby [Don Appleby's son] from Paradise Garage in Alexandria and John Vawser. Tom Clarke from the RREC[UK] would be another possibility.

This was the era when graziers were getting a "pound for a pound of wool" thanks to the Korean War and the stories of sheep being carried in the back seat of R-R/B vehicles commensurate with the value of these sheep to their owners originated. Australian sales of new R-R/B vehicles were very strong during this period.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.147.219.238
Posted on Saturday, 06 February, 2016 - 07:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Carl,
Thank you for the information and the pictures. Do you know if the original bracket was welded on or bolted as shown, as all the ones that I have seen have been welded?
This "floating power" (US) engine/gearbox mounting was a bad idea from the start, but happily the R-R design defect was relatively minor.
The only reference to a modification comes in the "D" series, as "Export features on all cars".

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Sunday, 07 February, 2016 - 08:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris,
I would thing they were riveted, as are B14BH, B229FU and B148MD.
I suspect that the cracking of the front chassis was eliminated at the introduction of progressive bump stops at B466EY. In my experience, the early arrangement is deeply inadequate on poor roads.
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Sunday, 07 February, 2016 - 06:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This image (just) shows the tapered plate ending past the lower arm.

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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Monday, 08 February, 2016 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

'RR&B in the Sunburnt Country' p418 provides some details on the modifications by Bert Ward (not Alex Brown) first carried out on SBA30
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1904
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, 08 February, 2016 - 01:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Carl,

Thanks for refreshing my memory, you are correct in nominating Bert Ward as the York Motors employee responsible for the modification and my nomination of Don Appleby was incorrect.

My uncertainty is why I nominated David Neely and Tom Clarke, the co-authors of "Rolls-Royce and Bentley in the Sunburnt Country" as possible sources of more precise information.

The full story of this episode in the history of Rolls-Royce Limited would make very interesting reading especially if the interaction between the British "traditionalist" and Australian "colonial" participants had been documented for posterity.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.54.65
Posted on Tuesday, 09 February, 2016 - 01:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

This is very interesting and I am attempting to locate this book, but they do seem expensive now.
I see from Bernard King,s book that SBA30 (SD) had a roof rack from new, and later fitted with underneath protective plates. Later fitted with a big bore engine,B90P.
As an R-R/Bentley manual gearbox and axle specialist, these also were quite extensively modified, and a number of very early ones keep cropping up. I have the Flying Lady feature on the "W2" modification written by Bill Coburn, based on the Service Bulletin.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1907
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, 09 February, 2016 - 08:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Christopher,

It is an excellent book being the result of extensive and assiduous research by the authors to document Australian-delivered R-R/B vehicles.

The book is published by the Australian Sir Henry Royce Foundation. According to the Foundation's website, it is currently on sale at AUD75 plus postage and packaging for overseas buyers:

http://www.roycefoundation.com.au/services/publications

A comprehensive supplement to the book is also available for downloading free-of-charge through the following link:

http://www.roycefoundation.com.au/uploadedFiles/1417690241817-8721.pdf

If you are a member or know a member of the RREC, the book should be in their Library and possibly available for borrowing. Alternatively, your local library may be able to access a copy on inter-library loan for you - see what your local librarian can do for you.
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 09 February, 2016 - 05:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I have sent Chris an email of the relevant page.
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.18.61
Posted on Tuesday, 09 February, 2016 - 07:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

David,
Yes I have contacted the foundation by email and await a reply.
Carl,
Very much appreciated,I would love to see a copy of the drawings.
It is a few years since I worked on an early car, but I would of course never have had any reason to inspect the frame for comparison.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 86
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, 26 February, 2016 - 06:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I found another reference in Martyn Nutland's Rolls-Royce Wraith, Dawn, Cloud, Bentley VI & R. Page 21.

"At R Type B349TO all welded frames replaced the riveted type, however, it is wise to be wary of hard and fast rules. Some chassis were part welded, part riveted and some had strengthening plates welded to the outside face of the side members where they are shaped to accommodate the front suspension"
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.169.76.180
Posted on Friday, 26 February, 2016 - 06:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

HI Carl,
A far more interesting book than it first appears.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Carl Heydon
Frequent User
Username: car

Post Number: 87
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Saturday, 27 February, 2016 - 09:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I do not have access to B188AK at the moment. I would love to take better images of the mods. Unfortunately, after carrying out extensive work on the car, it is now back in a shed, unregistered, as I found it, 10 years prior. At least I was able to revive it, drive it and rebuild the engine before darkness descended again.
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Randy Roberson
Grand Master
Username: wascator

Post Number: 638
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, 01 March, 2016 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I recall my Hero Bill Coburn offered comments on the chassis cracking once; perhaps in Tee One Topics.
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Carl Heydon
Prolific User
Username: car

Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Saturday, 27 August, 2016 - 06:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

B188AK is out of hibernation and I am preparing it for the road. Here are some better pics of the chassis mods










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