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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 215
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi guys,

i have a squeak in the lh rear wheel of B256MD. At first I thought it was something like a loose hub cap, but I have had the brake drum off twice now, and I am unable to find any evidence inside the drum. When i spin the wheel the noise is there with the axle unladen. If you wiggle the axle with the drum dissassembled, there is some up and down play. No metal in the diff oil. No oil leak from the oil seal. Any thoughts? I have never removed a rear axle before, is it a simple matter of undoing the ring of retaining bolts in the backing plate?

Cheers

Martin
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David Gore
Moderator
Username: david_gore

Post Number: 1749
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi Martin,

Had similar experiences with my earlier [non R-R/B] vehicles and it was invariably due to worn outer wheel bearings on the drive shafts. The cause of the wear [usually accelerated] was often due to the fitting of oversized wheels and/or tyres where the increased weight increased the load on the bearings. Water penetration from creek and river crossings was another cause of premature bearing failure.
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 216
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 03:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi David,

Peter Limon overhauled the rear axle at 99,000 miles, done 40000 miles since then, standard size tyres.

Looking at the handbook, getting the axle out is straight forward, I am thinking of taking the axle out of the R Type and swapping them over to see if the noise goes away, assuming the axle is the same.

Will keep you posted.

Martin
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christopher carnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.164.119.15
Posted on Sunday, 04 October, 2015 - 08:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

It sounds like the ball race is breaking up. They are a deep groove type, with an extended 35 mm inner race non-standard. There is a Flying Lady bodge with a standard 100 mm bearing and a 5 mm spacer, but I would not recommend it.
The bearing is held in place by a pressed on collar with a .0035" - 0045" interference fit and they have to be turned off. If you are making some they need to be in at least EN24, 1% Ni/Cr.
There is an additional complication in that the bearings turn on the axle journal due to fretting corrosion.
Fools use Loctite or similar,wise men have them hard chromed and ground.
The axle is told in detail in Section J of the Service Manual/Handbook.
I have had a batch of bearings made to FBC specification by HB,but they will cost you 500 a pair, plus carriage. JB have the R-R collars, about 65.
I have had axles where the bearings have disintegrated and the road wheel has punched its way off the collar, bent and blued in the process.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 563
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Monday, 05 October, 2015 - 08:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The wheel bearing is worn out there should be zero radial play. This is dangerous and the car must not be driven like this

To remove collars lay collar on anvil and hit hard with a cold chisel in 4 places this will stretch the collar and it falls off. To fit bearing and collar freeze shaft in chest freezer overnight. Heat bearing and collar max 200c as recommended by SKF bearings. 2 stage process. Do bearing first. Then refreeze shaft with bearing. Otherwise the collar is liable to jam as the bearing quickly heats up the shaft. A scaffold pole dropped over the shaft seats bearing and collar. Or use proper press.

No doubt this is an imperial sized bearing these are still available.

How is this bearing lubricated and is it being lubricated is the next question because 40k miles is a bit soon for a wheel bearing which often out last the car.

Live axles are easy to change but an assistant will be needed. Undo the U bolts etc. Then feed the axle out of the side. If not enough room drop one road spring down by undoing the rear shackle.

So day before the operation oil the bolts.


Or just pull the half shaft.

Remove brake back plate complete with brake gubbins. Then fit heavy chain to wheel studs and jerk the chain or use proper half shaft slide hammer but the stud pattern is weird. Or using the holes that secure the shaft and bearing punch through the holes to contact the axle flange where the wheel studs are, and twat with 'ammer.

I quite like live rear axles the advantages of independent rear suspension are over stated. I have driven loads of cars with live axles and they drove fine.

The axle should be gloss black.
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 217
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Monday, 05 October, 2015 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Thanks for the info guys, in the process of removing the axle from my r type, zero play in this bearing, but you are right, the slide hammer doesn't fit on the studs, bugger.

How tight are the axles usually?

Cheers
Martin
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christopher carnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.164.119.81
Posted on Monday, 05 October, 2015 - 05:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin,

Read the books!

What you do is
1)Remove the brake drum.
2)In the recess behind the backplate are 5 No 3/8" deep nuts, clean and oil the threads, not with spray cleaners as the have no lubricating properties, with a socket and a cranked ring spanner remove the nuts, as the access is not easy.
Leave the 1/4" nuts alone.
3) Tap the cut head bolts into the brake area, and with a good two handed firm pull, the hub and axle shaft all come out.
4) You will then see that the bearing grease has all melted out into the housing recess.
5)If you do one side you must do the other.
6)Removal of the collars is described in both the the service bulletins and the Service Manual.
Turn down in a lathe to the last 20 thou, then carefully cut with a chisel to avoid damaging the journal. (Or if you are good with angle grinder!!!! the steel is really tough.)
The collars cannot be hammered off!

Press the shaft out as described in the books.

The books are on this site under PW Technical Library.

The standard metric sized bearing is not correct.

Christopher.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 568
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Tuesday, 06 October, 2015 - 04:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Chris.
You are correct the collar cannot be hammered off.

My method is that the collar is hit radially which stretches the collar. I have done this many times.

The hammer and chisel are at right angles to the shaft length.
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christopher carnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.54.52
Posted on Tuesday, 06 October, 2015 - 05:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Robert,
The interference fit is at the extreme of driving fits and also the collar is partially within aperture of the bearing housing,and not only that but it is too tough and thick for unsupported
hammering.
Certain specialists have been known to heat the
R-R collars to red heat and knocking it on, rendering it useless, as on cooling,the interference fit is almost lost.
Chris.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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NORMAN GEESON
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.97.26.213
Posted on Tuesday, 06 October, 2015 - 07:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin

Go to www.KDA132.com at the axle section it will tell you how to replace and convert the broken bearing you are experiencing.

If anyone should doubt the method ask them why over 700 axle sets have been successful, and multiple trips on the Peking Paris rally have never produced a failure.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Robert Noel Reddington
Grand Master
Username: bob_uk

Post Number: 586
Registered: 5-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 08:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

I didn't realise the collar was obstructed. That means cutting the collar and if a lathe is handy then quickest safest way of doing the job. If there's a centre in the flange that can be run off then much closer than 20 thou can easily be achieved with out hitting the shaft. 2 thou and it would probably crack on its own before you got there.

The mechanics who heat to red heat are unaware how metals work and need to go back to school. 200c is enough. Its dangerous because 800c or cherry red is past critical point at which some materials change and cannot return to their original state with out heat treatment using ovens and over expensive stuff. Usually 800c will draw the temper from the steel and it will be weaker.

A really old bodge was to apply acid to the shaft press bearing on and allow the fit to go rusty.

I prefer fully floating axles. Bearings so much easier to change.
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 63
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 01:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Norman...
Thank you for posting that link. The KDA132 website is my personal favorite for detailed information on the EPW models and it is highly recommended to owners of those wonderful machines which are an absolute pleasure to drive, unless of course you plan on going about your travels unnoticed, since they are virtual compliment and admiration magnets!
For those interested in the article, the link takes you to the home page, where you select "technical", and then "axles" from the top menu.
Norman...two comments though...the 3rd article does not seem to be available and is as missed as the final chapter in a "who done it" novel, and forgive my noticing that the figures in part 2 are not numbered, which, while a small issue, I found myself wondering if I was correlating the proper photo to the companion text. Again, thanks! Christian
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 5.80.53.220
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 05:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

The unauthorised, substitute bearing article in the Flying Lady came with an Editorial disclaimer.
The author of the KDA123 scheme makes plain the reasons for the unauthorized use of a double angular contact ball race, which frankly admits of too much alteration and fine machining for it to succeed.
Too many seekers of "perfection" in "Crewe's Finest" take the path of buying cheaply available substitute components.
You pay your money and you take your choice.

In 1907,two De Dion Bouton type IE cars of 10CV completed the original course of the resurrected Peking to Paris Rally.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Norman Geeson
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.97.26.213
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 07:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Christian

Unfortunately I do not have any influence over the web site host in respect of article layout. Some time ago an attempt was made to update the site. This was not altogether successful, you have pointed out two such points, both of which were originally present and correct.

The site is/was expensive to operate and the problems coincided with some very major health issues to contributors and their families.

This health issue, (my wife is left side paralysed), is also curbing my own input to technical/ club web sites.

Unfortunately this means it may take some time to readjust the articles.

You would need to look under "Wheels" and not "Axles" to view comments on half shaft bearings.

(Message approved by david_gore)
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Christian S. Hansen
Frequent User
Username: enquiring_mind

Post Number: 64
Registered: 4-2015
Posted on Wednesday, 07 October, 2015 - 09:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Norman...
Thank you for the reply, but rest assured that my comments were simply observations and not necessarily criticisms. I am so sorry to hear of family difficulties. As we all get older, is it with sadness that I hear, with unfortunate increasing frequency, of such events. Over the years I have held the deepest admiration and respect for you and your contributions which, if I may be so bold to say, placed you as one of my "Heros of the RR/B Marque". My best wishes and prayers are conveyed. Christian
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Martin Cutler
Prolific User
Username: martin_cutler

Post Number: 218
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Thursday, 08 October, 2015 - 07:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Hi guys,

You all get a gold star, swapped the r type axle and the noise is gone. Now to pull the old bearing apart and find out why it failed.

Thanks guys
Martin
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ChristopherCarnley
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 86.176.214.61
Posted on Friday, 09 October, 2015 - 03:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IP

Martin,

Best of luck. It will be that all the grease has run out and that condensation has got in. The seal is in three parts, and outer domed sheet steel one, a sandwich of felt, and an inner flanged steel ring.

(Message approved by david_gore)

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