| Author | Message | ||
     Mark Taxis Experienced User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2007 |
Has anyone used a coolant product called "liquid intelligence" ? This product is claimed to solve over heating problems in older vehicles. If anyone has used this product I would appreciate any feedback http://liquidintelligence115.com.au/ | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 404 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Mark, I have heard of this stuff and read all the claims. As the old saying goes, “If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.” I’m certainly not against anything new and I’m sure there will be many great new products out there that will definitely be to our benefit; but before committing yourself to them, do some research and learn from other people’s experiences. Steppe Boddice has a particular horror story about a ‘new fangled coolant’ and you can refer to it by clicking on http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/miscellaneoust.html under the heading; MT04 A Warning on Coolants - All Cars, Especially with Wet Liners Until you are absolutely convinced (and after others in the know in this forum have advised you), I’d advise that you keep well clear of this, or any other product that advertises extraordinary claims. Just as a quick aside: If there are any Members reading this who reside in the Cyclone Yasi affected areas, please heed all the warnings and keep yourselves safe. We are all there for you. Cheers Rob | ||
| Mark Taxis Experienced User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Rob I agree with you, sounds too good to be true, that is why I am seeking feedback before I commit to anything Rgds Mark | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin_cutler Post Number: 161 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Mark, Just got home from driving my MK 6, today was around 35 degrees in Sydney, pretty warm. The temp gauge never moved off 75 degrees, I am running the Penrite Classic Car coolant, and a top hose filter, which even after cleaning out the block, still picks up some gunk from time to time. Very happy boy, but I wouldn't use the Penrite stuff without the filter, as it seems to have some sort of cleaning agent in it. I change the coolant every 12 months. Finally got the frozen head off my R Type, it wasn't pretty. Piece of #6 exhaust valve is missing. Bores and pistons look OK. How much do you want for the old motor? Cheers Marty | ||
| Mark Taxis Frequent User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 51 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Marty Will look into that product, I am loathe to lash out on this liquid intelegence until I learn more, at $18 per litre it is not cheap. With regard the engine I have sent you a pm | ||
| Dave Puttock Experienced User Username: ariel Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2010 |
This may well be more than you want to know but - It is true that synthetic compounds can be formulated which have a higher boiling point than water. This means that they will allow your cooling system to function at a higher system temperature. Now we all know, from school physics, that the rate of heat transfer is proportional to the temperature difference. Hence if the system is operating at a higher temperature, then the radiator can dissipate more heat, but the cylinder walls will dissipate a little less because they are now closer to the fluid temperature. If your radiator is clogged this can be a help but if the water jacket is furred up this may not be advantageous. Additionally, operating at a higher temperature may reduce the life of seals and may change the lubrication characteristics of your chosen lubricant. Being able to operate at a higher temperature should not be confused with improved efficiency, indeed it is very likely that the cooling efficiency will reduce. Why? Well firstly the water pump has been designed to produce sufficient flow to carry the heat from point A to point B and will do so at a rate equal to mass flowrate x specific heat . We are told that liquid intelligence 115 is 100% glycols. We don’t know exactly what proportions but MonoEthylene Glycol has a boiling point of 197°C so there’s a fair chance that it makes up the lions share of the product. If we compare the properties at about 100°C, from my tables - MEG Density 1067 kg/m³, Spec Ht 2.88 J/kgK, Viscosity 17.8 Cp, T.Cond 0.258 W/mK Water Density 952 kg/m³, Spec Ht 4.18 J/kgK, Viscosity 0.9 Cp, T.Cond 0.609 W/mK The specific heat indicates that for the same heat flow we would need 45% more liquid flow, that’s fine if you are designing a new vehicle, indeed many modern cars are designed with up rated water pumps to use a 50:50 water/glycol mix all the year round., but that’s still 25% short for a 100% glycol coolant. When designing a radiator the engineer would aim to establish turbulent flow, because forced convection is much more efficient than laminar flow. The main aim being to keep the Reynolds number in excess of 2300. I won’t go into a lesson on thermodynamic but suffice to say that from McAdams the heat transfer coefficient h =0.23x k/D x (Re)0.8 x (Pr) 0.4 For MEG the Prandtl number will be about 20 where water is only about 1.75, so (Pr)0.4 will show an increase of about 250% at the same time the first term k/D (thermal conductivity/hydraulic diameter) will show a reduction of 236% so they pretty much cancel out. Which leaves h proportional to (Re)0.8 where Re is given by MassFlux/viscosity so a large increase in viscosity will greatly reduce the Reynolds number, reducing the overall effectiveness and if Re drops below about 2300 could even drop into the laminar region. In short it would be possible to develop an efficient cooling system using pure MEG, but it wouldn’t be as efficient as pure water. It would however be free from corrosion for ever. As I understand it Liquid Intelligence do another product I think its No239 which is for cleaning out the scale and restoring efficiency. Now that is worth looking at, Get it clean, then fill your system with demineralised water, plus whatever antifreeze you need for your climate. | ||
| Mark Taxis Frequent User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi David Thank you for your interesting article. I have used the cleaning agent that Liquid inteligence produce, and I have to say the result was quite startling, the amount of silt and mud that was removed was amazing. I have filled the system with rain water and added a corrosion inhibitor, but I still have the problem that the temperature rises when the car is stationary. If I let it continue it will rise to boiling point. The car is fitted with a Kenlowe fan and switching this on rapidly reduces the temperature back to 75 - 80 degrees. The car is a Mk 6 special with a shortened radiator, but the core has been fattened so the water capacity is 17litres which I believe is just about the same as the original. The mechanical fan fitted is a "homemade" item as the original fan blades were too long and would have hit the header tank. I am now looking at replacing this mechanical fan with one that produces a greater airflow at idle revs. Hopefully this will help, but I think there will always be a need for the electric fan in this climate | ||
| Dave Puttock Experienced User Username: ariel Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2010 |
Mark, I think that what you describe is not altogether unexpected. The problem is firstly that when standing still, engine idling the water flow is probably only a quarter of that when under way, and may drop into laminar flow in the radiator, which if at all under par will not cope when the air flow is also minimal. I have discarded the mechanical fan altogether, and fitted a little lamp so that I can see whether the electric fan is actually running. You'd be surprised how little it runs on the open road. It more than copes in traffic. | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 990 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, Good exposition of the physics behind heat transfer - took me back to my Applied Science days. Mark, the reduced diameter of your mechanical fan will have a significant effect on the heat transfer from the radiator to the atmosphere as it will pull a lesser mass of air through the matrix compared to the standard fan assuming the blade pitch is the same. This would explain your problem with temperature rise when idling. You could try adding more pitch to the blades to compensate for this if there is enough clearance as your existing fan will be taking less power from the engine than the original fan. If not, an electric fan [or two] will be necessary. | ||
| Mark Taxis Frequent User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi David I think you are correct, I am trying to find a fan with greater pitch to increase the airflow. In a previous post Laurie suggested removing the thermostat and blocking off the by - pass this may give a better water flow through the radiator and hence assist with cooling. | ||
| Laurie Fox Frequent User Username: laurie_fox Post Number: 85 Registered: 6-2004 |
Mark Be careful on this one. What I have found is that the pump works better with the thermostat removed and the bypass open. About 20% flow increase which helps the cylinders at the back. This is with a fairly new radiator and may not work with an older one. You can check the radiator condition by connecting a vacuum gauge to the radiator drain tap and seeing what it reads at varying engine rpm. This will indicate how much the pump has to suck and thus how much pressure it can't deliver to the block. I reckon it ought not to be more than 1 lb/sq" if all is well. Laurie | ||
| Lindsay McNeil Unregistered guest Posted From: 120.151.66.159 |
Hi Mark, thanks for your interest in Liqiud Intelligence 115 Coolant. First of all treating your cooling system with L.I 239 first was a very good move to ensure that your cooling system was throughly clean of any scale and other containiments. I am pleased that you make mention of the great job the product did. Liquid Intelligence 115 is a non traditonal Hybrid Organic corrioson inhibited coolant. The Coolant meets and well exceeds a number of standards including BS 6580. Depsite the warnings of using this technology, I can assure you that you are not going to damage any part of your cooling system with this product as the problems ilustrated Daid Puttock only occur when adding n hexanoic acid which is not used in L.I.115 L.I 115 was developed over a period of time with a collabaration of Dupont and ciba as well as the University of Sydney and the Curtin University of New South Wales. L.I 115 ueses the best of old technology and the best of new. This product was released 5 years ago and was given a service interval of6years or 500,ooo km's but has recently been extended to 900,000 km's after laboratory testing of samples taken from 2 commercial vehicles with 900,000 km's. and still tested pure. We are not able to say just how long the coolant is going to last as we have no data or a crystal ball, but can say that the product is well exceeding the results first expected. I also urge and encourage members of the site to google ZDDP and learn and have a good understanding of what ZDDP is and the protetion it gives to older engines. A lack of ZDDP in engine oil is going to create serious problems for the top end of your engines, ie camshafts, cam followers and valves. Please feel free to contact me with any concerns or questions you may have on any of our products. Lindsay McNeil Email:lindsay@liquidintelligence115.com.au Mobile:0427 748 855 Website:www.liquidintelligence115.com.au (Message approved by david_gore) | ||
| David Gore Moderator Username: david_gore Post Number: 994 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have sent the following email to the above guest contributor in response to his post. "Lindsay, I approved your post with some reservations due to problems experienced with older R-R/B vehicles using modern coolants. I suggest you read the following thread VERY CAREFULLY and you may wish to have your post edited to amend some of your categoric statements as these may come back to haunt you: http://au.rrforums.net/forum/messages/17/6510.html Kind regards David" I suggest it would be prudent to wait for further advice from the contributor before acting on his advice above. | ||
| Robert Wort Grand Master Username: robert_wort Post Number: 411 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi David and Lindsay, I certainly support any new product that will improve the life of our cars but I certainly concur with David’s comment about reading the comments on the link he has provided. We all know for a fact that oils have improved immensely over the years and it would be fair to say that, had these oils been in existence when the PIIIs were in production in the immediate pre-war years, many more of their magnificent V12s would have survived. As the link will demonstrate, the same cannot be said for the vast majority of new-fangled coolants. I’m not suggesting for an instant that Liquid Intelligence is a bad product and it may be every bit as good as you say it is; but, and it is a very big BUT; such claims need to be backed up by not only independent trials, but have an unconditional guarantee that no harm will come to any of our engines. While we should ignore most of the hype that Rolls-Royce and Bentley motorcars have attracted, inasfar as our engines are concerned, in many ways, the Crewe built motors are very different from those produced by other motor manufacturers. Ethylene Glycol was virtually invented by Rolls-Royce to overcome the high altitude coolant problems associated with the Merlin engines of the Spitfires, Lancasters and other Merlin-powered engines of WWII vintage and all Rolls-Royce and Bentley engines were designed to run using this particular coolant on a 50/50 basis with water. It has served us admirably for nearly ¾ of a century and while Ethylene Glycol may be detrimental to engines in other makes of cars because of the use of different kinds of alloys in their make up; it has been, and still is perfect for our needs. It would be a brave (or possibly foolish) person to experiment with any other product unless he or she is wealthy enough to replace an engine should anything go pear shaped and I am in neither category and I assume that most other Members of this forum would be in the same situation;therefore, I can only reiterate on David’s comments Lindsay, read the link he has provided you with VERY CAREFULLY. | ||
| Patrick Lockyer. Grand Master Username: pat_lockyer Post Number: 836 Registered: 9-2004 |
I know nothing on the "Liquid Intelligence 115" but if it does what it says then it must be better than the ethylene glycol. Replace toxic ethylene glycol with safer propylene glycol however at the moment i am still useing the Hoat with no adverse problems at all. No probs within the system with silicone or lead etc. Your Comments please Lindsay. Cripes five years have gone useing Hoat so due for a change. Corrosion on the many prewar alloy engines make any changes from the toxic ethylene glycol a bad move it seems so soon to be banned I believe. 115 in OZ may be the way to go, here in the UK use propylene glycol, IMO. Just read this,well well: http://cc.derekharris.com/Antifreeze2011.pdf (Message edited by pat lockyer on 07 March 2011) | ||
| Martin Cutler Prolific User Username: martin_cutler Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Mark, I am not surprised by your comments about how much muck came out of the system, when I was working with Garth Selig, I worked on a number of MK6 /R Types with cooling issues, pulling the side plates off and thoughly cleaning out the block with a mix of water and compressed air. I had a special attachment for the air which was a copper pipe which could bent into the nooks and crannies of the block and get out the crud. The rear tap was removed from the block to ensure all the crud came out. Usually enough on the floor that when you cleaned up it filled a 4 litre ice cream container. Last sunday was particulary warm, and I drove my standard bodied MK 6 to Mollymook on the south coast. About a 4 hour trip each way. The car sat on 55-60mph with the air conditioning running, and I found that the temp sat on 75-78 degrees. I came back up Bulli Pass around 8pm, the ambient temp had dropped a bit then, but still a warm evening. The temp got up to 82 degrees, and I pulled over at the top to check the filter. When I inspected the top hose filter, it had almost filled up with crud, this from a motor that is fully rebuilt, with the block chemically cleaned. Tootling around town, the filter stays clean, but on a long run at higher speeds, there is still muck in the system. I cleaned the filter and continued on home, around another hour and a half, at highway speeds, the filter found a bit more muck by the time I got home. Needless to say, the car was hoisted, the cooling system drained and flushed, and new coolant added. My trip yesterday to Narellan in the pouring rain resulted in no muck in the filter, a round trip of about 70 miles. Cheers Marty | ||
| Mark Taxis Frequent User Username: mark_taxis Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Martin It was interesting to read about the silt in your block. Last weekend I took the car for a run to Toowoomba (about 3hrs drive each way) the temperature held around 75 degrees except on the steep hills when it climbed to 85 degress. When I got home I also found the water was a muddly colour. I have drained the system and back flushed. It seems the amount of silt is almost never ending!!! | ||
| Lindsay McNeil Unregistered guest Posted From: 120.151.66.159 |
Hi Mark, would you mind giving me a call on 02 6024 5038 as I would like to assisit you with your heating problems and dirty cooling system. The Liquid Intelligence 115 Coolant is now being used by the Honda Motor Cross team in place of their own Honda Coolant just as a matter of interest. I note this contributor has not responded to my previous recommendation that he become acquainted with problems experienced with older R-R/B engines by members using non-approved coolants and comment appropriately on this forum. I am concerned with his enthusiasm for promoting his product without due consideration of possible expensive adverse consequences if it proves to be unsuited to these engines. I suggest members should make themselves aware of the ramifications of using a product that has not been approved by R-R/B or been the subject of long-term evaluation and reports by recognised and trusted R-R/B professionals. If anyone is considering experimenting with any coolant that has not been professionally tested on their specific R-R/B vehicle for an extended period of time, I suggest they obtain an irrevocable bank guarantee in their favour for the cost of a replacement engine from the supplier before proceeding further. If the supplier has confidence in their product, they should not hesitate in providing this protection to the owner taking the risks associated with an untested product. (Message approved by david_gore) (Message edited by david_gore on 22 March 2011) | ||
| Lindsay McNeil Unregistered guest Posted From: 120.151.66.159 |
Hi Mark, Please note the telephone number should have been (02) 6024 5310 I do apologise for the typo error made. Regards, Lindsay McNeil (Message approved by david_gore) |
